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Guide Surgeon General's Warning - The Smoke Offense Thread

G4S KT

Gaming4Satan Founder
Hi all, I'm starting this thread to really get a heavy discussion about Smoke's offense going and try to open up more possibilities. I feel his biggest weakness is how one dimensional his offense is, and it's very easy to get stuck in a rut, so to speak.

Personally, I find myself fishing with max range d4 to start pressure from neutral positioning a lot, probably more than I should. But, I can't really find any other good way besides spacing. It's pretty easy to jump over a d4 and I haven't been able to AA standing 2 after a whiffed d4 and then I'm in pressure.

The only other ways I can think to initiate offense is if the enemy has weak AA to jump kick/air throw > teleport into oki pressure, or go for a b2 as they're chasing me.

I also did some thinking and I realized that due to the nature of Smoke's normals, if you're block stringing someone it's very unlikely that they'll get opened up for a full combo, and very easy to reverse the pressure. This is especially true if you get too happy with Poke 'n Smoke (trademark ;)). To that end, I now believe it's better to quickly finish out your block string pressure with a throw.

Take for example this situation:

you get a smart cross up into block strings and you do:
3d12 > d1 > d1 > d1 xx smoke bomb

you've done 6% chip, built maybe just under 3/4 of a bar and now the pressure is reversed.

What if you do this instead:

3d1 > 3d1 > throw

now you've done 20% damage, built maybe half a bar of meter and given yourself advantage, especially if they don't tech roll after the throw. If they do tech roll, you can still get a free invis or drift after them if you so choose.

To me, the second scenario is a MUCH better choice. But, 3d12 and 112 are the only strings that can fake someone into eating a throw. All the rest of his strings are about 0 when staggered, but with 21 and b2 and b1 the opening is so obvious that you can't follow up with another block string and are forced to poke.

But, I think that's the path that needs to be gone down. Using these obvious openings, poking, and then continuing with non poke pressure. d1 xx smoke bomb as pressure has become the enemy for me. Which brings me to some (what I think is, anyway) new tech…

At point blank range, on hit, d3 gives enough advantage to cross up your opponent and clear all of their grounded normals. This was tested with Sektor and his 6 frame d1, 6 frame standing 1, and 7 frame big-arm uppercut all failed to knock Smoke out of the air on the way up. They can, however, jump themselves and go for an aerial AA (which you can beat in a frame war), or use fast advancing AA specials (like Kano ball, flip kick, hat spin, etc.) which will beat you or at least escape if they see it coming. But, besides that I think this is a pretty big deal.

This can open up possibilities like this for block strings:

d4(hit) > b2 > d3(hit) > CUP > 3d12 > d3(hit) > CUP etc.

There are also ways to incorporate invis into block string pressure which I can go into if people are curious; if you've been watching the VSM stream you've probably seen me do it already.

So… how do you approach offense with Smoke?
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
With all that knowledge going into why you should be throwing, it suddenly struck my that you didnt state the big one : "BLOCK LOW DAMN YOU"

My offense consists of lots of elements and a combination of each at any point.

Smokes offence is fairly dirty thinking from an opponents point of view. You don't want to block low all the time because you are going to get a monumental beat-down. You dont want to eat lots of pokes, leading to some mad situations with the advantage you have off d3 and his blocked string traps.Now of course throws and random overheads thrown in there for good measure too right..

Now, you want to get out of smokes pressure. You dont like this pressure, you duck and smoke wins, you dont and smoke is in your face causing you pain and harassment so getting out is what they need to do.

Getting AWAY from smoke. Another problem of course. If smoke wants to chase you, he will chase you, if he wants to zone (and counterzone at the same time ofc) thats what he will do.

You HAVE to play an offensive game, or be very very good at defending against that pressure to get a good start in this fight, and carry it through to the end to win.

Thats another well suited area for smoke if he is calling the shots. Great anti air 2 keeping you grounded, D1 and D4 keeping rushers at bay, and the spacing and footsies game smoke excels at too.

Really though, if you get on smoke, hes going to have to use meter or good judgement to get out, and thats a good thought, because smoke under pressure can fall apart.

The most part of his offence from my point of view now comes from momentum and control of that momentum, and the control of your opponents mind.

Zipping around the screen, trying to cause your opponent to cock up is one huge part of my gameplay, and builds up meter that is ever useful for getting out of bad situations and turning them good.

Your opponent needs to respect your ability to back out of your own pressure at any point too, and realise that its not as stale as it looks when smoke is in your face with poke poke poke 3d1 poke. Theres tons of options, each one a mind game and really nothing that puts smoke at a bad situation. The only way you end up in the shit is getting TOO offensive.

Learning from playing with really good players local to me theres a huge benefit with smoke (and anyone tbh) to just sitting on a life lead: After you take say 20/30% off (thats what 2 pressure strings ending in throws if your using stuff mentioned above by KT for example!) then what can the opponent do but be FORCED to try and attack you. Usually with a slight reckless intent as theres not much else they can do.

If you are full screen then your opponent wants to come to you and pick a fight, they have no choice after all, times ticking then let them. You see them ready to jump at you, your anti air is in waiting. They want to come in at you with a string then you can D4 them out. Not to mention your run away game is second to none and you have a parry which with a good read with. Theres a HUGE mind game, just by having more life than someone you are already in control of the game.

With some patience smoke can shut down all the cast with his mind games. I see lots of people talking about smokes rushdown, but really you only need to get caught out once for it to all turn sour on you. I really do recommend the "defensive offence" tactic. You may need to give up your pressure every once in a while when youre on the ball, but in the end playing reckless rushdown with smoke is only going to end up in a bad situation.

Obviously there will be different balances of how people rush and play with smoke as a whole so discuss this, add to it, argue with me. Anything, the smoke forum is for talking smoke, so talk smoke we shall!
 

SZSR

Noob
d4 isn't as much of a safe option as we'd like it to be, but machine gunning it in smoke bomb and going into crossup pressure helps you build meter and develops some chip, but really it's interrupting 3d1 > throw into invisibility that gives him an edge. Honestly, I prefer to start my offensive with invisibility because it makes the Smoke guessing game a bit harder for the opponent especially darker stages like Tsung's throne room, the flesh pits and the soul chamber. Also, I notice in most opponents, it makes them antsy and more aggressive when you are invisible (I guess they simply want you to be visible again), I think we should try to take advantage of that mind game and get them when they try to move in on you.

KT you and smokey basically listed the best options for an offensive, but I don't think an offensive Smoke is the best way we should play. Like Pig mentioned Redd's Smoke is the ideal Smoke and i've had a lot more success with a defensive Smoke who simply punishes all of your opponents move-ins. Like punishing jump-ins with b2, 3 smokebomb and AAing people with 2 and d1.

Smokey said it best, "Playing reckless rushdown with Smoke is only going to end up in a bad situation."

To simply parrot you, strings like 3d12 > d1 and 3d1 > 3d1 > anything else, 112 > smoke towards, and d3 > d3> throw (really predictable IMO but people fall for it a lot) are great in your face moves for an offense, and when we do have to go on the offensive, they are great ideas. But the best way to play it is being able to switch between the one-dimensional offense to his monstrous defense as quickly as possible.
 
d3 into cross over jump and 3d1 into itself are interesting options that I hadn't considered. I'll give those a try. What is 3d1 like on block? Neutral?

KT you and smokey basically listed the best options for an offensive, but I don't think an offensive Smoke is the best way we should play. Like Pig mentioned Redd's Smoke is the ideal Smoke and i've had a lot more success with a defensive Smoke who simply punishes all of your opponents move-ins. Like punishing jump-ins with b2, 3 smokebomb and AAing people with 2 and d1.

Smokey said it best, "Playing reckless rushdown with Smoke is only going to end up in a bad situation."
While I agree with you, you do need some sort of offensive gameplan for when you're down on life and you can't run out the clock.
 

G4S KT

Gaming4Satan Founder
What is 3d1 like on block? Neutral?
DISCLAIMER: these are all eyeballed, so they're not exactly accurate but are close. And, there's probably some misinformation in here to keep you on your toes, since I'm trying to remember them off hand from testing while at work; I never wrote anything down.

3d1 on block is -1, and the timing for looping it is a little strange. However, it's good because the rhythm of the full string and the cooldown window have similar duration. they will probably respect a whole string because it's 0 on block and grants a full combo if they guess wrong. That, and everyone who knows the Smoke match up has seen him do 3d12 ten million times.

d3 on hit is +4 or even 5 (I came to this conclusion because I know Kabal's d3 is +3 on hit and Smoke's appears to have a touch more advantage)

d1 on hit is +1

2 on hit and block is 0

1 on hit and block is 0 and has the least cooldown of all his normals

21 on block is bad, like -7 or 8, on hit is 0 (I think)

11 on hit and block is 0 but has the lowest cooldown of all his stagger strings

b1 on hit and block is 0 but the cooldown/blockstun time is huge.

b2 is 0 on block and +1 or 2 on hit. Also has a lot of cooldown but not as much as b1
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
If my maths is correct, and i am an accountant and on a computer so it is, 3d12/3d1 has 15 frame start up. it has -1/0 on block (probably 0). Thats 15 frames free if you want to loop it into itself...

Your opponent has any attack thats lower than 15 frames, for example the standard D1, thats going to stuff you.

Smokes 3d12 > d1 is a frame trap because of your 6 frame down 1 beating other peoples attempts to do anything after your -1/0 frames.

Because its a frame trap, your opponent either has to have a 6frame poke or special and hope you are a frame or so out to win the trade, or just block low.

Any other action that doesnt involve a 6 frame attack, armour, or blocking will just mean they get hit by the d1.

So smokes normal moveset already by just looking at the frames you can see that you have to win a frame war or have armour to get out of that.

Then we see that smokes d1 does like 1% damage and only +1 on hit, thats not overly threatening really. A poke would stand a good chance of stuffing that frame trap, if its not done to the frame properly, and if you lose the frame war, you block.

Now this isnt me trashing your 3d12 loops on block, its a cool thought yes, but 3d12 can only go so far in chip damage, and theres a lot of time to get a poke out or even a full combo, meaning that your risking yourself alot just for a bit of chip.

What i like most about the 3d12>d1 frame trap is that if they dont know to counterpoke out they are going to have to block low, and thats where a better application of the mind game comes into play.

You could use b2 now, which is also 15 frames, but they cant block that low like a d1 or 3(d12), and if theyre gonna stuff your 3d12, they would stuff the b2 aswell just the same. Your on the same risk, you still get full combo, only you give up a bit of chip to have that tasty overhead, which beats the low block.

The only problem with it is the b2,3 on block, which i cant really reccomend a go to option there. I would usually drift away for instance, i dont wanna be in pressure.

So really if your going to be doing 3d12 loops at all you need to mix it up. You cant loop 3d12 on block without significant risk and huge frame gaps for your opponent to do something, that's all there is to it. So if you are getting these alot on your opponent, tell them to hold down and push 1.

You need those 3d12 > d1 frame traps to show the opponent they cant try get out, and if your using the 3d12 loops (sparingly at best i imagine) , you need them overheads in there too or you are just going to lose every time when they stuff your 15 frame 3d12 and a d1 doesnt come out.
 
I have thought about this a lot and honestly when we have some answers to this question I think Smoke will be pretty fully explored.

I was playing last night against a nasty Jade player. From jump distance I never really had a good answer for what to do. I am in range for Jade's shadow kick so that sucks, out of range for a b2 to hit, I could dash in for a poke or string but that would leave me open to a lot of things Jade can do, and I can not jump because his AA was really on point. I basically felt like I was going to lose unless I ran away and he made mistakes. I know Jade has massive range but this is the same situation against a lot of characters. Anytime you do not have the life lead a smart player will put you in this situation every chance they get.

I like to stagger strings here and there. Works great online but offline you have to keep them guessing because Smoke is so slow that if they read your stagger and you do not throw you are screwed. 15 frame start up on all of Smoke's launching strings leaves him open to most of the cast if not all.

Smoke is a juggernaut once he is going but getting his offense started is sometimes so tough. I like the use of invisibility to get the opponent to do something you can take advantage of. I just really hate that if you use any of Smoke's special moves while invisible they can see the smoke from the move. That really blows.
 

G4S KT

Gaming4Satan Founder
If my maths is correct, and i am an accountant and on a computer so it is, 3d12/3d1 has 15 frame start up. it has -1/0 on block (probably 0). Thats 15 frames free if you want to loop it into itself...

Your opponent has any attack thats lower than 15 frames, for example the standard D1, thats going to stuff you.

Smokes 3d12 > d1 is a frame trap because of your 6 frame down 1 beating other peoples attempts to do anything after your -1/0 frames.

Because its a frame trap, your opponent either has to have a 6frame poke or special and hope you are a frame or so out to win the trade, or just block low.

Any other action that doesnt involve a 6 frame attack, armour, or blocking will just mean they get hit by the d1.

So smokes normal moveset already by just looking at the frames you can see that you have to win a frame war or have armour to get out of that.

Then we see that smokes d1 does like 1% damage and only +1 on hit, thats not overly threatening really. A poke would stand a good chance of stuffing that frame trap, if its not done to the frame properly, and if you lose the frame war, you block.

Now this isnt me trashing your 3d12 loops on block, its a cool thought yes, but 3d12 can only go so far in chip damage, and theres a lot of time to get a poke out or even a full combo, meaning that your risking yourself alot just for a bit of chip.

What i like most about the 3d12>d1 frame trap is that if they dont know to counterpoke out they are going to have to block low, and thats where a better application of the mind game comes into play.

You could use b2 now, which is also 15 frames, but they cant block that low like a d1 or 3(d12), and if theyre gonna stuff your 3d12, they would stuff the b2 aswell just the same. Your on the same risk, you still get full combo, only you give up a bit of chip to have that tasty overhead, which beats the low block.

The only problem with it is the b2,3 on block, which i cant really reccomend a go to option there. I would usually drift away for instance, i dont wanna be in pressure.

So really if your going to be doing 3d12 loops at all you need to mix it up. You cant loop 3d12 on block without significant risk and huge frame gaps for your opponent to do something, that's all there is to it. So if you are getting these alot on your opponent, tell them to hold down and push 1.

You need those 3d12 > d1 frame traps to show the opponent they cant try get out, and if your using the 3d12 loops (sparingly at best i imagine) , you need them overheads in there too or you are just going to lose every time when they stuff your 15 frame 3d12 and a d1 doesnt come out.
Well, it's technically correct that 3d12 > d1 is a pseudo trap that will result in a frame war, and that it is an "optimal" situation according to the numbers at first glance. that no longer works for me against the people I play. CD Jr, Maxter, CD, Riu48, Scoot, J360 etc all know this match up and if they see 3d12 on block, they know to block d1. That d1 is punishable by their own d1 and then they have advantage. Jax especially because his d1 on hit guarantees a f4 and that's just a shitty situation to be. So, since they expect the poke, sometimes I won't poke. I'll just do the string again and I get another block string since they remain blocking waiting for the poke.

I too, got into this rut of "optimal" mix ups. But, if you stick to what's "optimal", they are no longer mix ups.

Yea, if I'm playing someone I've never played before or who doesn't know the match up that well I will do the d1 trap, since it's natural to want to jump after a full string is blocked. But, if they know the game well enough and are punishing your pokes, you can't do that. The d1 trap and d1 spam will get your pressure reversed immediately against these guys because they're so on top of it. So, for me, it doesn't work anymore and I need to expand Smoke's offense.

3d1 loops are good because even though the actual window is 15 frames, it's too fast to do on reaction. In order to break out of a 3d1 loop, they have to commit to it on anticipation, and if they guess wrong and you do the full string they get hit with a full combo. It's not as good as Nightwolf's f312, but it's the same principle.

15 frame start up on all of Smoke's launching strings leaves him open to most of the cast if not all.
This.

Add to that the huge cooldown of many of his stagger strings making them obvious, super short range and rather slow jabs, and the fewest strings in the game, you get a character who's rushdown is straight up shitty.

I've found some unorthodox ways to improve it, some of which I've detailed, but I'm hoping collaboration will lead to more.

EDIT:

The whole thing that brought this on is that I've become increasingly skilled with both Kabal and Jax. When you really know those characters, going back to Smoke you feel kind of powerless in the offense department.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
So KT you use it because your opponents are conditioned or more learned now to how smokes normals work.

Thats pretty much why smoke players have such diverse styles and everybody has their own things that work for them.

If all Smokes played the same we are up shit creek!

Even making these threads is making us less threatening when everybody reads it and learns some tricks that they might not have seen before.

On the plus side, keep it up smoke players, were uncovering what smokes really made of!
 

SZSR

Noob
d3 into cross over jump and 3d1 into itself are interesting options that I hadn't considered. I'll give those a try. What is 3d1 like on block? Neutral?


While I agree with you, you do need some sort of offensive gameplan for when you're down on life and you can't run out the clock.
That's where knowing your opponent's counter-options. Like when trying to get in on Kung Lao. I start by jumping in from full screen. But I stop and wait, then dash in, try a low poke or if i'm 3/4 of the screen away, do a Smoke bomb to fish a counter attack. When in mid- close, I play it as safe as possible, whiffing all of his fast pokes to try to get the opponent to do something. Of course they do their safe options and I get blown up, so that's where my aggressive Smoke strategy ends.

We just have to develop a Smoke punish thread, like showing all characters' attacks and what we can do to punish it.

Another strategy I do is a cancelled :en Shake in front of my opponent into a cross-up. Most players usually try to sweep so I blow them up when they do, works great in the corner.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
That's where knowing your opponent's counter-options. Like when trying to get in on Kung Lao. I start by jumping in from full screen. But I stop and wait, then dash in, try a low poke or if i'm 3/4 of the screen away, do a Smoke bomb to fish a counter attack. When in mid- close, I play it as safe as possible, whiffing all of his fast pokes to try to get the opponent to do something. Of course they do their safe options and I get blown up, so that's where my aggressive Smoke strategy ends.

We just have to develop a Smoke punish thread, like showing all characters' attacks and what we can do to punish it.

Another strategy I do is a cancelled :en Shake in front of my opponent into a cross-up. Most players usually try to sweep so I blow them up when they do, works great in the corner.
you can punish everything with 21xxsmokebomb starter as long as you are fast. For ball up animations you should wait til they are going to touch the ground and you can punish before they block.

All smokes punishes will come from b2,3 or 2,1 depending on spacing. From somewhere range dependant punishes use smoke bomb or telepunch, ie a KL spin full screen is punishable by smoke bomb, even cyraxes bombs can be smoke bombed on reaction cos his recovery is bad, learn your spacing though you wont do that full screen.

Just learn the matchups and then you learn to punish, theres really no hidden strategy behind what punish you want, unless they have a breaker then you can either xray or go for chip setups, but you might aswell just use their breaker if you get a chance, theres no 30/40% unbreakables with smoke like you would with kitana or quan, so just play it easy and go for the 21.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
can't Johnny cage b3 after you d3 and jump? his hitbox is kinda ridiculous...
Depends on the frame data for jumps but if this can jump over sektors uppercut which can pretty much hit behind his head, i would have thought it jumps the b3. I would have thought that a sweep or something or even mileenas d4 would stop the punch connecting if not more.

Can test it but someone with the capabilities should do a video clearing this up.
 

HD Smoke

Noob
So KT you use it because your opponents are conditioned or more learned now to how smokes normals work.

Thats pretty much why smoke players have such diverse styles and everybody has their own things that work for them.

If all Smokes played the same we are up shit creek!

Even making these threads is making us less threatening when everybody reads it and learns some tricks that they might not have seen before.

On the plus side, keep it up smoke players, were uncovering what smokes really made of!
I agree with this. I believe if you combined KT Smith's Smoke with CDjr's Smoke you'd have a Smoke almost noone could beat. Even if you combined KT's sick smoke with ATL Reds smoke youd have a top 3 tournamnet placer everytime. So many Smokes play so different. Even the big 4 Smoke tournament players (KT, Cdjr, ATL, Tom Wafflez) play Smoke differently and have their stronger points than the other. All 4 are amazing with Smoke. Even Aris played Smoke different. He never used reset or NJP in kombos, just the same 36% easy to get kombo that is personally the best one to use IMO since its hard to drop.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
Had a serious practice up on some of the stuff mentioned in this thread yesterday at Ketchup + Mustards house, and after taking notes on some cdjr play at Apex grand finals using some of these ideas, ive been having a LOT less success than i would have hoped to have considering the thought that goes behind this.

First thing:
Personally, I find myself fishing with max range d4 to start pressure from neutral positioning a lot, probably more than I should. But, I can't really find any other good way besides spacing. It's pretty easy to jump over a d4 and I haven't been able to AA standing 2 after a whiffed d4 and then I'm in pressure.
This all day. Crossing me up over my pokes is the bane of my destruction. Need a hell of a lot more work on my spacing, need to not get whiff punished for b2 that is just out of range, need to follow up my pokes with less pokes so that i dont get crossed up as often.

Next:
What if you do this instead:

3d1 > 3d1 > throw

now you've done 20% damage, built maybe half a bar of meter and given yourself advantage, especially if they don't tech roll after the throw. If they do tech roll, you can still get a free invis or drift after them if you so choose.

To me, the second scenario is a MUCH better choice. But, 3d12 and 112 are the only strings that can fake someone into eating a throw. All the rest of his strings are about 0 when staggered, but with 21 and b2 and b1 the opening is so obvious that you can't follow up with another block string and are forced to poke.
No. Just no. 3d1 is awful, incredibly awful. Disgustingly awful. The 3rd hit in the string comes out so fast after the 3d1 that if you see the 3rd hit not come out you have an obvious opening to counter poke. You are at neutral at best after 3d1, and d1 will beat out anything you do that isnt a "frame trapping" d1. There is no way that tick throwing from 3d1 works, and i saw absolutely zero success against it, and got left in a bad situation more times than not. If you are seeing alot of success with 3d1, you need to tell your opponents in all good spirit that they should check their reactions and learn to d1 smoke at all opportunities, very disapointed at how unreliable this was.

Now for the best one.
At point blank range, on hit, d3 gives enough advantage to cross up your opponent and clear all of their grounded normals. This was tested with Sektor and his 6 frame d1, 6 frame standing 1, and 7 frame big-arm uppercut all failed to knock Smoke out of the air on the way up. They can, however, jump themselves and go for an aerial AA (which you can beat in a frame war), or use fast advancing AA specials (like Kano ball, flip kick, hat spin, etc.) which will beat you or at least escape if they see it coming. But, besides that I think this is a pretty big deal.
Im SO upset that this doesnt work. This was the FIRST thing i tested at the twins casuals and boy was i sad that it doesnt work. If sektor moves backwards even slightly, the uppercut hits. If you move backwards a slight bit more, you can anti air with absolutely zero effort. Tested with smokes jumping punches and kick from a variety of d3 ranges, and no it does not give enough advantage to clear your opponent unless he lets you cross him up. Hell jumping back would even get you out if you cover it with an early air punch/kick so that smoke cant get the air to air. The way you made this sound was as if smoke can get a free safe crossup from a d3 on hit, providing that your opponent doesnt use a fast special. This wasnt the case, in the heat of a match i got away with some d3 crossups, but once they were aware that i had access to a free crossup when i d3, they didnt even hesitate to punish me for trying it.

Again, in the heat of a match you will get away with this, but all it takes is a small step back or a slight delay on the anti airs, and your stuffed. Use this cautiously at best, the d3 advantage GUARANTEES that you can get off a blocked string. Going for the cross up is evidently a bad idea if your opponent knows that you think its free.

Note the bit in bold, you are technically correct, i didnt get knocked out on the way up, but i sadly did get hit for standard anti air combo on the way down.

I really like hearing about new things, and especially when someone has tested it for you and is using it with success in their strategy, im not trying to write anything of yours off because if its working then by all means keep using it, just be ready to have something in backup when you get figured out !

On a related note: throws are good. Use them when you can, its damage and a knockdown, which you can follow up with more pressure from lots of different angles : After a forward throw- Telepunch whiff, meaty combo will work like the air throw, just a little less time to do it. But (@Mustard ty for this) Mashing the 4 in the db4 motion after your throw allows alot more lenience on the timing because negetive edge and mk's baby input window will make the throw come out as soon as your recovery frames end. (The mashing teleport was used to reliably get b2,3>smokebomb> (teleport crossunder) >3d12 to come out, allowing you to pick which side you carry them to after a b2,3 and have enough time to get 3d12 to connect so applied it here with success too)

Another setup off forward throw is to drift forward and d3 them. Beaten by wakeups, but easily baits wake ups too.

Off a back throw i think you can get a EX smoke bomb otg for the 10% chip, aswell as variations on the setups above.

[MENTION=2765]KT Smith[/MENTION] if you can see why i was going wrong with any of the stuff, please help me. Im more dissapointed that i couldnt get success from them, the reason i posted this all, not to make your ideas look bad!
 

G4S KT

Gaming4Satan Founder
Had a serious practice up on some of the stuff mentioned in this thread yesterday at Ketchup + Mustards house, and after taking notes on some cdjr play at Apex grand finals using some of these ideas, ive been having a LOT less success than i would have hoped to have considering the thought that goes behind this.

First thing:


This all day. Crossing me up over my pokes is the bane of my destruction. Need a hell of a lot more work on my spacing, need to not get whiff punished for b2 that is just out of range, need to follow up my pokes with less pokes so that i dont get crossed up as often.

Next:


No. Just no. 3d1 is awful, incredibly awful. Disgustingly awful. The 3rd hit in the string comes out so fast after the 3d1 that if you see the 3rd hit not come out you have an obvious opening to counter poke. You are at neutral at best after 3d1, and d1 will beat out anything you do that isnt a "frame trapping" d1. There is no way that tick throwing from 3d1 works, and i saw absolutely zero success against it, and got left in a bad situation more times than not. If you are seeing alot of success with 3d1, you need to tell your opponents in all good spirit that they should check their reactions and learn to d1 smoke at all opportunities, very disapointed at how unreliable this was.

Now for the best one.


Im SO upset that this doesnt work. This was the FIRST thing i tested at the twins casuals and boy was i sad that it doesnt work. If sektor moves backwards even slightly, the uppercut hits. If you move backwards a slight bit more, you can anti air with absolutely zero effort. Tested with smokes jumping punches and kick from a variety of d3 ranges, and no it does not give enough advantage to clear your opponent unless he lets you cross him up. Hell jumping back would even get you out if you cover it with an early air punch/kick so that smoke cant get the air to air. The way you made this sound was as if smoke can get a free safe crossup from a d3 on hit, providing that your opponent doesnt use a fast special. This wasnt the case, in the heat of a match i got away with some d3 crossups, but once they were aware that i had access to a free crossup when i d3, they didnt even hesitate to punish me for trying it.

Again, in the heat of a match you will get away with this, but all it takes is a small step back or a slight delay on the anti airs, and your stuffed. Use this cautiously at best, the d3 advantage GUARANTEES that you can get off a blocked string. Going for the cross up is evidently a bad idea if your opponent knows that you think its free.

Note the bit in bold, you are technically correct, i didnt get knocked out on the way up, but i sadly did get hit for standard anti air combo on the way down.

I really like hearing about new things, and especially when someone has tested it for you and is using it with success in their strategy, im not trying to write anything of yours off because if its working then by all means keep using it, just be ready to have something in backup when you get figured out !

On a related note: throws are good. Use them when you can, its damage and a knockdown, which you can follow up with more pressure from lots of different angles : After a forward throw- Telepunch whiff, meaty combo will work like the air throw, just a little less time to do it. But (@Mustard ty for this) Mashing the 4 in the db4 motion after your throw allows alot more lenience on the timing because negetive edge and mk's baby input window will make the throw come out as soon as your recovery frames end. (The mashing teleport was used to reliably get b2,3>smokebomb> (teleport crossunder) >3d12 to come out, allowing you to pick which side you carry them to after a b2,3 and have enough time to get 3d12 to connect so applied it here with success too)

Another setup off forward throw is to drift forward and d3 them. Beaten by wakeups, but easily baits wake ups too.

Off a back throw i think you can get a EX smoke bomb otg for the 10% chip, aswell as variations on the setups above.

[MENTION=2765]KT Smith[/MENTION] if you can see why i was going wrong with any of the stuff, please help me. Im more dissapointed that i couldnt get success from them, the reason i posted this all, not to make your ideas look bad!
I'm actually pretty shocked that 3d1 mix up didn't work for you. Both CD Jr and I use it and it's been very effective. Also, did you see any of my Apex top 8 matches? I know I got blown up by Chris G (he mind fucked me first) but my matches against REO and Blue Nine were played very solid aside from some dropped combos.

You seem to be in the same place that I was in when I started this thread, but since then I've had a mental break through in Smoke's metagame. The thing is, just because there is a way to counter something, or that when you look at the numbers there are openings, doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. It's more about reacting to how your opponent is playing. That actually opens up a huge amount of shenanigans for Smoke.

I know I mentioned that d1 xx SB wasn't good for pressure, but I could tell that Blue Nine was anxious to get moves off so I did it and it worked every time. Chris G was much more deliberate and cautious with blocking and I got blown up for doing it. In that situation I should have done more 3d1 mix ups. There's a big lesson in there.

It's also a matter of predictability. If every time you hit d3 you go to cross up, yea, you'll get blown up once they figure it out. (this one I'm theory fighting) but if you hit d3 and they don't block, but walk backward, IJK should hit them. Just more mind games.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
Despite any mindgames you want to play, if your opponent has eyes and thumbs he can d1 you on reaction to the 3rd hit of 3d12 not coming out, because its so obvious. I wasnt being predictable enough with it, but if your opponent knows what 3d12 looks like, they will be able to react to 3d1 with a poke, and poke will beat throw, will beat jump, will beat another 3. Theres just no way to hide the fact that 3d12 didnt come out, and they can and should react to that every time and if they dont then they deserve the throw. Tick throws just arent that viable off this string, theres not enough to expect.

2,1 throw could possibly work out, although i wasnt using it because you need to jail into 21 and if i hit a jip i wont usually go to 21 throw as its a clear premature end to what could, and should have been some pressure and chip.

2,1 has more options like i use 21 alot on its own, meaning that i can use the followup as a mixup. 21 throw would be okay if you got success out of the 21 string already, maybe with some 21x poke/4/sb/drift. then they may be hesitant about following up, but only because this string is quite fast and recovery is quicker and alot less predictable.

I like the idea of 11 for this too, but i dont see it being practical. 112 is like nightwolfs f3 string where the last hit comes out very delayed. If there was any way to condition them to expect the third hit, which i dont think there is as its a bad string, then this could be perfect for ticking and mixing up.

Also you have like, 3 or 4 frames of advantage. Thats 3 or 4 60ths of a second were talking about here. You cant even begin to see them walk back, or even react to what they do. You see the hit and you hold jump or you dont, thats your options. They see you jump however, and they get enough time to take a small step back and do something, even an uppercut suffices but characters have much more punishing options... Its not as good as its made out if you think of the risk involved.

On the plus side of this however, if your opponent is mashing d1 or something after your d3 to try and put a dent on your pressure, then jumping over them becomes more of an option. Again you have to react to your opponents habits and they still get to block, but atleast you keep the pressure for a little longer.

Whats your opinion on fishing with b2 after a d3, with a small backdash, its not a great way to use your advantage considering what options you have but its pretty cool if you condition with lots of poke strings first. day 1 smoke tech is viable now that people expect more from you, why people still block low instead of just taking the like 1% pokes i will never know.

Also if your looking for a good way to hide throws, drift towards then throw you can actually get the throw to come out on the last frame and you dont become visible until you actually make contact, so unless they are mashing they wont be able to tech on reaction. Setups into drift that put you in throw range arent the safest, but you can drift up and throw as they stand before they can see the throw come out properly.

What do you use after the throw, we seem to be focusing on ways you can get them but not really any on the aftermath..

Also: didnt see any matches except for you vs chris g, and chris g vs cdjr . Other than that i was busy watching slips blowing everyone up on the other stream :(
 

G4S KT

Gaming4Satan Founder
Whats your opinion on fishing with b2 after a d3, with a small backdash, its not a great way to use your advantage considering what options you have but its pretty cool if you condition with lots of poke strings first. day 1 smoke tech is viable now that people expect more from you, why people still block low instead of just taking the like 1% pokes i will never know.
Fishing with b2 in general is something I used to do a lot, but have cut way back on. It's actually extremely easy to jump over which is deceptive and you eat a full punish for it.

smokey said:
What do you use after the throw, we seem to be focusing on ways you can get them but not really any on the aftermath..
My favorite is invis. It's such a good bait.

smokey said:
Also: didnt see any matches except for you vs chris g, and chris g vs cdjr . Other than that i was busy watching slips blowing everyone up on the other stream :(
Yea, that was a shitty match for me; a lesson on what not to do against reptile. He mind fucked me so hard. He also pretty much gave up after the first match against CD Jr (which was won almost entirely off of throw damage, which was awesome). I wish he had picked noob saibot against me, lol.

I'll post the videos up in the gameplay thread, to keep things organized.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
I dont think chris g was ready for that sort of shit from CDjr at all. He didnt know how to fight with that pressure into the throw every time, so CD exploited it and that was the point in which he had already lost. CDjr plays very ignorantly from what i see and Chris didnt fight back well enough to slow down CD's game and make him play "safer" if you will, that was the way it stayed i guess, it really did look like trolling though when every single bit of pressure was converted to a throw... Dont see why he didnt play his reptile, thats a much easier match to control for rep as his mixups are better and his dash allows him fast access to smokes face.

Ive cut back on b2 as well, but only because i was having a hard time getting my opponents to respect it when they saw it being used oten. When i use it now it tends to connect for a combo because im not throwing it around the way i used to, but i still use it as a spacing tool from midscreen, just need to react better off it so i dont get whiffs in punishable range.

People trying to jump over a b2,3 after the d3 will be caught in the air if you take a small backdash first so that its barely in range. Il have more of a play around with it because i have inconsistant results (its mk..) but from the right spacing you can use b2,3 for lots of different stuff. i can b2 3 where the 3 will hit if you dont move or jump. From a D4 you have perfect space to walk back a little bit and then you have a max range b2, which is out of range of other peoples pokes and unless they are mashing d4 themselves it will counter any attempt to hit you that they try (obvious counters are fast specials). The trick is to delay the b2,3 and then react to their reaction. Dont delay it too long though, if you see them jump, anti air, if they dont then you are pretty good for a b2.

B2 is 0 on block so you lose nothing from hitting them with it in any situation, and you can follow with the string and special for manouvering/hitconfirms or you can b2 > d1 for that "frame trap" that beats out anything that isnt 6frames but i usually d3 or d4 (the range/pushback is better and d1 might whiff).

Of course these are the good points. The downside is that it conditions them to stand up, thats never good unless you are planning on winning your match using pokes and throws only. Its also vital to space well and know the range, because as i am finding out now spacing in mk is harder than it looks, and never as forgiving as it looks either. Using d4 for visual aid is good as the pushback combined with a small move back will leave you just in range. However the opponent can out space smoke easily if they have attacks that can be thrown fast and at mid range (kitana f21 for example).
 

G4S KT

Gaming4Satan Founder
some interesting info that I don't think is widely known yet.

Standing 1 has no cool down whatsoever

The properties of Smoke's jab strings are backwards from the rest of the cast: meaning that standing 1 and 2 both hit special mid on a crouch blocking opponent (they will whiff on naked crouch) but the second hit of both his jab strings (11, 21) whiffs on crouch block.

To my knowledge, He is the only character like this. Everyone else either all jabs whiff over head, or it's the second or third hit of the string that is special mid.

You can use this info however you see fit........
 
Throwing out 11 strings sporadically is beastly. I've never known why it works, but it's always seems like that string seems to catch people when I don't think it should. Never sat down and really grinded with it to figure out its exact properties. Maybe I'll do that next time I play offline.

Now, I also want to briefly describe my personal playstyle with Smoke that has yielded the best results for me; what does and does not work in my experience. I try to play in a way that makes the opponent feel as uncomfortable/annoyed as possible. I want to get them out of their element. This means that I'm willing to take 8% damage if it means only doing 4% in chip to my enemy, but confusing them in the process. People become terribly shaken when they see things they don't know how to fight, or see a playstyle of a character that is abnormal to most who play a certain character. Getting a life lead and running away unhinges people. They are FORCED to close the gap to try to do damage. This is where Smoke excels in dealing his BIG damage. How fitting his ghetto "rushdown" is so horrible.

Rushdown Smoke is very viable if used sparingly. And I don't use 3d12 when rushing down. My "true" rushdown offense consists of d1, d3, d4, standing 2, 214 xx smoke forwards/away/bomb, grabs, and b2 xx bomb. Notice that I don't use 3d12 at all when rushing down.

We all know how good d1, both alone and over and over can be; I'm not going to go into detail with that.

d3 because it lowers Smoke's hitbox CONSIDERABLY. It's only 1 frame slower than d1, has more range, and recovers much faster both on hit and whiff. d3 (whiff) > d3 > d3 > d4 bomb has been an interesting crossup defense for me, I have very mixed results so far... but it's definitely an improvement over trying to d1 somebody crossing you up which results in getting blown up 100% of the time. The pushback on d3 is pretty good too, and feels great on defense to try to gain some space.

d4: b23 setup, grab setup, antiair. we all love this move dearly already.

Standing 2: Now obviously 214 antiairs are all the rage lately... but I wanna give standing 2's in and near the corner my seal of approval. 2's and d1's constantly thrown in your opponents face seems unbelievably effective, if not for any real advantage then for the suprrise/confusion factor of it all. This kind of offense feels like it shuts down an enemy's ability to jump out as they're just gonna get antiaired. Basically instills fear to act in your opponent unless they try to win a poke war, which even if they win isn't a big deal since they've just poked you once for your one or more pokes you've gotten in on them. Net gain with little risk. Be wary of parries and fast specials.

214 xx Y: I LOVE the spacing that 214 on block gives. Mixing your opponent up with 214 xx smoke towards, smoke towards > crossup, smoke away, and smoke away > jip is extremely, uh, "cute" play. It forces your opponent to make a decision and ACT ON IT, and this is exactly where smoke wants to be. When the enemy starts to realize what you're doing, they're gonna let off block as soon as that 4 connects. that's when you start 214 bomb and catch them for a 32% punish with an easy reset attempt. If the opponent is keen to what you're attempting, just smoke away. Congrats, you've done 3% chip damage for free and got away safely. You're now a little more than jump distance away, and can play your antiair/b23 punishing game.

Runaway Smoke

Once I've got a life lead using any of the above tactics, all that's left is running away and punishing. Smoke has the best tools in the game to keep enemies off of him/get them off of him; it's asinine to not abuse them. People become tilted when all you do is run away from them and prevent them from doing ANYTHING to you while you chuckle to yourself, build free meter, and run the clock. I make it a point to abuse everything in smoke's arsenal I can to stay fullscreen as much as possible. I can't help but smile when people without fast advancing specials try to close on me, and I LOL every time I catch them with a b23 while casually strolling backwards or antiair them with 214 bomb and then reset them.

So, where's 3d12?

Meaties after knockdowns. Punishes on people in roll state (think raiden blocked superman). That's it. That shit's too slow for anything else. Everyone and their mother knows how to fight 3d12 > d1, it's obsolete.
 

G4S KT

Gaming4Satan Founder
FrothyOmen , that seems like a pretty solid approach with Smoke. The one thing I took away from your post that I hadn't thought of before is to block string xx drift away > jump in. Good shit. You can't even tell that Smoke is jumping out of the drift animation until he's well in the air and unless you're REO or CD Jr or some other Jedi, I doubt you'll get anti-air'ed

While I agree that 3d12 > d1 on it's own is completely worthless, now that I've started including 3d1 mix ups into his rush down game, it opens up a whole world of possibilities and I've been having great success with it. I know that concerns were raised that the window between when one 3d1 ends and the next connects is large on paper, in practice it doesn't turn out that way.

the rhythm of 3d12 is such that it isn't obvious whether or not you're going to complete the string or stagger it to go for another 3d1 or tick throw or whatever. Especially since every MK player everywhere has had 3d12 ingrained into their heads.

They have roughly 9 frames of freedom between a 3d1 loop, which is small enough to make reacting to it EXTREMELY hard. If they try to poke you and they're late you get a full combo. Your opponent will likely commit before hand leaving you in control.

Once I start the block string, the mix up possibilities I use are:

3d1 > 3d1
3d1 > throw
3d1 > 3d12
3d1 > d1 (to bait jump outs)

I've also started using d3 out of 3d12 since most everyone respects the d1 follow up and rarely crouch blocks. d3 on hit allows the pressure to continue...
 
FrothyOmen , that seems like a pretty solid approach with Smoke. The one thing I took away from your post that I hadn't thought of before is to block string xx drift away > jump in. Good shit. You can't even tell that Smoke is jumping out of the drift animation until he's well in the air and unless you're REO or CD Jr or some other Jedi, I doubt you'll get anti-air'ed
Exactly. :)

While I agree that 3d12 > d1 on it's own is completely worthless, now that I've started including 3d1 mix ups into his rush down game, it opens up a whole world of possibilities and I've been having great success with it. I know that concerns were raised that the window between when one 3d1 ends and the next connects is large on paper, in practice it doesn't turn out that way.

the rhythm of 3d12 is such that it isn't obvious whether or not you're going to complete the string or stagger it to go for another 3d1 or tick throw or whatever. Especially since every MK player everywhere has had 3d12 ingrained into their heads.

They have roughly 9 frames of freedom between a 3d1 loop, which is small enough to make reacting to it EXTREMELY hard. If they try to poke you and they're late you get a full combo. Your opponent will likely commit before hand leaving you in control.
Seriously? That's a much smaller window than I assumed it to be. Reptile's dash on block is more negative than that, and quite a lot of people can't even punish that so who in their right mind will consistently punish a 3d1 stagger string? This is very interesting, and I'll try incorporating it into my play somehow... just not entirely sure where I can fit it in yet. I need some soul searching LOL

Once I start the block string, the mix up possibilities I use are:

3d1 > 3d1
3d1 > throw
3d1 > 3d12
3d1 > d1 (to bait jump outs)

I've also started using d3 out of 3d12 since most everyone respects the d1 follow up and rarely crouch blocks. d3 on hit allows the pressure to continue...
3d1 xx smoke away > jip > d4 > d3 > crossup punch > d4 > d4 > b23 xx bomb combo OR throw. their minds will be so full of fuck