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Match-up Discussion - Unbreakable That good feeling...

Savage8-8

Premium
Premium Supporter
And when I say safe I don't mean neutral but safe enough where you have to guess for the overhead low 50/50 , where if you know your match up and you know your opponent has a 45% combo off a low starter but only 20% off an overhead you can atleast block low to not eat the high damage. Even the playing ground considering you usually only get about 18% off a landed parry. I don't see how anyone can think that's not fair

Safe is Safe. Whether is neutral or -5. If the move is safe there is no risk with throwing it out. It has to be full combo punishable. There is nothing wrong with it being full combo punishable. I do agree that needs some tweaks though. The biggest and obvious one would be to lessen the recovery like the others said before. But if they cant do that than it needs to be faster IMO.
 

Savage8-8

Premium
Premium Supporter
I'll say this; I do think parry should be improved in some form or another....

BUT, only with Aura activated.

And when it's used, sheds the Aura in the process.

Nerfing the character after getting an improvement would be counter productive.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Nerfing the character after getting an improvement would be counter productive.
Expecting to be able to machine gun the improved parry with neutered consequences would also be counterproductive. There would still have to be regulation.

The ultimate point isn't making Unbreakable better, it's giving meaningful utility to Sub-Zero as a variation.
 

Savage8-8

Premium
Premium Supporter
Expecting to be able to machine gun the improved parry with neutered consequences would also be counterproductive. There would still have to be regulation.

The ultimate point isn't making Unbreakable better, it's giving meaningful utility to Sub-Zero as a variation.
So -20 to -28 is machine gunning? If not what is your definition of it?
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Premium Supporter
Considering that I play vs Foxy Grampa's tempest daily with Unbreakable, I feel like I have good knowledge of what this Variation seriously lacks, and what it needs to combat the highest tier opponents and top tier players that use him.

FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM:
The fundamental problem with the Parry is that there are no major strings with gaps in this game that the parry can punish.

So, considering that Unbreakable is supposed to be defensive, the parry is counterproductive, as you actually have to bank everything on it and take a major risk to get 25%, and ironically a "Defensive move", the parry is the one thing you risk getting fucked for more than anything else.

You risk the chance of getting blown up very easily unlike an armoured move, were the opponent doesnt have to block punish the move, they can walk back, NJP or crossover, all of these will counter the parry, so it is always a huge huge risk.

Here is how I see good changes for it:
1. The parry should recover instantly on projectiles, and grant sub 2 chips of meter (one for the parry move, one for parrying the projectile)

2. Only the MB Parry should parry physical attacks. You should be able to recover and block instantly right after the MB parry and be safe, but not do any reversals or attacks once you recover, exactly as if you delayed your wake up animation the longest it can go. You can get it wrong, but you will be safe, but it will cost you a bar and you will have to block.

AURA:
1. Should build meter the same way as Kotal's Blood God. Absolutely no reason for this to be different, completely inconsistent with the game.
2. MB Shatter on the Aura should do way more damage, he should be getting 30+/35% for Armoured Shatters.
3. Cancels into regular aura from F42, B12, 12 and 24 should all be as plus as F4 Aura is.
4. MB Aura damage should be buffed while in MB Aura.
5. Opponent damage should be scaled more in MB aura.
6. Shattering the Aura on hit should give sub grounded hit advantage to continue his combo and not send them full screen.
7. Shattering the Aura should be -3/-4 on block, giving the MB parry a chance to fold into his gameplay.

I am still confident that Unbreakable will get looked at in Season 2, as long as the community shows that no one is happy with how it is currently, nor should anyone be for Cryo.
 
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WiseM0nkey

welcome to the ButtSlam
No, her parry is meterless or 1 bar to combo bro


And the quote made wasn't responding to a comparison. You said "other parries don't combo", nobody replied to that with anything about other parties being stronger or worse, just that they DO combo.
oh shit didnt know that, ok.
 

ColdSpine

"I wore those colors before you"
Considering that I play vs Foxy Grampa's tempest daily with Unbreakable, I feel like I have good knowledge of what this Variation seriously lacks, and what it needs to combat the highest tier opponents and top tier players that use him.

FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM:
The fundamental problem with the Parry is that there are no major strings with gaps in this game that the parry can punish.

So, considering that Unbreakable is supposed to be defensive, the parry is counterproductive, as you actually have to bank everything on it and take a major risk to get 25%, and ironically a "Defensive move", the parry is the one thing you risk getting fucked for more than anything else.

You risk the chance of getting blown up very easily unlike an armoured move, were the opponent doesnt have to block punish the move, they can walk back, NJP or crossover, all of these will counter the parry, so it is always a huge huge risk.

Here is how I see good changes for it:
1. The parry should recover instantly on projectiles, and grant sub 2 chips of meter (one for the parry move, one for parrying the projectile)

2. Only the MB Parry should parry physical attacks. You should be able to recover and block instantly right after the MB parry and be safe, but not do any reversals or attacks once you recover, exactly as if you delayed your wake up animation the longest it can go. You can get it wrong, but you will be safe, but it will cost you a bar and you will have to block.

AURA:
1. Should build meter the same way as Kotal's Blood God. Absolutely no reason for this to be different, completely inconsistent with the game.
2. MB Shatter on the Aura should do way more damage, he should be getting 30+/35% for Armoured Shatters.
3. Cancels into regular aura from F42, B12, 12 and 24 should all be as plus as F4 Aura is.
4. MB Aura damage should be buffed while in MB Aura.
5. Opponent damage should be scaled more in MB aura.
6. Shattering the Aura on hit should give sub grounded hit advantage to continue his combo and not send them full screen.
7. Shattering the Aura should be -3/-4 on block, giving the MB parry a chance to fold into his gameplay.

I am still confident that Unbreakable will get looked at in Season 2, as long as the community shows that no one is happy with how it is currently, nor should anyone be for Cryo.
Any idea if a new patch coming soon so i can get my hopes high again for this variation?
 

Lokheit

Noob
I'll say this; I do think parry should be improved in some form or another....

BUT, only with Aura activated.

And when it's used, sheds the Aura in the process.
Actually, it could be a good idea with the right approach.

Because of the weird way he was patched, Unbreakable now has a crisis of personality as he does low damage because he is defensive thanks to the aura, but he needs to shatter the aura before combos to access his upgrades so he is supposed to play without it in the neutral game.

If the aura in addition to making the ice bomb deal damage would also upgrade the parry so it's either safe while the aura is active or it absorbs 1 hit during the recovery animation (like Crystaline Tremor but only during Parry recovery) and the aura is always shattered no matter if the parry is good or not, he will be able to keep the aura in the neutral game, access to a safer parry (that he needs to recharge with another aura after the first use, so not broken) and then he could use a string-aura-string combo as the parry shattered the aura.

So basically:

While Aura is active:

- No chip damage (plus reduced damage received with EX version).

- Ice Burst/Frost Bomb deals increased damage but shatters the aura.

- Parry becomes safe (or the recovery absorbs 1 hit), but also shatters the aura.

He probably would need something else, but I think it's a step in the right direction if NRS want to keep the Aura combos.
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Premium Supporter
@colt Just tagging to let you see that the Unbreakable players are still passionate about this variation.
 

ZeZe

The smart stuff!
Make it 10.

There are multiple threads about UB Sub lacking and multiple mentions about that in random Sub-0 related threads. It's just some of us got tired with pointing out the obvious repeatedly.
 

RunwayMafia

Shoot them. Shoot them all.
9 ppl in 2 page thread?!
Don't let that fool you. There are SEVERAL players interested in this variation but there is just no point because it's damn near depressing how odd this variation is designed. Yet it would be seemingly quite easy to make UB viable.

I had no interest in Subzero UNTIL I saw Unbreakable.

#LessRecoveryOnParry ;) ;)
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Premium Supporter
9 ppl in 2 page thread?!
Yea, thats exactly my point, its not used a lot, but for obvious reasons because it doesn't cut it, but surely the lower tier variations need the most attention.

Those of us that play it would hate to see it completely slip away when it has the chance to be incredible.

Do mind if I ask how you rate Unbreakable?
 

Eldriken

You are marked for termination.
Forum General
Buff Unbreakable's mask. It looks silly most of the time. >_> Make it cover more of his face.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
What IF the regular aura reduced damage by 3% and you could then do another one with MB to get even higher damage reduction than the regular MB?
 

Lokheit

Noob
Random thought:

Make the aura (both versions) decrease the cancel advantage on block of moves you block.

This way you can insert the parry during strings you normally can't making it more useful but requiring a lot of match up study.
 

boba_buster

Noob saibot
All the talk about possible buffs... Just make parry semi safe and that's all he needs!
He would literally be perfectly useable at that point , for everything that he lacks, atleast he would have a safe parry...
Then instead of eating your opponents highest damage combo , you have a 50/50 shot of being able to block! They still get a free 50/50 and free block pressure for your failed attempt of a parry , I don't see what's not completely fair about that
 

boba_buster

Noob saibot
If they gave it say 5 frames of recovery , it would be safe enough to block 6 frame reversals but still unreactable to any thing around 15 frames , so after a failed parry you would be forced to block and not able to fuzzy guard right?
 

Lokheit

Noob
If they gave it say 5 frames of recovery , it would be safe enough to block 6 frame reversals but still unreactable to any thing around 15 frames , so after a failed parry you would be forced to block and not able to fuzzy guard right?
Opponents can still throw their moves during your parry so they land during those 5 frames of recovery, not so safe. I think making it 100% safe at the cost of removing the aura would be a good option as you would need to prepare (and waste) the aura to make it safe. But "semi safe" on a non-hitting move is the same than "not safe at all" against a player that knows the match up. It's not the same than forcing them to block and then having 5 frames advantage for a 50/50, they can start their animation while the parry is on.
 

boba_buster

Noob saibot
Yea but with only a 5 frame recovery no one will be able to reliably set that up , although it is possible I don't think it's repeatable, it would have to be a very slow move like subs hammer and at that point they would be taking a huge chance