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Swamp Thing: Helping Him Out Post IPS Finals

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
Alright! So as we all know this character needs some serious help. As you also should know we won't get that till after the IPS finals that are coming up which is completely understandable. But honestly, what does this character need in order to make him more viable. He's so unbelievably close but he just has really, one problem. He's the literal slowest character in the game. So here's my list of things I feel would improve this character just enough to make him a solid mid tier (maybe even upper mid tier) character. Here we go!

Make B2 9 frames
This I feel is the change he probably needs the most. As anyone who plays the character or anyone who's done their lab work will tell you, Swamp Thing's fastest standing mid is 13 frames. This is straight up, not good enough to compete in any capacity. Most neutral heavy characters have 10, 9 and even 8 frame mids to contest pokes when characters are barely minus outside of poking the opponent. It would also give him a way better frame trap game due to the fact that sometimes D1 will whiff after his plus frames as well as his D2 so it's very VERY hard to enforce your plus frames against a lot of the cast. B2 only being 13 frames makes it so that he also has a hard time punishing some things (Grodd's Stampede is 100% safe due to this unless you can get that just frame punish) Overall this change alone would shoot this character up the tier lists.


Make D1 6 frames/Can't poke out of D1 xx Green Thumb
An issue you will find consistently is that Swamp Thing's counter poke/stagger game suffers heavily from the fact that he as a 7 frame D1. With a 6 frame D1 he could use his frame data to a much more efficient extent (using his 0 on block B23, using his barely negative stuff to start enforcing the opponent needing to poke after they block it instead of using a standing string) Another change I'd put on his D1 is making it so that D1 xx Green Thumb can't be straight up poked out of. No other grappler has their poke into command grab poked out of, it seems a bit silly to me that Swamp Thing is the exception to every rule involving grapplers in this game.


Improve His Backdash
Mobility is a huge issue with Swamp Thing and while this seems intentional, it seems as though the intention is way too effective, creating a jump arch that makes Glacius sad and a backdash that looks decent until you realize the amount of recovery in comparison to the distance traveled is laughable at best. I'm fine with his jump arch being floaty, it's honestly become a staple to the character (though i wouldn't mind this being changed NRS) but what he really needs is a better backdash. Defensively, this character is ass. MB B3 is 35 frames so it always gets broken, his jump backs are OKAY but again, floaty jump arch. A backdash with either more distance or less recovery plus a 6 frame D1 should be more than enough to improve this while still having him have flaws in his defense.


LUXURY BUFFS
These are buffs that countless people have said are 100% necessary but in my opinion, they are more luxury buffs than anything. They would definitely make the character more viable, but what i listed above should be enough to make him a solid character. Here we go


S2 Is a Faster Mid
Now this is one that would make him a pretty scary force to be reckoned with. Currently at 30 frames, Swamp Thing's S2 is the slowest non B3/F3 button in the whole game and hits overhead. However the idea i and many other Swamp Thing players have thrown around is "wouldn't it be nice if this thing was like, an 18 frame mid? instead of a 30 frame overhead?" this would give us a way more usable tick throw option and a DEADLY mind game of either getting plus frames or our opponent eating a tick throw. This would SURELY improve his effectiveness by a large amount.


Less Floaty Jump Arch
This is probably the one i've heard the most from people. And yes, i would absolutely love to not be on the moon and have a normal fucking jump arch. This would allow him to play the game in an overall more effective manner entirely.


Speed Up Back 3/Forward 3
Another change toted as 100% needed, Swamp Thing has a 35 frame B3/F3, making it the slowest button in the entire game (B3s and F3s included) therefor it's the easiest bit of armor to break in the entire game. This creates a shit defensive option that will hinder you more than help you 80% of the time. Speading it up to be on par with some of the other slow B3s in the game would help the character immensely.


So! That's the buff thread! I know we've had countless variations of these but for once I think we can all agree on these changes. Let me know what you think of them in the comments, discussion, as always, is encouraged!
 

RNLDRGN

RONALD ROGAN
I think if he got most of the above buffs ^ it would be overkill, but nevertheless here's my realistic wishlist from a Day 1 Swamp main:

Trait Heal: Make standing in Abigail's Garden heal him very slowly a la Firestorm or Fate. His trait is already hard to get out and this furthers his tanky design while giving zoners a reason to come to him if he is gaining the life lead.

B3 is 30 Frames (from 35): I originally wanted both his F3 and B3 to be faster, but I find that using MB F3 for jump reads really cuts down on the amount of times you get hit out of it. MB B3 on the other hand will get stuffed 50-75% of the time, even on the best footsie or wakeup read. This could also allow for F3 into B3 for unclashable damage.

Clone Armor: Regular clone (db3) should gain armor during trait (much like vines) and MB clone should always have armor to trade favorably. Right now Swamp Thing gets little to no reward for guessing right vs zoning b/c so many of the game's projectiles will still hit him out of clone or MB clone and recover fast enough for no gain, even on a good read. Let him fight fullscreen but make him use resources to do so.

I like these bc it changes nothing about his gameplan, but enhances his current kit. He still relies on reads, he's still slow, still has floaty jump, etc. Keep him weird, but let him use his resources more effectively instead of getting blown up by braindead zoning or air mobility & air attacks.

I think a 6 frame D1 or less floaty jump are too drastic and won't happen. All tick throws can be jumped and if you're worried about getting jabbed just space and use D2. A faster B2 would be great but I don't see it as being likely, his footsies are already good. NRS have made it apparent they want to focus on his tanky, screen control design--not make him Plant Superman.
 
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DubiousShenron

Beware my power.
So giving him an 8 frame mid into tick throws and 6 frame d1 into command grab mix feel tough for me to approve of, but these should absolutely help him in bad MUs.

I think the walk speed buff is the biggest thing he needs. He doesn't need faster buttons, he just needs a faster walk speed to walk in and out of the range of his buttons so he can effectively avoid attacks and easily enter the range of his moves. The faster jump arc is ridiculousness I can't even acknowledge this suggestionwith his insanely good jumpins--he would be unstoppable in the air.

Now if they could just correct the nerf to his command grab scaling, that would be good for now imo.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
So giving him an 8 frame mid into tick throws and 6 frame d1 into command grab mix feel tough for me to approve of, but these should absolutely help him in bad MUs.

I think the walk speed buff is the biggest thing he needs. He doesn't need faster buttons, he just needs a faster walk speed to walk in and out of the range of his buttons so he can effectively avoid attacks and easily enter the range of his moves. The faster jump arc is ridiculousness I can't even acknowledge this suggestionwith his insanely good jumpins--he would be unstoppable in the air.

Now if they could just correct the nerf to his command grab scaling, that would be good for now imo.
As someone who granted hasn't played the character as long as others, but has been playing him non stop for the past couple weeks, i can tell you he DEFINITELY needs faster buttons and his walk speed isn't even a huge problem for him.

EDIT: also 18 frame tick throw not 8
 

RNLDRGN

RONALD ROGAN
So giving him an 8 frame mid into tick throws and 6 frame d1 into command grab mix feel tough for me to approve of, but these should absolutely help him in bad MUs.

I think the walk speed buff is the biggest thing he needs. He doesn't need faster buttons, he just needs a faster walk speed to walk in and out of the range of his buttons so he can effectively avoid attacks and easily enter the range of his moves. The faster jump arc is ridiculousness I can't even acknowledge this suggestionwith his insanely good jumpins--he would be unstoppable in the air.

Now if they could just correct the nerf to his command grab scaling, that would be good for now imo.
You missing that .8% damage? lol

I agree on the jump arc, but altering his walkspeed seems like something NRS wouldn't do. Have they ever made a noticeable change to walkspeed for a slow character in a patch? I never have problems with his footsies, I have problems getting hit out of excellent reads--even when I'm making the smart choice.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
You missing that .8% damage? lol

I agree on the jump arc, but altering his walkspeed seems like something NRS wouldn't do. Have they ever made a noticeable change to walkspeed for a slow character in a patch? I never have problems with his footsies, I have problems getting hit out of excellent reads--even when I'm making the smart choice.
Goro in MKX
 

RNLDRGN

RONALD ROGAN
I think this whole buff idea could go two routes:

"Buff His Buttons" or "Buff His Tools"

I know they can be viewed as one in the same, but if the last patch is any indication, they want to keep him slow and awkward, so I'm banking on trait buffs and more armor. But geez, I would so love a faster B2, B3/F3, st.2, B1, etc. Just seems like too much of an overhaul for NRS lol. I don't think they've shown any indication the balance team understands this character.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
I dont think his up close needs anything else, there are plenty of other characters with good close range mids, that is not Swamps design. I think he is designed to have slower buttons up close because he has half screen buttons you have to get through first. His issue is his unique screeb control tools not being as helpful as they should.

Most important changes would be healing over time in trait to force zoners to come to him and allow him to use his buttons to his advantage.

Mb clone also needs armor on the start up. It is already slower than nornal clone and is pretty useless against zoners because Swamp just gets hit out of it and wastes a bar.

F3 and B3 slightly faster so he can combo F3 into F3 or F3 into B3 so he can have unclashable damage at the mid range he is suppose to control.

I think thats really all he needs to compete and anything after that would be jumping the gun. But yeah, just make him better at Swampthing stuff and keep him true to his design. Walk spped and jump arc are suppose to be the way they are because of his absurd club normals, he cant just have those with a nornal walkspeed and jump arc.
 

Skedar70

Noob
You missing that .8% damage? lol

I agree on the jump arc, but altering his walkspeed seems like something NRS wouldn't do. Have they ever made a noticeable change to walkspeed for a slow character in a patch? I never have problems with his footsies, I have problems getting hit out of excellent reads--even when I'm making the smart choice.
Yes they did it to Goro in mkx.
 

Skedar70

Noob
This is my list.

I think they should make his b3 and f3 faster so it works like the rest of the cast.
D1 should have more hit advantage if its going to remain 7f.
They should increase his walk speed a little bit.
Log should be safe on block. Negative but safe.

Abigail's garden getting health back would be dope but maybe too op. Remember the opponent takes damage while standing in it and can't jump or dash, now imagine that to this you add a far reaching hulk pressuring you and gaining health while he does it. It could work or it could be busted not sure.

If they aren't going to add armor to clone and we still have to walk in on zoners, I suggest they increase his hp and defense more so that he can take more damage and chip while doing so. Not like that BS stuff that they did last patch for big boddies were they increase his defense but decrease his health so they basically left him the same, increase both stats.
 
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RNLDRGN

RONALD ROGAN
This is my list.

I think they should make his b3 and f3 faster so it works like the rest of the cast.
D1 should have more hit advantage if its going to remain 7f.
They should increase his walk speed a little bit.
Log should be safe on block. Negative but safe.

Abigail's garden getting health back would be dope but maybe too op. Remember the opponent takes damage while standing in it and can't jump or dash, now imagine that to this you add a far reaching hulk pressuring you and gaining health while he does it. It could work or it could be busted not sure.

If they aren't going to add armor to clone and we still have to walk in on zoners, I suggest they increase his hp and defense more so that he can take more damage and chip while doing so. Not like that BS stuff that they did last patch for big boddies were they increase his defense but decrease his health so they basically left him the same, increase both stats.
They didn't decrease his effective health. He essentially got a 5%-ish health buff based on the defense changes. It's nice, but it's not like he was missing Top 8 placements by not having 1 more hit of health lol.

Abigail's Garden giving him health would be very balanced IMO b/c he'd have to stand in it (limiting his mobility and ability to spread it) and I assume it would recover very slowly. Hell, unless you get a knockdown (vs Deadshot) or an excellent read (Fate) you can't even use trait vs a lot of zoners.

The fix to clone/mb clone is huge IMO. The amount of times I had a great read for MB Clone only to be hit and still be fullscreen, albeit with 1 less bar, is depressing.
 

Skedar70

Noob
They didn't decrease his effective health. He essentially got a 5%-ish health buff based on the defense changes. It's nice, but it's not like he was missing Top 8 placements by not having 1 more hit of health lol.

Abigail's Garden giving him health would be very balanced IMO b/c he'd have to stand in it (limiting his mobility and ability to spread it) and I assume it would recover very slowly. Hell, unless you get a knockdown (vs Deadshot) or an excellent read (Fate) you can't even use trait vs a lot of zoners.

The fix to clone/mb clone is huge IMO. The amount of times I had a great read for MB Clone only to be hit and still be fullscreen, albeit with 1 less bar, is depressing.
Yeah I Edited that during the time you were writing this response. They should increase both stats.
 

masuhdunkillyall

Aht Aht Aht!
As a day 1 swampy main, the biggest must have change for me is literally any change for DB3.

whether it's armor on MB (essential in certain matchups, imo) armor while using db3 in trait similar to vines, etc. db3 being improved is essential.

After that, I'd like:

- faster b3/f3 (also fairly essential)
- 113 being cancelable.

These alone would improve him immensely for me.

A faster s2, b223 connecting to anything worthwhile for more meterless damage are also all acceptable buffs purely because they give more of a use to underutilized parts of his game.

Changing his walk speed or jump or vastly improving his up close game would drastically alter how the character plays and I think there are ways to change him for the better while still keeping his feel.
 

DubiousShenron

Beware my power.
As a day 1 swampy main, the biggest must have change for me is literally any change for DB3.

whether it's armor on MB (essential in certain matchups, imo) armor while using db3 in trait similar to vines, etc. db3 being improved is essential.

After that, I'd like:

- faster b3/f3 (also fairly essential)
- 113 being cancelable.

These alone would improve him immensely for me.

A faster s2, b223 connecting to anything worthwhile for more meterless damage are also all acceptable buffs purely because they give more of a use to underutilized parts of his game.

Changing his walk speed or jump or vastly improving his up close game would drastically alter how the character plays and I think there are ways to change him for the better while still keeping his feel.
This feels like the most honest and educated response. NRS, somebody needs a job.
 
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Wetdoba

All too easy...
As a day 1 swampy main, the biggest must have change for me is literally any change for DB3.

whether it's armor on MB (essential in certain matchups, imo) armor while using db3 in trait similar to vines, etc. db3 being improved is essential.

After that, I'd like:

- faster b3/f3 (also fairly essential)
- 113 being cancelable.

These alone would improve him immensely for me.

A faster s2, b223 connecting to anything worthwhile for more meterless damage are also all acceptable buffs purely because they give more of a use to underutilized parts of his game.

Changing his walk speed or jump or vastly improving his up close game would drastically alter how the character plays and I think there are ways to change him for the better while still keeping his feel.
He can confirm b223 into meterless clone midscreen and then combo sweep after or cancel the first hit of sweep into vinegrab too

I agree with everything else. I forgot about 113, needs to be cancellable, no point to it as of now
 

RNLDRGN

RONALD ROGAN
He can confirm b223 into meterless clone midscreen and then combo sweep after or cancel the first hit of sweep into vinegrab too

I agree with everything else. I forgot about 113, needs to be cancellable, no point to it as of now
You can B223 into B22 too, but it's also stupid hard.
 

DubiousShenron

Beware my power.
Swamp things gameplan plan is 100% viable, so they shouldn't change the scope of the character. But it feels like his tools are gonna need another facelift so they can aid him better in the MUs he's losing right now (i.e zoners).

I want him to be the type of character that's gonna keep zoners honest like Atrocitus' with his blood puddle but unfortunately he doesn't have anything near that respectable rn. The armor buff on vine grab was good but clearly it's not enough..he's gonna need something to make zoners scared, like clone grab. Put armor on it so there's a guessing game at full screen everytime swamp blocks a projectile Of whether or not he will do armored clone to win trades with fireballs. This is a start.
 

masuhdunkillyall

Aht Aht Aht!
He can confirm b223 into meterless clone midscreen and then combo sweep after or cancel the first hit of sweep into vinegrab too

I agree with everything else. I forgot about 113, needs to be cancellable, no point to it as of now
I know, but I wish it would give something more as our meterless damage is lacking everywhere but the corner (and even there it's not great).

It would be nice if we could connect f23 reliably after b223xclone, or anything else after b223xclone other than sweep. For a string that can be poked out of before the last hit very easily, it doesn't offer much even though it's plus on block (if i remember correctly).

It just barely seems that 11 misses after doing b223xclone...it would be so nice to even just hit that combo and end with a vine grab, or just 1xgreen thumb or whatever works for the situation.
 
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thlityoursloat

kick kick
Sped up B2 would benefit him immensely, he'd be a serious force to be reckoned with in the neutral. Right now he has the range, but once you get past his f2 range and more into superman f2 range, he struggles a ton.