Swamp Thing Tech / Development

[Raynex]

A big thread for everyone to toss their ideas in. He may suck, but he's fun to play and we love him. We shouldn't stop sharing ideas on how to improve our gameplay. I came up with a few things last night that I wanted to share!

Assortment of Swamp Thing ideas, and AA optimization:

50/50 concept
https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/879803957954138113

Post-Command grab options
https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/879808819358044166

Don't jump at Swampy
https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/879810478649860096


Any combo involving bf3 can be confirmed prior to the MB, so any ranged poke or string xx bf3 is safe (-3). The 2 follow-up to Green Thumb has the most advantage frame-wise, so I tried to play around and find solid meaties to challenge buttons. The j.1 left/rights are saved for once they respect D3, MB F3, etc and hesitate. But obviously, non of this is without weakness.

For the Anti-air stuff, I found 1 bar 40% conversions that omit D2 (and thus it's scaling) for much better damage. D2 is still preferred for close range jump-ins, but at mid-range I just tap 1 and do this now.

 

[Rooks]

A big thread for everyone to toss their ideas in. He may suck, but he's fun to play and we love him. We shouldn't stop sharing ideas on how to improve our gameplay. I came up with a few things last night that I wanted to share!

Assortment of Swamp Thing ideas, and AA optimization:

50/50 concept
https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/879803957954138113

Post-Command grab options
https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/879808819358044166

Don't jump at Swampy
https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/879810478649860096


Any combo involving bf3 can be confirmed prior to the MB, so any ranged poke or string xx bf3 is safe (-3). The 2 follow-up to Green Thumb has the most advantage frame-wise, so I tried to play around and find solid meaties to challenge buttons. The j.1 left/rights are saved for once they respect D3, MB F3, etc and hesitate. But obviously, non of this is without weakness.

For the Anti-air stuff, I found 1 bar 40% conversions that omit D2 (and thus it's scaling) for much better damage. D2 is still preferred for close range jump-ins, but at mid-range I just tap 1 and do this now.

The anti air off of 1 is nice, though people have been doing it for a while I'm not sure if this variation has been posted.

The 50/50 concept looks way to slow. Have you tested it against many d2's or common anti airs, cause it looks way too reactable.

The post grab stuff is meh, nothing new there. Still obvious answers of backdash,WU or simply block. If you find something that beats multiple options we may have something. Sweep alone is usually better than cancelling sweep after first hit since it beats armor and many WU's. If you cancel after first hit MB f3/B3 beats the combo.

 

[Raynex]

Most people have been doing 11 xx up vine grab, which does less damage. Never seen anyone use the 1, then link afterwards. Pretty sure it's new.

Yep his jump is pathetic and slow, but I don't think it invalidates everything. MB F3 / B3 beats the majority of options a person can do, but more importantly...oki isn't about one option that beats everything. It's about expanding your option pool so that you can effectively run a guessing game until they're unsure of what to do. Each option loses to something, but is also good in other situations.

None of this is perfect by any means but the cross-up is quite ambiguous if you have the time to set it up.

 

[Rooks]

Most people have been doing 11 xx up vine grab, which does less damage. Never seen anyone use the 1, then link afterwards. Pretty sure it's new.

Yep his jump is pathetic and slow, but I don't think it invalidates everything. MB F3 / B3 beats the majority of options a person can do, but more importantly...oki isn't about one option that beats everything. It's about expanding your option pool so that you can effectively run a guessing game until they're unsure of what to do. Each option loses to something, but is also good in other situations.

None of this is perfect by any means but the cross-up is quite ambiguous if you have the time to set it up.

Yeah didn't think I saw that particular version before...

Jump being that slow makes it pure gimmick imo. Once a person sees it once what is to stop them from d2ing f they have a decent d2?

Yeah i understand oki, it's just that your options were really obvious. I don't expect a one answer fits all, just something other than choices of jump in(crossup or not)/ low(Sweep) /MB Bounce that are common to every character pretty much.

Not trying to be a dick. Just offering honest criticism.

 

[Brown Cow 54]

Really like the anti air combos. I need to start doing 1 to anti air more anyway.

 

[Raynex]

Yeah didn't think I saw that particular version before...

Jump being that slow makes it pure gimmick imo. Once a person sees it once what is to stop them from d2ing f they have a decent d2?

Yeah i understand oki, it's just that your options were really obvious. I don't expect a one answer fits all, just something other than choices of jump in(crossup or not)/ low(Sweep) /MB Bounce that are common to every character pretty much.

Not trying to be a dick. Just offering honest criticism.

Criticism is part of discussion and development, no big deal.

I think we have to just accept what the character has. His jump is floaty and obvious, his mix-ups are tame, but it's what we have to work with.

His D3 on wake-up is actually really good imo, because it hits at a distance rivaled only by Aquaman and GL's B1 and he can combo off it too. It also breaks armor, so I find that hitting a few of these keeps them honest and opens up his other slower options.

Regarding D2ing the j.1s, if you forgo the cross-up option, Green Thumb~2 gives you enough frame advantage to buffer a forward jump and connect with with their body before they can attack. In other words, the j.1 looks to be meaty. If you're unsure you can do a late j.3 which is 100% meaty and will destroy any kind of mashing. I'll try to make another video showing how meaty j.1 sets up mixups and beats mashing.

 

[freerf245]

I usually do 1 db3 b232 df2 because the link into f23 seems inconsistent to me.

 

[Raynex]

The 50/50 concept looks way to slow. Have you tested it against many d2's or common anti airs, cause it looks way too reactable.

Jump being that slow makes it pure gimmick imo. Once a person sees it once what is to stop them from d2ing f they have a decent d2?

The post grab stuff is meh, nothing new there. Still obvious answers of backdash,WU or simply block. If you find something that beats multiple options we may have something.

- Here is video of the non-cross-up version beating a 7f D2. It is likely the best D2 in the game range / speed-wise.

https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/879837669605486593

- I tested it vs Batman's wake-up slide, GL's wake-up lift, Superman's rising grab and a few other wake-ups. They all whiffed, and none of their D2's stopped the jump-in (if AM's lost, of course theirs would).

- MB B3/F3 has such a tiny window for start-up because you get hit almost immediately after standing. It hasn't been able to beat this so far.

- It isn't a gimmick. D2s and other non-invincible buttons aren't beating this.

It isn't about it being slow or reactable. If you teach them to respect your offense using frame advantage, they have no choice but to take your jump-in > mix-up. Then you can do left/rights, D3 confirms, or anything else you want to enforce.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

Note that your vid shows a cross-up. Is your non-cross up to use jumping 2/3?

 

[Rooks]

- Here is video of the non-cross-up version beating a 7f D2. It is likely the best D2 in the game range / speed-wise.

https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/879837669605486593

- I tested it vs Batman's wake-up slide, GL's wake-up lift, Superman's rising grab and a few other wake-ups. They all whiffed, and none of their D2's stopped the jump-in (if AM's lost, of course theirs would).

- MB B3/F3 has such a tiny window for start-up because you get hit almost immediately after standing. It hasn't been able to beat this so far.

- It isn't a gimmick. D2s and other non-invincible buttons aren't beating this.

It isn't about it being slow or reactable. If you teach them to respect your offense using frame advantage, they have no choice but to take your jump-in > mix-up. Then you can do left/rights, D3 confirms, or anything else you want to enforce.

HELL YEAH.

Now that vid is convincing!!! (rather than the opponent doing nothing) Great find!!!

I wasn't meaning to sound like d3 was meh, just that it was painfully obvious (at least to me) and seemed pointless to showcase in a vid. Same thing for b3. But maybe I'm missing something.

Edit: Removed part of previous response that was still there for some reason.

 

[Rooks]

Note that your vid shows a cross-up. Is your non-cross up to use jumping 2/3?

Yeah, how are you deciding between crossup and non?

 

[Raynex]

Walk forward a tiny bit for crossup. But if you do this the setup isnt as tight. Use buffer forward jump (non crossup) to teach respect and setup tick throws and high/lows, use the crossup if you think they will just sit there

 

[Rooks]

EDIT: All done on non crossup version

Rising grab beats j1, at least when I do it. F3/b3 can also be done but I'm not getting it 100%, I just hold MB and back then mash 3.

There isn't a difference in regards to how close you are when you grab them, right? Not sure how there could be but rather than assume...

Is it quicker to tap jump frame perfect then just hold up and forward before grab animation ends?

 

[Raynex]

EDIT: All done on non crossup version

Rising grab beats j1, at least when I do it. F3/b3 can also be done but I'm not getting it 100%, I just hold MB and back then mash 3.

There isn't a difference in regards to how close you are when you grab them, right? Not sure how there could be but rather than assume...

Is it quicker to tap jump frame perfect then just hold up and forward before grab animation ends?

Hmm, I'll have to try rising grab again. I'll record it as well, I was getting it to whiff. Distance on Green Thumb doesn't matter afaik, it's always look to be the same.

For the j.1 that beats mashing, yep I've been buffering up+forward during the Green Thumb~2 animation.
It loses to delay wake-up blah blah, but honestly I've gotten it to hit the majority of times I've gone for it. More experimenting needs to be done I think.

 

[Wetdoba]

Some stuff I was looking into. Meaty log set ups on tech roll and delayed wake ups

 

[Wetdoba]

B223 is plus 6 on block but with a gap on the last hit. B22 is only -2 on block so you can stagger and bait the backdash out of 223 and true punish even catbitchs backdash

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

That does it. Broken tech or not, swamp thing for evo 2017 or bust! I'll see you all there at top 8... in the spectators circle.

The meaty log is good, but do we have something that makes them not tech? Is trait after 11 into In fast enough?

 

[Raynex]

The Swamp Thing revival has begun! Good job everyone

 

[masuhdunkillyall]

Awesome thread, good to see people still putting in work.

That being said, I've seen discussion on setups for trait but nothing we've found that is dirty midscreen. What I've tried quite a bit (but ended up dropping in favor of just damage) is:

(Starter) into mb shoulder, f23xclone, d2xtrait or 11 trait.

I walk forward so if they tech I'm still in range to hit with f21 which puts them back into the garden. If they continue to block f21, on the next go around I'll do f23xclone, followed by d2xgreen thumb 2 and put them into the garden.

None of this is great, but it's all I could really find midscreen which is why I dropped it in favor of damage.

 

[Meep8345]

Guys I found something pretty good with him I'll upload once I have time to

 

[1man3letters]

B223 is plus 6 on block but with a gap on the last hit. B22 is only -2 on block so you can stagger and bait the backdash out of 223 and true punish even catbitchs backdash

no real reason to backdash that string though as the gap big enough to interrupt with a normal or mb b3 if feeling lazy

 

[Wetdoba]

no real reason to backdash that string though as the gap big enough to interrupt with a normal or mb b3 if feeling lazy

Hmm, Ill have to look into it. Theoretically this should work on any scenario they would want to backdash though so could work after B1, B232, or F23 at certain ranges

 

[1man3letters]

Hmm, Ill have to look into it. Theoretically this should work on any scenario they would want to backdash though so could work after B1, B232, or F23 at certain ranges

yea yea i wasnt saying dont use f2 to bait backdashes, i use it more than vine grab (as hitbox/ active frames dodgy af against bacckdashes) just for the b223 one there much more reason to try interrupt with normal then try backdash

 

[Raynex]

I recorded a buttload more tech tonight. Some of it is known and some is original. Hope it helps!

- When punishing moves, 11 or D1 is better when you have a bar because you can cancel to MB bf3. But meterless, I think D2 is our go-to punish based on my testing. It's 10f start-up and has great reach vs grounded opponents.

https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/880302759123267586

- Anti-Superman

https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/880311299946795008

- Anti-Aquaman
*At the end is a strong mix-up I wanted to share. Clone leaves you at +15, and B1 is 16f start-up. This means there is only a 1f gap and it is virtually an uninterruptible low mix-up, that is also safe and hit-confirmable. If the stomps don't connect, don't MB the bf3 and you're safe at -3. I'm finding that punishing into the +15 clone is probably Swampy's best case scenario as far as mix-up goes.

https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/880315069762084864

- A few tricks to deal with Deadshot Zoning

https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/880321426695303168

 

[xXFiercePlayXx]

Really like the anti air combos. I need to start doing 1 to anti air more anyway.

What I was doing to anti air with swamp thing is standing 1 DB3 11 close vine grab. Does solid 27 to 30hits depending on the character