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Breakthrough - Sub-Zero SZ 4Oct patch thread.

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
As far as I know, it's not possible, and I tried it a bunch. Here are the ones that give you 24%:

EX Slide, NJP, JIP, run, 1, run, B12~Slide
EX Slide, wait for opponent to fall from freeze, B12, 123~Slide

And the one that gives 25%:

EX Slide, run, D2, run, F4~Slide (only works on males).
No need to do the run after the 1. After the 1, you can just do B12 and keep on. This B12 has a good pressuring range. Been doing this in aeons.
 
Holy fuck.

Parry, JIP, B12~Aura, B12~EN Burst, run, B12, 123~Slide = 39%

I'm only getting 38% with 13 hits off this combo. Maybe I'm fucking it somewhere. Any ideas?

Btw does anyone know how to get higher damage meterless off the parry?

Parry, JIP, B12, Aura, 242, Run, 123, Slide = 29%

Does anyone know how to squeeze a couple more % out of this? I've tried 1~123 and 1~B12 after the 242 and 29% is still the max that I can get.
 
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Show us your kombo, and we'll tell you.

This dude above did only 12 hits with 39%.
I'm doing it exactly like how he did it. That's what's confusing me. Maybe I'm fucking up somewhere. But I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right.

Parry, JIP, B12~Aura, B12~EN Burst, run, B12, 123~Slide = 39%

Edit: Just triple checked. I'm doing it just like he said. I dunno. Maybe he got the % wrong?

Btw does anyone know how to get higher damage meterless off the parry?

Parry, JIP, B12, Aura, 242, Run, 123, Slide = 29%

Does anyone know how to squeeze a couple more % out of this? I've tried 1~123 and 1~B12 after the 242 and 29% is still the max that I can get.
 
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Lokheit

Noob
I'm doing it exactly like how he did it. That's what's confusing me. Maybe I'm fucking up somewhere. But I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right.

Parry, JIP, B12~Aura, B12~EN Burst, run, B12, 123~Slide = 39%

Edit: Just triple checked. I'm doing it just like he did.

Btw does anyone know how to get higher damage meterless off the parry?

Parry, JIP, B12, Aura, 242, Run, 123, Slide = 29%

Does anyone know how to squeeze a couple more % out of this? I've tried 1~123 and 1~B12 after the 242 and 29% is still the max that I can get.
Yeah that one is 38% for sure.

40% without the parry. 39% without the parry and without the JIP

EDIT: About the meterless version, you can get 31% finishing in B12xxburst instead.
 
Yeah that one is 38% for sure.

40% without the parry. 39% without the parry and without the JIP

EDIT: About the meterless version, you can get 31% finishing in B12xxburst instead.
Okay so I'm not crazy. Lol thanks for the confirmation. Also thanks for the meterless version. It was driving me crazy trying to squeeze out a couple more %.
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
Okay so I'm not crazy. Lol thanks for the confirmation. Also thanks for the meterless version. It was driving me crazy trying to squeeze out a couple more %.
Yeah, sorry for the typo on that, and, @Lokheit, thanks for the correction. I blame the unbridled joy I was experiencing at suddenly being able to break 35% with Unbreakable midscreen for only one bar =)
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
Finally getting proper games in with cryo
Still dropping a lot of combos so eating a lot of unnecessary damage cos of it

But the big change i still cant get used to is the reduced cancel advantage on f42
So hard to build my new confirms
d4 on hit run up f4
- confirm jump back with cmd grab for full combo
- confirm buttons with f42 ex ice ball
- confirm block with burst/cmd grab

Also if they back dash you cant even do f42 ex ice ball to chase cos the reduced cancel advantage lets them block ex ice ball in time. You just have to guess the 2 is going to hit and cancel into slide. Which if it didnt properly chase, you eat a full combo.

Characters footsie game is so much more worse off now.
Low damage, high risk commitment to punish run reads.

Character is very much worse than he was before. Once people learn to punish command grab properly for a full combo, he's just going to keep moving down.

The f12 and f42 nerf already hurts. That along with the meta change to zoning, him being a melee character kills him.

Would very much rather give up the f42 tick throw for the old hit advantage on f42 so he can connect ex hammer again off of it. Give him a better hit confirm off f42, right now f42 ex ice ball gives about 33% which is solid. But after a d4 on hit, if they up back disrespecting the d4 frames, you float them out of the jump. Prepatch this was fine cos you confirmed f42 1+3 prevoiusly (or f42 ex hammer in vanilla) for the combo. You could discourage movement and force them to block or amour, which from there you could condition to play some mix up game. Now with the damage nerf, and the changed f42; this is a crap tonne harder to do. Need to confirm from three options all within 10-15 frames. Not to mention, if you have no bar you literally get nothing off the f42 float. Before you would at least get f42 stabs, which was like 24%.

I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, buts he very much worse off. In a footsie/zoning meta. He's an unsafe mix up character. His best safe option is just b33 burst. Before you could play solid and win off good footsies and mix up after conditioning. Now he actually just has to play mix. He became what everyone was complaining about, he became a character who lives and dies by his mix up now.

The tick throws are a day 1 strategy, its not a consistent strategy to win. Once people learn the fuzzy, something which @Wazminator has already learnt. The risk reward on tick throws is basically always skewed out of your favour. The nerfs he received to balance out the cmd grab hurt him much more overall. Damage nerf was fine, but the f42 change to allow it to tick actually hurts him a tonne. The f42 tick needs to be removed so that his footsie game is workable again. Right now he feels like a csz or bo rai cho type character. Albeit with much more unsafe mix ups.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Once people learn the fuzzy...
People will never learn the fuzzy. You will get bodied by it just like everyone else.
People "learned the fuzzy" with erron black too and they still get bodied by sonic 3 years later. Everyone got hit by the throw, lol fuzzy my @$$.

You will NOT learn the fuzzy. You will NOT win. You will LOSE. You might randomly luck out and get out of ONE throw, and eat the rest 74748 of them and LOSE.

Fact.
 
Finally getting proper games in with cryo
Still dropping a lot of combos so eating a lot of unnecessary damage cos of it

But the big change i still cant get used to is the reduced cancel advantage on f42
So hard to build my new confirms
d4 on hit run up f4
- confirm jump back with cmd grab for full combo
- confirm buttons with f42 ex ice ball
- confirm block with burst/cmd grab

Also if they back dash you cant even do f42 ex ice ball to chase cos the reduced cancel advantage lets them block ex ice ball in time. You just have to guess the 2 is going to hit and cancel into slide. Which if it didnt properly chase, you eat a full combo.

Characters footsie game is so much more worse off now.
Low damage, high risk commitment to punish run reads.

Character is very much worse than he was before. Once people learn to punish command grab properly for a full combo, he's just going to keep moving down.

The f12 and f42 nerf already hurts. That along with the meta change to zoning, him being a melee character kills him.

Would very much rather give up the f42 tick throw for the old hit advantage on f42 so he can connect ex hammer again off of it. Give him a better hit confirm off f42, right now f42 ex ice ball gives about 33% which is solid. But after a d4 on hit, if they up back disrespecting the d4 frames, you float them out of the jump. Prepatch this was fine cos you confirmed f42 1+3 prevoiusly (or f42 ex hammer in vanilla) for the combo. You could discourage movement and force them to block or amour, which from there you could condition to play some mix up game. Now with the damage nerf, and the changed f42; this is a crap tonne harder to do. Need to confirm from three options all within 10-15 frames. Not to mention, if you have no bar you literally get nothing off the f42 float. Before you would at least get f42 stabs, which was like 24%.

I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, buts he very much worse off. In a footsie/zoning meta. He's an unsafe mix up character. His best safe option is just b33 burst. Before you could play solid and win off good footsies and mix up after conditioning. Now he actually just has to play mix. He became what everyone was complaining about, he became a character who lives and dies by his mix up now.

The tick throws are a day 1 strategy, its not a consistent strategy to win. Once people learn the fuzzy, something which @Wazminator has already learnt. The risk reward on tick throws is basically always skewed out of your favour. The nerfs he received to balance out the cmd grab hurt him much more overall. Damage nerf was fine, but the f42 change to allow it to tick actually hurts him a tonne. The f42 tick needs to be removed so that his footsie game is workable again. Right now he feels like a csz or bo rai cho type character. Albeit with much more unsafe mix ups.
This is what I said days ago, losing his cancellable cold blooded into ex hammer for that useless, extra meter burning and lower damaging anal puncture and anal assault is catching up to him, go back to prepatch, give him faster d1 and d2 would have been just fine
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
This is what I said days ago, losing his cancellable cold blooded into ex hammer for that useless, extra meter burning and lower damaging anal puncture and anal assault is catching up to him, go back to prepatch, give him faster d1 and d2 would have been just fine
yep been saying this since day 1 of the patch as well.
Cmd grab is eh. Decent to add to mix up, but far from what he needed.

F42 nerf fucks with his neutral so hard.
All he needed was the faster f1 and faster d1, and he was legit fine.
F1 is too risky to use now, whereas before it was the bread and butter of my offence.
Still punishable on a read, but i had the option of playing safe by reducing my reward.

Now literally his safest offence is the f4 os, which requires a bar now to do 10% less damage.

Prepatch cryo would have fit the current meta so much better, even without ex burst. High damage burst based footsies, with potential mix up following. If he wanted brain dead 5050, he had to take a risk on the mix up which was fair. But frame trap throw was legitimate. The nerf to his f12 makes his frame trap throw game much weaker. He still does have f33 and b12, but f122 was the vastly superior option cos it was 0/+1 on block. The character still literally has 0 plus frames except for in the corner, and he has no ex burst to enforce some sort of respect. Which would have been fair if his old f122 was in place, but now literally he is just a mix up character. Need to just commit to b33, b2 or cmd grab. Anytime you commit to f33, b12, f42 to frame trap, you're giving up your turn as much as the you would if you committed to the other mix up options.

His saving grace right now literally is just back dash and his unsafe mix up game. He has no way of keeping pressure, outside of unsafe conditioning with cmd grab to force them to fuzzy, Which allows some sort of stagger. But thats like conditioning with ex slide. He has no safe conditioning tool, outside of maybe burst. The armour nerf helps his burst game on block a tonne, but even then its kinda meh. You're still forced to stagger at -6 or -7. And the amount of recovery on his strings prevents anything decent.
Right now his only decent stagger is s1, which says a tonne.

Not to mention, his 1,1,1 string. Which is high mid mid whiffs against some crouch blocking characters, so whenever you commit to his jab string, if the player knows whats going on, will full combo punish you. We do have 1,2,3 that string pales in comparison to 1,1,1 in terms of damage output and safety.

Character as whole just plays super unsafe. And even his 'safe' play gives him 10-15% whiff punishes off his death on whiff f4. The death on whiff was fine before cos he at least got super solid damage on his run punishes, but now that is far from the case.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
I'm doing it exactly like how he did it. That's what's confusing me. Maybe I'm fucking up somewhere. But I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right.

Parry, JIP, B12~Aura, B12~EN Burst, run, B12, 123~Slide = 39%

Edit: Just triple checked. I'm doing it just like he said. I dunno. Maybe he got the % wrong?

Btw does anyone know how to get higher damage meterless off the parry?

Parry, JIP, B12, Aura, 242, Run, 123, Slide = 29%

Does anyone know how to squeeze a couple more % out of this? I've tried 1~123 and 1~B12 after the 242 and 29% is still the max that I can get.
You can even do these kombos:

Parry, JIP, B12xxAura, 242~242, B12xxBurst. (Don't know if it works in meta patch. Will lab it tonight to check this out).
Parry, JIP, B12xxAura, 242~1, B12xxBurst. (this works fine. Just practice the RUN and to catch your opponent with 1 before B12. Even Madzin and Buffalo have done it).
Parry, JIP, B12xxAura, 242~242, F12. (if you get close to the corner)
 
You can even do these kombos:

Parry, JIP, B12xxAura, 242~242, B12xxBurst. (Don't know if it works in meta patch. Will lab it tonight to check this out).
Parry, JIP, B12xxAura, 242~1, B12xxBurst. (this works fine. Just practice the RUN and to catch your opponent with 1 before B12. Even Madzin and Buffalo have done it).
Parry, JIP, B12xxAura, 242~242, F12. (if you get close to the corner)
Thanks for kombos. I'll lab them later today after work.
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
Finally getting proper games in with cryo
Still dropping a lot of combos so eating a lot of unnecessary damage cos of it

But the big change i still cant get used to is the reduced cancel advantage on f42
So hard to build my new confirms
d4 on hit run up f4
- confirm jump back with cmd grab for full combo
- confirm buttons with f42 ex ice ball
- confirm block with burst/cmd grab

Also if they back dash you cant even do f42 ex ice ball to chase cos the reduced cancel advantage lets them block ex ice ball in time. You just have to guess the 2 is going to hit and cancel into slide. Which if it didnt properly chase, you eat a full combo.

Characters footsie game is so much more worse off now.
Low damage, high risk commitment to punish run reads.

Character is very much worse than he was before. Once people learn to punish command grab properly for a full combo, he's just going to keep moving down.

The f12 and f42 nerf already hurts. That along with the meta change to zoning, him being a melee character kills him.

Would very much rather give up the f42 tick throw for the old hit advantage on f42 so he can connect ex hammer again off of it. Give him a better hit confirm off f42, right now f42 ex ice ball gives about 33% which is solid. But after a d4 on hit, if they up back disrespecting the d4 frames, you float them out of the jump. Prepatch this was fine cos you confirmed f42 1+3 prevoiusly (or f42 ex hammer in vanilla) for the combo. You could discourage movement and force them to block or amour, which from there you could condition to play some mix up game. Now with the damage nerf, and the changed f42; this is a crap tonne harder to do. Need to confirm from three options all within 10-15 frames. Not to mention, if you have no bar you literally get nothing off the f42 float. Before you would at least get f42 stabs, which was like 24%.

I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, buts he very much worse off. In a footsie/zoning meta. He's an unsafe mix up character. His best safe option is just b33 burst. Before you could play solid and win off good footsies and mix up after conditioning. Now he actually just has to play mix. He became what everyone was complaining about, he became a character who lives and dies by his mix up now.

The tick throws are a day 1 strategy, its not a consistent strategy to win. Once people learn the fuzzy, something which @Wazminator has already learnt. The risk reward on tick throws is basically always skewed out of your favour. The nerfs he received to balance out the cmd grab hurt him much more overall. Damage nerf was fine, but the f42 change to allow it to tick actually hurts him a tonne. The f42 tick needs to be removed so that his footsie game is workable again. Right now he feels like a csz or bo rai cho type character. Albeit with much more unsafe mix ups.
Yeah, this is what it seemed to me when they released the patch info. He's a grappler now, not a footsie character. His throw is pretty insane, but you'll have to play him a whole new way. I think he'll still be viable, but not as good as say Unbreakable.

Sorry that they changed someone you had really grinded. It must suck.
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
It also seems like NRS didn't know/have anyone that understood how Cryo plays and so didn't get what he needed. Instead, it's like they said, "He's not seeing much use. Hmm, let's make him a grappler!"

They heard us on F1 being faster, but then took away the option to use it as a legit footsie tool. Same with CSZ and Kotal. Bizarre, as the game seems to be trying to be more footsie based, which I love. They're getting closer, just not quite there yet.
 
yep been saying this since day 1 of the patch as well.
Cmd grab is eh. Decent to add to mix up, but far from what he needed.

F42 nerf fucks with his neutral so hard.
All he needed was the faster f1 and faster d1, and he was legit fine.
F1 is too risky to use now, whereas before it was the bread and butter of my offence.
Still punishable on a read, but i had the option of playing safe by reducing my reward.

Now literally his safest offence is the f4 os, which requires a bar now to do 10% less damage.

Prepatch cryo would have fit the current meta so much better, even without ex burst. High damage burst based footsies, with potential mix up following. If he wanted brain dead 5050, he had to take a risk on the mix up which was fair. But frame trap throw was legitimate. The nerf to his f12 makes his frame trap throw game much weaker. He still does have f33 and b12, but f122 was the vastly superior option cos it was 0/+1 on block. The character still literally has 0 plus frames except for in the corner, and he has no ex burst to enforce some sort of respect. Which would have been fair if his old f122 was in place, but now literally he is just a mix up character. Need to just commit to b33, b2 or cmd grab. Anytime you commit to f33, b12, f42 to frame trap, you're giving up your turn as much as the you would if you committed to the other mix up options.

His saving grace right now literally is just back dash and his unsafe mix up game. He has no way of keeping pressure, outside of unsafe conditioning with cmd grab to force them to fuzzy, Which allows some sort of stagger. But thats like conditioning with ex slide. He has no safe conditioning tool, outside of maybe burst. The armour nerf helps his burst game on block a tonne, but even then its kinda meh. You're still forced to stagger at -6 or -7. And the amount of recovery on his strings prevents anything decent.
Right now his only decent stagger is s1, which says a tonne.

Not to mention, his 1,1,1 string. Which is high mid mid whiffs against some crouch blocking characters, so whenever you commit to his jab string, if the player knows whats going on, will full combo punish you. We do have 1,2,3 that string pales in comparison to 1,1,1 in terms of damage output and safety.

Character as whole just plays super unsafe. And even his 'safe' play gives him 10-15% whiff punishes off his death on whiff f4. The death on whiff was fine before cos he at least got super solid damage on his run punishes, but now that is far from the case.
Thank you for a very thoughtful and precise write up, do you think there will be another mkx patch and if so do you think they will bring back
F42+L1 and make it once again cancellable into special moves, I would have been happy keeping him like he was, just make d1, d2, and ice balls faster, or just left him alone altogether . Also bring back all characters armored launchers
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
Thank you for a very thoughtful and precise write up, do you think there will be another mkx patch and if so do you think they will bring back
F42+L1 and make it once again cancellable into special moves, I would have been happy keeping him like he was, just make d1, d2, and ice balls faster, or just left him alone altogether .
No i doubt they will.
Likely wont be touched again
 

ryublaze

Noob
Premium Supporter
Grandmaster b2 run f42 EX ice ball and b2 run f42 clone don't work anymore, not sure why.

A few more female hurtbox combos:
123 EX Shatter 1 f1 Clone dash njp j2 f12
f42 EX Shatter 1 f1 Clone dash njp j2 f12

(These only add about 2% but I find them pretty consistent)
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
Grandmaster b2 run f42 EX ice ball and b2 run f42 clone don't work anymore, not sure why.

A few more female hurtbox combos:
123 EX Shatter 1 f1 Clone dash njp j2 f12
f42 EX Shatter 1 f1 Clone dash njp j2 f12

(These only add about 2% but I find them pretty consistent)
They reduced the cancel advantage on f42 to allow f42 to tick into cmd grab

This screwed a lot of his airborne confirms
The old vanilla combo, f42 ex hammer doesnt link at all anymore. And chase down f4 (2) ex ice ball can be blocked based on range now.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
I played some games with ShArp and noticed some WTF things.

1) Is it my idea or the JI2 doesn't connect on the frozen opponents? It used to connect pre-patch. Now it's no longer able.
2) When ShArp's Tremor did the continuous uppercups, I did the Breaker and sent him on the corner.

What's going on? Is it my idea or the game got a bit more broken to that point?