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Question - Tarkatan Tarkatan vs Jax/Lao

Been playing a bit of Tarkatan lately, and when it comes to Jax or Lao, im kinda lost on what to do. Is the general consensus to pick Acidic instead ?

If they have bar, they can armour through rekkas every time, no matter what. Usually, my solution to this is not going for rekkas when my opponent has fast launching armour, and instead use stagger and 50/50's into the flip. Except meterless flip gets punished as well, and Lao doesn't even need meter to do that every time. We also all saw Dragon get absolutely slaughtered by Jupiter recently as well. Is there a playstyle around this, or is it usually better to swap to acidic ?
 

Tweedy

Noob
Armoring through rekkas doesn't really shift the match up too drastically. Assuming you're doing 50/50s into the rekkas, they're essentially spending bar to punish the 50/50.

Jax is problematic for a bunch of different reasons. He can punish stuff that's typically hard to punish with dash punch and F3, he breaks Alien's EX flip really easily, obviously punishes flip with standing 1, he can actually anti air Alien. This is without a doubt Alien's hardest match up IMO.

Versus Lao you definitely have to avoid going into F134 as much, because you'll have to settle for a lot of low risk/reward snags to stop him from just fuzzy guarding and punishing everything. Obviously F13 and F134 staggers are out of question since spin punishes those as well. It's also hard to earn respect and lock Lao down for B3/F4 mix ups, since a lot of Lao players will just wake up spin, wake up jump, etc. This actually becomes pretty problematic when you're relying on meaties and mix ups that aren't too fast and have bad recovery.

When pressuring Lao, I think the most success would be found through the B11 string. This way you've got more real mix ups with B11 flip being an overhead, B113 xx flip being a low overhead, and B113 being a low low. Besides that you've obviously got a +2 stagger that you can throw with. With this 33/33/33 option instead of a 50/50, you're less likely to be wrong, which is what you need vs Lao.

Once you've earned respect with variations of the B113 string, you can go into B3 xx whatever, or F4 xx whatever. Alien has so many little mix ups with those two normals, that earning respect becomes DJ Khaled levels of keys. Lately I've found F4 xx snag to be practically unblockable.

I hope my rambling helps.
 
Armoring through rekkas doesn't really shift the match up too drastically. Assuming you're doing 50/50s into the rekkas, they're essentially spending bar to punish the 50/50.

Jax is problematic for a bunch of different reasons. He can punish stuff that's typically hard to punish with dash punch and F3, he breaks Alien's EX flip really easily, obviously punishes flip with standing 1, he can actually anti air Alien. This is without a doubt Alien's hardest match up IMO.

Versus Lao you definitely have to avoid going into F134 as much, because you'll have to settle for a lot of low risk/reward snags to stop him from just fuzzy guarding and punishing everything. Obviously F13 and F134 staggers are out of question since spin punishes those as well. It's also hard to earn respect and lock Lao down for B3/F4 mix ups, since a lot of Lao players will just wake up spin, wake up jump, etc. This actually becomes pretty problematic when you're relying on meaties and mix ups that aren't too fast and have bad recovery.

When pressuring Lao, I think the most success would be found through the B11 string. This way you've got more real mix ups with B11 flip being an overhead, B113 xx flip being a low overhead, and B113 being a low low. Besides that you've obviously got a +2 stagger that you can throw with. With this 33/33/33 option instead of a 50/50, you're less likely to be wrong, which is what you need vs Lao.

Once you've earned respect with variations of the B113 string, you can go into B3 xx whatever, or F4 xx whatever. Alien has so many little mix ups with those two normals, that earning respect becomes DJ Khaled levels of keys. Lately I've found F4 xx snag to be practically unblockable.

I hope my rambling helps.
Actually helped a LOT. When you think about it like they're spending bar to punish the 50/50's, it does seem a lot less significant. Ive never used the b113 variations of pressure, so will definitely start trying that as well. Do you think Acidic is necessary for any of Tarkatans MU's? Or you just need to play them a lot differently ?
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
You really shouldn't worry too much about Jax punishing you with s1, yes, it's possible but it's a 1f link.
I also don't think Acidic is very good for Jax, I'd personally pick Tarkatan since it has fast armor that's harder to break.
 

GamerBlake90

Blue Blurs for Life!
You really shouldn't worry too much about Jax punishing you with s1, yes, it's possible but it's a 1f link.
That has not stopped me from punishing Kitana's projectile consistently with Scorpion's S3. Her projectile is -8 on block and my S3 is seven frames, so one-frame link, boys.

Sorry, I know this may come across as bragging, but my point is that while it may be a tight window to punish, it is something you would be wise to keep in mind when playing the match-up at a high level.

@TheArrow - I am to assume you've been watching the replay with Dragon vs. Jupiter? Have you noticed anything that may be worth taking notes on?
 

Tweedy

Noob
Actually helped a LOT. When you think about it like they're spending bar to punish the 50/50's, it does seem a lot less significant. Ive never used the b113 variations of pressure, so will definitely start trying that as well. Do you think Acidic is necessary for any of Tarkatans MU's? Or you just need to play them a lot differently ?
Tbh I really only play Tarkatan. The problem with trying Acidic vs Jax, is that you're giving up EX DB2 in Tarkatan, which Jax has trouble shredding through. He breaks flip and probably snag, pretty easily.

Other than that I don't have much input.
 

Tweedy

Noob
You really shouldn't worry too much about Jax punishing you with s1, yes, it's possible but it's a 1f link.
I also don't think Acidic is very good for Jax, I'd personally pick Tarkatan since it has fast armor that's harder to break.
I don't know every TYM tag but I could list player after player that punishes me with Jax's S1, Kang's F1, etc. I can even do it.
 
That has not stopped me from punishing Kitana's projectile consistently with Scorpion's S3. Her projectile is -8 on block and my S3 is seven frames, so one-frame link, boys.

Sorry, I know this may come across as bragging, but my point is that while it may be a tight window to punish, it is something you would be wise to keep in mind when playing the match-up at a high level.

@TheArrow - I am to assume you've been watching the replay with Dragon vs. Jupiter? Have you noticed anything that may be worth taking notes on?
Not really, thats why i made the thread. I dont really see what Dragon could have done differently. Tweedy has given me a bit to think about though, might have an easier time in it now. Thanks!
 

Tweedy

Noob
Another thing i'd like to note. @TheArrow

When mixing people up with B11 xx flip, B113 xx flip, B113, you might want to substitute letting B113 rock, with B113 xx snag, for two reasons. One, snag grants a hard knockdown and B113 does not, and two, the second low in B113 is so fast, that it opens up the possibility of fuzzy guarding.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
You really shouldn't worry too much about Jax punishing you with s1, yes, it's possible but it's a 1f link.
I also don't think Acidic is very good for Jax, I'd personally pick Tarkatan since it has fast armor that's harder to break.
If one frame punishes were unviable then Kenjutsu Kenshi would have a safe armored launcher against like 7 characters lol.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Isn't it already hard to consistently punish because of the wonky ass blockstun? Lasher Takeda's BF2 also comes to mind, just very strange and unusual blockstun.
The problem with punishing Lasher's low whip trip is that it'll often end up knocking you out of the range of your fastest punishers. And may even be less negative if it was blocked meaty. Kenjutsu's EX spinning blade will always leave you point blank in his face with the same window at least.
 

Tweedy

Noob
Isn't it already hard to consistently punish because of the wonky ass blockstun? Lasher Takeda's BF2 also comes to mind, just very strange and unusual blockstun.
The blockstun on specific moves is consistent, so if you rep out the punish vs a specific move in practice mode, it's very possible to get it down. The problem is that the blockstuns are so different, that it's pretty impossible to punish all of the weird stuff. I used to be able to punish Cage's nutpunch every time with Lao's F2, which is a 1 framer, but I still have trouble punishing Kano ball.