Match-Up Discussion - Tarkatan Tarkatan Alien MU Discussion

[Dankster Morgan]

I noticed we don't have one for Tarkatan, so I decided to make it. It's been a bit, so now let's discuss any matchup particular strategies, or any niche findings for a specific character. Who are you finding difficult? Who are you finding easy? This is specifically for the Tarkatan variation.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

For starters, Cassie is really hard to me. She punishes flip, so we are almost never safe if we want to do anything substantial, so we are forced to play very high risk. Alien's moves blow ass on whiff and her B1 will whiff punish a whole lot of our shit, so we need to go jedi mode and be super careful not to whiff, and be sure to guess right on our launchers.

 

[xKhaoTik]

I think he beats kitana

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I think he beats kitana

I think feels even. I'm not familiar enough with Alien to feel confident with a number but it feels close. Why do you think he wins?

 

[xKhaoTik]

I think feels even. I'm not familiar enough with Alien to feel confident with a number but it feels close. Why do you think he wins?

She doesn't really get much from a blocked tail flip. The only thing that punishes it is d3, and that's only from a blocked one from upclose. Hard to zone when his crawl goes under fans for a full combo, and the low reaching from absurd ranges to check/punish fans is annoying. Obviously his pressure is better than hers.

Not saying she gets bodied or anything but I would give the win to him if anyone won the MU

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Yeah that's good logic. To best Alien you need something significant off if tail flip on block. You can't really pressure with rekkas though because she can easily blow him up with EX DP for like 30%. She also keeps him grounded pretty well. But other than that and what you mentioned it isn't really slanted in anyone's favor too badly.

 

[Darth-Nero]

I have to disagree with Khao. While Tarkatan does indeed have better pressure than Kitana, Tarkatan is a character that needs to get in and kitana have one of the best keep away game in mkx. He can't jump to get in against kitana and his crawl wont reach her for a full combo on her fullscreen zoning (where she usually is). She's the one who would usually zone his shit out and bait his crawl in attempts for a full combo punish and send him back to fullscreen, rinse and repeat.

It's a 6-4 for Kitana or 5-5 at best. Honest opinion, not up/down playing anybody here.

 

[Tweedy]

I'll ramble about some match ups.

Raiden is an interesting match up because he can punish flip and rekkas. Normally you can go to one or the other, and one will be completely safe. Like versus Kitana you can just use flip instead of rekkas. Unless you perfectly delay the first rekka, which is like a 2 frame link, EX shocker will punish them. If you do do that delay perfectly, he can read it and punish with F1.

Jacqui and Kano can also punish both, however, Kano doesn't get a full combo for punishing flip; Jacqui doesn't always get a full combo for punishing rekkas.

I don't find Goro to be that hard. S1 or B1 xx EX DB2 breaks EX punchwalk. Just don't go into rekkas like crazy because he punishes those for free. Not for free but you know what I mean. Goro is free to Alien's jumps. Alien also has a good post D1 meta with flip/snag/rekkas.

Kano is problematic because you give up neutral control to him, since he has a good projectile and you do not. He also does more damage than Alien and is much safer. I think Cutthroat is probably a losing match up for Tarkatan. Kano also has a safe 11 frame knee in F4, a good D4, and other stuff like that, that helps him compensate for Alien's insane neutral. As I mentioned above he can punish both flip and rekkas. His backdash is also problematic for Tarkatan. The other variations are probably too weak to win, even with these specific match up points carrying over.

Mystic is fine, just never go into rekkas lololol. Really, though, don't go into them unless you really feel like a mix up will hit. Punish regular push at all times with B3.

Kotal isn't problematic but I figured i'd comment on him since I played the match up from the other end. Rekkas punish swords, you can option select B122 staggers and B122 low sword with EX DB2 because of it's speed. Kotal gets bopped imo.

Lao is probably 5-5. I play Zoofs a lot who is one of the only people who didn't drop Lao. If you get sloppy with your meaties, a flip gets blocked, rekkas get blocked, you're getting hit by spin. However, I find them to be just as easy to bait, as they are to get hit by. Maybe Zoofs just sucks. I mean he is a cuck.

I posted my notes on Liu Kang and Kitana in the other thread. I'll paste em over here.

Liu Kang - I don't think he beats Tarkatan at all tbh. Being able to punish B2 for a full combo with Alien's standing 2, having launching armor that Liu can't really break, etc, is pretty big. Kang can punish flip, but tbh his rekkas punishes are whatever. I don't care if you spend a bar to flying kick me bruh nah mean cuz you only gettin like 12 percent.

Kitana controls space. While zoning isn't a huge bigboy omg deal on this game, when you don't have a projectile and your opponent has a pretty good one, that gives them quite a bit of control in the neutral. Obviously Alien has B3 and snag, although, they become less relevant if Kitana is just going to throw fans or jump. Both things will blow them up.

Kitana wins air exchanges vs Alien. This is very relevant because of my first statement. Alien players jump, because they can. Jump 2 does not lose to much in this game. Kitana's jump 2 is faster than Alien's and her fans of course will catch the monster as well. A good Kitana player will use those two moves and blow up jumping, even from Lord Alien the Don himself.

Another problem is that Alien players think "well I can just krawl or EX pounce through projectiles". What if they get blocked? You're risking getting full combo'd, and in the case of EX pounce, being out of a bar, for really almost nothing. Getting full combo'd because you tried to close the distance or get 12%(a bar for 12%, mind you), is terrible risk/reward.

I'll conclude my thoughts with rekkas. Imo rekkas should only be used for confirming mix ups in match ups like Kitana, where they can easily punish them. If you're constantly going into them off of F134 and other strings that people can block at a high rate, you're doing it wrong. Kitana doesn't give a fuck about rekkas. BUT. But boys..... She can't punish flip, and i'm assuming has a hard time punishing snag.

I believe using rekkas to confirm only true 50/50s, reducing jumping, and cutting out krawl/pounce, will make this match up much easier. I hope my rambling will help players who are new to the character, in this seemingly troublesome match up.

Sub Zero can beat Tarkatan, mainly because if he guesses right a few times he just does enough damage to win. Other than that there's no real positives that you can give Sub in this MU lol.

I think Tarkatan beats Boneshaper. Imposter is tricky because Alien can't consistently anti air tricky portal. At least I can't. You really have to read it with NJP, which is a risk. When I play Stabs he runs up and hits me when I NJP a lot. Alien's S1 and D2 suck. Well his S1 doesn't suck, but for this purpose it kinda does.

Takeda obviously gets mauled. You can go into rekkas, and as long as you don't get predictable with your staggers and finishes, he'll never get a punish. Idc about Ronin's armor. 13% for a bar when you already blocked a mix up is not very good. It doesn't sway a MU.

I've played vs quite a few Quan's actually. I feel like Warlock does pretty good vs Tarkatan. Pretty good as in 5-5. The other variations do slightly worse than Warlock. I did discover when playing @Rude that EX DB2 isn't super reliable when escaping Socerer's portal, because it has poor armored active frames. Quan still gets mauled in this variation and EX DB2 is better than having no multi hitting armor.

Not sure what to think about Reptile. I get bopped by Aura. It's probably just because he's my dad. It is problematic getting past forceballs without a projectile. Reptile is also safer than Alien. It's probably 5-5, though, and i'm just not as good as Aura.

I've played a lot vs @TopTierHarley and we both think that Alien beats D'vorah. The armor really makes a difference here, because Alien is one of the rare characters that beat D'vorah in the neutral. Krawling out of puddle is also boss. D'vorah is safer than Alien, however, just like in any other MU, Alien is only as unsafe as you make him. If you go for big money EX overheads, you're gonna get punished sometimes. If you just go into rekkas and regular flip, you'll be fine vs D'vorah.

I do have Johnny's to play but I tend to just use Kotal vs them, since Kotal does fine. I know that Sonic thinks that Alien loses to Johnny, so i'll have to look into that.

Jax is obviously really hard since he can punish literally everything. There's no point in going over anything specifically, he can punish everything. lol

 

[Tweedy]

And there's no way that Tarkatan beats Kitana. Kitana gives him too many problems. Controls space(like really well), beats Alien in the air, is hard for Alien to anti air, punishes rekkas with ease, doesn't punish flip but it's just a 7% move. She can punish EX flip just fine.

A lot of people think it's advantage Kitana. I personally think it's 5-5. Imo there's no way it's advantage Tarkatan. There's just too many things going for Kitana. She renders a lot of his dumb stuff near-useless, like jump 2, snag, back 3, rekkas ,etc.

 

[Tweedy]

I'm not sure about Mileena. It's probably 5-5 imo.

The rekka meta game is basically EX roll if Alien delays and continues, regular roll or maybe standing 2 if Alien staggers. No guaranteed punish, just a guessing game. Obviously at that point Mileena should have already blocked a 50/50, so the fact that she has to guess right to punish, does not in anyway make it a bad MU. It can be hard to meaty Mileena with Alien. You have to really put an emphasis on Alien's poke meta, as Sonic did vs Foxy. F1 as a meaty is really hard, you only have a couple frames to stuff roll, and B1/S1 are obviously irrelevant vs roll.

The neutral is better for Alien than it is for practically anyone else in this MU I think. Out-range her with snag and B3, bop her with F4 when she respects those moves. S2 cancelled into rekkas is always good, D4 is beast. Tarkatan gives up the acid projectiles that imo sways the MU in Alien's favor. Without a projectile to contend with sais, I believe the MU is 5-5. This is just from my experience and point of view.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Kitana doesn't give a fuck about rekkas.

And why is that? Because ex rising blades?

If that's the case, wouldn't EVERYONE not give a fuck about rekkas? Lol

 

[Tweedy]

And why is that? Because ex rising blades?

If that's the case, wouldn't EVERYONE not give a fuck about rekkas? Lol

No, because you need an armored move that's 13 frames or faster, otherwise Alien can just stop the rekkas and block. Also, a lot of 13 frame or faster moves don't lead to full combos. That's why Jacqui isn't a big deal, and Liu Kang. Imo at least.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I'm gonna chime in on Sub-Zero here. Iv mained Grandmaster since day one, and I can see it from both perspectives.

Alien dominates him in open space, and tail nullifies Klone from any distance. It's very easy to punish Sub's B2, with stand 2 for 36% and a bar. He can armor rekkas but he has to spend a bar for barely any damage. All of Sub's strings are pretty negative on block, so Alien can send him to mix city after blocking just about anything. There isn't a whole lot to say about the midscreen. It's pretty dismal for Sub.

All that changes in the corner. Sub gets the one important hit midscreen and its Alien's turn to guess for HIS life in the corner. Conservative use of B2 and if Sub instead relies on the untechable throw into Klone and B33 there could be serious trouble for Alien because close Klone post knockdown and canceled out of 12 because of Alien's hit box.

Alien for sure wins, but it's not as bad as it may seem. It's pretty slanted in our favor but because of the way the corner game of Sub is, you could know the matchup, you could play it right, your character could win the matchup, and you could still easily lose.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

And why is that? Because ex rising blades?

If that's the case, wouldn't EVERYONE not give a fuck about rekkas? Lol

Yeah, rekkas can't be used for pressure against a Kitana who is sitting on a bar. They are mainly for confirming meter spending since 50/50 into ex flip isn't really hit confirmable. You're already gonna get fucked if Kitana blocks right, so may as well make sure you don't waste a bar as well.

 

[xKhaoTik]

And there's no way that Tarkatan beats Kitana. Kitana gives him too many problems. Controls space(like really well), beats Alien in the air, is hard for Alien to anti air, punishes rekkas with ease, doesn't punish flip but it's just a 7% move. She can punish EX flip just fine.

A lot of people think it's advantage Kitana. I personally think it's 5-5. Imo there's no way it's advantage Tarkatan. There's just too many things going for Kitana. She renders a lot of his dumb stuff near-useless, like jump 2, snag, back 3, rekkas ,etc.

I get what you're saying but I think it's a tad bit of downplaying. You keep saying "a good Kitana can do this, a good Kitana can do that", which is fine and I agree with, but what about what a good alien player can do?

First off, you're making it seem like alien is throwing out crawl. That's a move a good alien is going to use ON REACTION, much like how sub uses slide, mileena uses roll, etc. Alien can literally duck and punish any fan with b3 from any range. A good alien will also do that. There's plenty of ways to get in on kitana without jumping and a good alien player will make use of that.

Also, alien so abuse tf out tail flip against her. She literally can't do anything about it unless he does it dead in her face, and even then, the only thing guaranteed is a d3.

 

[xKhaoTik]

No, because you need an armored move that's 13 frames or faster, otherwise Alien can just stop the rekkas and block. Also, a lot of 13 frame or faster moves don't lead to full combos. That's why Jacqui isn't a big deal, and Liu Kang. Imo at least.

Okay this I didn't know. Oh my...this helps alot actually lol

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Okay this I didn't know. Oh my...this helps alot actually lol

That's an option select. I try to do it but it seems hard to me

 

[xKhaoTik]

That's an option select. I try to do it but it seems hard to me

It certainly can't be harder than the option select against sektors f212/f212 back back strings, and I'm REALLY good at punishing them

 

[Tweedy]

I get what you're saying but I think it's a tad bit of downplaying. You keep saying "a good Kitana can do this, a good Kitana can do that", which is fine and I agree with, but what about what a good alien player can do?

First off, you're making it seem like alien is throwing out crawl. That's a move a good alien is going to use ON REACTION, much like how sub uses slide, mileena uses roll, etc. Alien can literally duck and punish any fan with b3 from any range. A good alien will also do that. There's plenty of ways to get in on kitana without jumping and a good alien player will make use of that.

Also, alien so abuse tf out tail flip against her. She literally can't do anything about it unless he does it dead in her face, and even then, the only thing guaranteed is a d3.

Look you can't call me a downplayer without reading the entirety of my post, guy. My whole point is that Alien players need to stop jumping so much, that Alien players need to stop throwing out krawl like maniacs. Even when doing those things more sparingly, Kitana controls the neutral.

What is this nonsense about punishing fans with B3? First of all, that doesn't work. Secondly, Alien has trouble anti airing Kitana and will eat a fresh jump 2 if they just throw out predictable B3s in between fans. I mean shit they'll just eat more fans, if not a jump 2. B3 is not a great option. Snag >

She can't do anything about meterless tail flip. Alien is -7 and gets 7% if he lands. We're not talking about a full combo mix up that's safe.

I understand that I put you in a 3-0 bodybag in the ESL, so there's no possible way that it isn't 7-3 in the character's favor that you lost to, but at least read and try to comprehend my post. I took a lot of time making it and did not downplay whatsoever. Jeez

Edit: I'm one of the few Alien players, or people that know what's up with Alien, that says that Alien doesn't lose to her. What do I have to do around here to not be a downplayer? Even Pig said that Kitana wins.

Edit 2: Also, I realize that the comment on our ESL set was not needed. I'm just really tired of being called a downplayer when i'm clearly an optimistic Alien player. Calling me a downplayer for saying that what is believed to be a bad MU is 5-5, has to have some exterior motivation. The ESL set was all that I could think of.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Look you can't call me a downplayer without reading the entirety of my post, guy. My whole point is that Alien players need to stop jumping so much, that Alien players need to stop throwing out krawl like maniacs. Even when doing those things more sparingly, Kitana controls the neutral.

What is this nonsense about punishing fans with B3? First of all, that doesn't work. Secondly, Alien has trouble anti airing Kitana and will eat a fresh jump 2 if they just throw out predictable B3 in between fans. I mean shit they'll just eat more fans, if not a jump 2. B3 is not a great option. Snag >

She can't do anything about meterless tail flip. Alien is -7 and gets 7% if he lands. We're not talking about a full combo mix up that's safe.

I understand that I put you in a 3-0 bodybag in the ESL, so there's no possible way that it isn't 7-3 in the character's favor that you lost to, but at least read and try to comprehend my post. I took a lot of time making it and did not downplay whatsoever. Jeez

Edit: I'm one of the few Alien players, or people that know what's up with Alien, that are saying that Alien doesn't lose to her. What do I have to do around here to not be a downplayer? Even Pig said that Kitana wins.

I wasn't even talking about esl. Where did that even come from and you know damn well that you lagged your way to that victory. We can play again if you want since you seem so proud to call that a victory.

And how does Alien have trouble anti airing Kitana? Does he not have an armored spin that's fast and launches? Thats a form of downplaying lol

And I couldn't care less what pig says. No shade to him but there is something called an opinion. No one said it was 7-3. I just said if anyone was to win, it would be him.

 

[Tweedy]

I wasn't even talking about esl. Where did that even come from and you know damn well that you lagged your way to that victory. We can play again if you want since you seem so proud to call that a victory.

And how does Alien have trouble anti airing Kitana? Does he not have an armored spin that's fast and launches? Thats a form of downplaying lol

And I can care less what pig says. No shade to him but there is something called an opinion. No one said it was 7-3. I just said if anyone was to win, it would be him.

Yes, because Alien's EX spin is totally the same as Lao's. I mean a second ago you didn't even know that 13 frame or faster moves are guaranteed punishes vs Alien's rekkas, but you're totally right about EX spin being a great anti air. I would love to spend that meter so my tail can go through you as you float, or as you jump over me because it doesn't have an omni-directional hitbox like Lao's spin or Sektor's flame.. Such a great idea and helps the MU so much thank you bro much love.

I already posted my thoughts. In order to keep this thread civil i'm just gonna leave it alone. Tarkatan wins 7-3, there you go mr. potatohead. I'm a downplayer.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Tweedy, does U3 have difficulty anti airing Kitana? It seems like a really good anti air, and I have some luck against Sub-Zero and his jump 1 is retarded.

 

[Tweedy]

Tweedy, does U3 have difficulty anti airing Kitana? It seems like a really good anti air, and I have some luck against Sub-Zero and his jump 1 is (soap bar in my mouth).

It depends on the spacing. If she floats right above your head, it'll whiff just as badly as a D2.

Instant air NJP is the best anti air vs Kitana imo. It's 8 frames, really good range.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Alright I gotcha.

 

[TopTierHarley]

Yea Debbie vs Alien is ass. Im sure I could fuzzy the blockstrings offline so that's whatever, but the neutral is so skewed in his favor, I have to stand so far away and try to bait a b3. Puddle is also not an issue cause he has multiple ways of escaping i.e. crawl, pounce, and I'm sure he can rekka out as well.