Sub-Zero General Discussion Thread

[IceNine]

So basically a zoning variation and a straightforward offense variation.

Out of all the options. No trap/mixup variant at all. Boring. They played it way too safe.

My issue isnt that he's bad, it's that he's not fun. I dont understand why you guys are talking like we said he was bottom tier.

There were accusations in this (and other threads) that Sub-Zero's variations had no thought put into them and had no synergy. I remember the visceral reactions quite clearly! And that's what I disagree with. I absolutely want to play with ground ice, it was my most anticipated subby move, and I also want to see how that jank ice klone substitute works out. I don't see the appeal in Rising Ice at all but that's neither here nor there. The point is I think the foundation's pretty solid and demonstrates that they are trying to develop variations with a plan in mind. And that bodes well for whatever variations are coming next.

Are Subby's first two variations pretty basic? Yeah, absolutely. I also think this was by design - I'm told Paolo himself cited Subby and Jade as two beginner friendly characters. They probably wanted him to have simple, easy to understand variations. But that doesn't mean you're wrong for wanting something spicier from Subby, you're absolutely not. Nothing wrong with having wants, no sir. I just don't think it's worth getting so angry and venomous about, though - I strongly doubt variation addition updates will be as sparse as some have suggested.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

There were accusations in this (and other threads) that Sub-Zero's variations had no thought put into them and had no synergy. I remember the visceral reactions quite clearly! And that's what I disagree with. I absolutely want to play with ground ice, it was my most anticipated subby move, and I also want to see how that jank ice klone substitute works out. I don't see the appeal in Rising Ice at all but that's neither here nor there. The point is I think the foundation's pretty solid and demonstrates that they are trying to develop variations with a plan in mind. And that bodes well for whatever variations are coming next.

Are Subby's first two variations pretty basic? Yeah, absolutely. I also think this was by design - I'm told Paolo himself cited Subby and Jade as two beginner friendly characters. They probably wanted him to have simple, easy to understand variations. But that doesn't mean you're wrong for wanting something spicier from Subby, you're absolutely not. Nothing wrong with having wants, no sir. I just don't think it's worth getting so angry and venomous about, though - I strongly doubt variation addition updates will be as sparse as some have suggested.

Rising ice gives SZ a better launcher and could potentially be a good anti air, which is what drew me to it

 

[Lokheit]

Dead of Winter:

The first one is for anti-zoning because Deep Freeze goes through projectiles and leads to a full combo. The problem with this move before was that Slide does such little damage that from 3/4screen to full screen all you would get from the Deep Freeze was a slap on the wrist. Cold Shoulder makes it so you could get a beefy 20% if you Deep Freeze from anywhere to punish zoning.

In MKX, without using stamina, you could freeze an opponent from full screen, dash forward and jump in punch leading to full combo (many didn't know this though) so changing slide shouldn't be an improvement as you're not going to use slide or charge in that situation.

I don't like how they slapped these moves together. The zoning one looks like they threw all of his projectiles together when in reality it's better to have some and then some combo starter or finisher to complement.

I was looking forward to using Kreeping Ice (which combos in the corner with meter like Rising Ice) and Air Polar Axe to mix up jump ins.

 

[LastBoom]

In MKX, without using stamina, you could freeze an opponent from full screen, dash forward and jump in punch leading to full combo (many didn't know this though) so changing slide shouldn't be an improvement as you're not going to use slide or charge in that situation.

I don't like how they slapped these moves together. The zoning one looks like they threw all of his projectiles together when in reality it's better to have some and then some combo starter or finisher to complement.

I was looking forward to using Kreeping Ice (which combos in the corner with meter like Rising Ice) and Air Polar Axe to mix up jump ins.

I agree i don't' like the zoning variation at all i hope in one more combo heavy variation with Kreeping Ice / Rising Ice

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

What is archetype of sub-zero? High-risk, high-reward, yolo? Is his mixups both unsafe? What is his best mid and neutral tools at all?

 

[Lum@na]

Anyone got any of that sweet frame data? He wasn't particularly safe based on pre release stuff.

 

[Imperium]

An angle I'm not sure people've mentioned when it comes to the Cold Shoulder is that unlike slide, Amplified Shoulder keeps the corner. I think this can be pretty valuable for Subby's "offensive" variation as a character who retains the ability to get 50/50 confirms, allowing him to juice up the ender's damage a bit without sacrificing positioning. I definitely don't feel that the variation's abilities were slapped together haphazardly, there was definitely an idea here.

Although it is nice to have a little extra damage and to keep your same side, those factors don't overcome the fact that the slide has better range, low profiles high projectiles, is a low hit, and most importantly the swap of the move takes a slot away. A slot Sub-Zero can't afford since deep freeze takes two slots.

It's just not good. Kold Shoulder would have to be safe on block for me to even consider using it in a custom variation.

 

[IceNine]

Although it is nice to have a little extra damage and to keep your same side, those factors don't overcome the fact that the slide has better range, low profiles high projectiles, is a low hit, and most importantly the swap of the move takes a slot away. A slot Sub-Zero can't afford since deep freeze takes two slots.

It's just not good. Kold Shoulder would have to be safe on block for me to even consider using it in a custom variation.

I think it's for these reasons that Deep Freeze is basically the only option Kold Shoulder would ever make sense with. Deep Freeze devalues Slide's low hit and anti-projectile properties IMO. Another thing I meant to mention in my initial post, but neglected to, is that amped Kold Shoulder also looks to provide excellent corner carry. That actually might be more important than keeping the corner.

I do think it's obviously not the best possible combination ever. But I don't think the devs are aiming for that, due to the concept of balance and whatnot. They're not aiming for "The Strongest Sub-Zero" so much as various focused Sub-Zeroes that they see synergy in, among other design choices.

All this said though, I do hope Kold Shoulder is better than what was seen in Reveal build, I think it ought to do more damage or have more utility. Make no mistake - it's the move I'm least excited about. But nevertheless, I felt it important to try and discern "why this move?" and I think I've got a pretty good understanding of that much, at least. (It still would have absolutely been better to just make the ability a modified amplify for Slide though, like Jade's Double Nitro Kick). I also hope Deep Freeze proves to be truly worth the 2 slots. I can certainly see how it might on paper, just need to get to playing the game with other human beings to see if it's as powerful practically as I imagine it being.

 

[Saviorself]

It's low-key upsetting going into this thread and seeing everyone complaining instead of talking about possibilities with his variations....

===========================================================

Thin Ice:

With the combo of the sickle-barrage, the mid projectile, and the downward air projectile I actually think he's going to be REALLY strong. It's still up in the air how negative on block sickle barrage is, but it does space you out far enough that stuff like Baraka's F4 won't reach imo. Also in the beta it was pretty clear that downward air projectiles end up being some of the best zoning tools in the game.

Lets not forget that his regular slide goes under high projectiles too. He could use it on reaction to any slow'ish startup projectiles (18-25frames). This means he'll be able to zone out the opponent without them being able to zone him out unless their zoning is fucking phenomenal.


Thin Ice Sub IMO has the potential to be as strong defensively as Grandmaster Subzero was in MKX. I really believe that.

The other, more offensive, variation is really good too though. If someone does have a super strong zoning game he won't be shit-outta-luck. Deep Freeze nullifies other projectiles and leads into full combo so it's going to be a hard time zoning him out unless played very well.

love your competitive attitude, i understand everyone's concerns of course. So polar Axes (havent seen this move posted anywhere) is a downward air porjectile similar ot jade and kabals?

I dont really understand why he has two projectiles, the startup on both seem very slow. The multi-icicle one is a high im assuming? which one is the safe one? and can you amplify them?

I'm interested as i never saw sub as a zoner. The amplified iceball that destroys projectiles seem really great imo, but idk if its worth losing slide.

 

[Circus]

Here's some Sub Zero frame data to make it easier to understand him!!!!

Unfornately, this isn't one of his variations so we don't have any of projectiles listed though.

Still though, enjoy!!!

love your competitive attitude, i understand everyone's concerns of course. So polar Axes (havent seen this move posted anywhere) is a downward air porjectile similar ot jade and kabals?

I dont really understand why he has two projectiles, the startup on both seem very slow. The multi-icicle one is a high im assuming? which one is the safe one? and can you amplify them?

I'm interested as i never saw sub as a zoner. The amplified iceball that destroys projectiles seem really great imo, but idk if its worth losing slide.

I know the slower one is a mid projectile and Polar Axes are the downward air projectiles you mentioned that Jade and Kabal have, but having the frame data on them would really help.


@TrulyAmiracle or @ShepherdOfFire

Do you think you could list or show the frame data equipable specials in the other variation with the projectiles?
I'll update this frame data sheet once someone lists them.

 

[Lum@na]

Of course Rising ice has great frame data! That's why we can't have it! Yarrr.

Cold shoulder is straight garbage. Damage sucks, amp sucks, full combo on block. Woof.

In the prebeta several strings could ONLY combo with Ampd Ice Ball while others were regular special cancels. Might make the variation worth it despite gimping yourself with FS.

 

[Radam]

I've been playing the game all day and in my opinion Sub-Zero is by far the worst. Because compared to the vast majority of characters he barely has any special moves and combos compared to the rest of the roster. It's really unfair in my opinion.

It's a really significant difference and I'm not even a Sub-Zero fan (Scorpion fan since MK1) , but I feel sorry for people who are because he is really limited in almost everyway.

I honestly expect hardcore Sub-Zero fans might even trade in the game because of how much of a let down he is.

Please don't get me wrong I love this game, but Sub-Zero was so bad I felt I had to write something about it.

 

[Lum@na]

If someone is going to trade in the game because their fav character is weak on release... Then they are a child or a moron. Oh well

 

[Circus]

Some of the missing frame data for his Thin Ice variation here. It's looking great.

Deep freeze:
is -14 ob

Icicles:
are +9 oh, -17 ob upclose, -11 max range. +5 on hit upclose, +10 max range. They go till halfsreen or so. 36f startup.

Ice wall:
-8 ob pointblank, 2 characters away 0 ob, +8-10 ob once it turns into a ball which around max slide distance, +16 ob fullscreen.
36f startup, knockdown on hit. Looks like it should combo to slide from far away but it doesnt.

Polar Axe:
is -8 upclose if you do it instant, -10 if you're absolute point blank, instant from max range is +3 ob.
on hit it's +16 and +21 from max range but can't combo to anything, game doesn't allow it.

So it looks like Icicles COULD be used to retreat safely. If it is only -11 on block at max range then it is absolutely not punishable, which is amazing for a retreating move. Scary good.

Ice Wall, his mid projectile, seems CRAZY good. It is more + on block the further back he is so it is not only a decent zoning tool, but it is a projectile he could follow behind for pressure too. He could even follow up an Ice Wall with Ice Ball full screen to catch people who try to zone back after a blocked Ice Wall.

Polar Axe being THIS safe on block is flat out amazing. So far we've only seen the frame data on downward projectiles from Jade and Kabal. Their downward air projectiles were already super great in the beta, and Sub's seems even better which is really nice.

It looks like breaking his defense in the Thin Ice Variation is going to be tough.

I've been playing the game all day and in my opinion Sub-Zero is by far the worst. Because compared to the vast majority of characters he barely has any special moves and combos compared to the rest of the roster. It's really unfair in my opinion.

It's a really significant difference and I'm not even a Sub-Zero fan (Scorpion fan since MK1) , but I feel sorry for people who are because he is really limited in almost everyway.

I honestly expect hardcore Sub-Zero fans might even trade in the game because of how much of a let down he is.

Please don't get me wrong I love this game, but Sub-Zero was so bad I felt I had to write something about it.

So he's not good because he doesn't have as many strings and special moves??? You could call him boring and that'd be fine, because everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to say that he isn't good because he doesn't have more moves is just flat out ridiculous dude, sorry.

Kano also barely has strings and special moves, but in the Kano forum all we are doing is finding tech and opportunities for him. The more discoveries we make, the more we realize how strong he is.

 

[Radam]

That is just the way my friends I felt about Sub-Zero. Sorry I didn't word it the way you would of liked.

We loved playing as Kano, yeah he didn't have as many combos and moves compared to some other characters, but he was way more fun and easy to destroy your opponent than Sub-Zero in our opinion.

These are day one impressions and casual play opinions and I really think that most casual Sub-Zero fans are going to hate using his default/ranked variations in MK11 at the very least.

 

[Braindead]

Initial impression:

I'm underwhelmed by sub and his variations. Pokes are bad and has only one mid that's quite useless. His low starter has a short range but safe so at least we have that.

The variation with the projectiles is ehhh. The daggers and the other projectile both have 36f start up... Can't even link from anything into them. Not on block nor hit. Air axe has a weird angle and hitbox. All 3 projectiles are like -20 on block too.
The other variation only has 2 special moves: ice ball and shoulder charge (replaces slide). Shoulder charge does big damage but you're sacrificing sliding under projectiles. Not safe either.

I get easy 30% bnbs midscreen without cold shoulder so that's nice. In the corner I can get like 32% meterless using the 124 KB.

He has 5 KBs: amp slide, 124, d2, back throw with a failed escape, and his overhead string which needs to be a punish/kounter (but it's a 19f starter...) And only does a dmg knockdown not a launcher...

I feel like I'm playing unbreakable again stiffled. But I'll keep trying him see if I can make him work.

 

[Lum@na]

Initial impression:

I'm underwhelmed by sub and his variations. Pokes are bad and has only one mid that's quite useless. His low starter has a short range but safe so at least we have that.

The variation with the projectiles is ehhh. The daggers and the other projectile both have 36f start up... Can't even link from anything into them. Not on block nor hit. Air axe has a weird angle and hitbox. All 3 projectiles are like -20 on block too.
The other variation only has 2 special moves: ice ball and shoulder charge (replaces slide). Shoulder charge does big damage but you're sacrificing sliding under projectiles. Not safe either.

I get easy 30% bnbs midscreen without cold shoulder so that's nice. In the corner I can get like 32% meterless using the 124 KB.

He has 5 KBs: amp slide, 124, d2, back throw with a failed escape, and his overhead string which needs to be a punish/kounter (but it's a 19f starter...) And only does a dmg knockdown not a launcher...

I feel like I'm playing unbreakable again stiffled. But I'll keep trying him see if I can make him work.

One thing that worked in prebeta was using the range on b1, 4 into iceball or b2 into iceball. How's that feeling? To me it seems like sub will struggle to enforce his will on the game but should have great punish

 

[UsedForGlue]

What is archetype of sub-zero? High-risk, high-reward, yolo? Is his mixups both unsafe? What is his best mid and neutral tools at all?

Sub Zero’s arhetype were he was most famous was with a Klone (MK3, UMK3, MK9, MKX) making him occupy 2 places at once, that what people were supposed to respect or fear. You could class that as a trap operator, or a space control character.

In MK11, he isn’t that, and I feel by looking at his tool set, he is an offensive character, that gets in with an easy knockdown slide, destroys mistimed zoning, and all his damage leaves the opponent at a very awkward range that he will excel in.

I’ve thought this since I played at the reveal, and I still think that’s what he will do well in MK11. You will want to get in, and stay there.

Threaten the slide and f4, make them respect deep freeze ice ball, and then close distance.

 

[ogrimtitan]

Sub Zero’s arhetype were he was most famous was with a Klone (MK3, UMK3, MK9, MKX) making him occupy 2 places at once, that what people were supposed to respect or fear. You could class that as a trap operator, or a space control character.

In MK11, he isn’t that, and I feel by looking at his tool set, he is an offensive character, that gets in with an easy knockdown slide, destroys mistimed zoning, and all his damage leaves the opponent at a very awkward range that he will excel in.

I’ve thought this since I played at the reveal, and I still think that’s what he will do well in MK11. You will want to get in, and stay there.

Threaten the slide and f4, make them respect deep freeze ice ball, and then close distance.

How do you threaten with both slide and deep freeze? Doesn't the deep freeze variation trade slide for shoulder?

 

[Samsara]

Whether or no Sub is good is kinda pointless to me right now. Other characters are just looking more interesting. I like trap playstyles so I'll be playing D'vorah mainly. Disappointed with Sub so far but maybe that's why I'm not pro. He night be good depending on how all this dash canceling plays out. We'll see.

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

 

[Braindead]

One thing that worked in prebeta was using the range on b1, 4 into iceball or b2 into iceball. How's that feeling? To me it seems like sub will struggle to enforce his will on the game but should have great punish

B1 has a nice range but it's a 14f high...
B2 ice ball is death on block and has a very low damage output because double heavy scaling. B2 on its own is -2 and 14f, and the range is nothing impressive compared to other mids in this game. You can hit confirm it into something like d4 slide for about 16% damage.

F4 is +4 on block but 28f start up with a giant telegraphing animation which makes it easily interruptible.

I swear it's like unbreakable all over again. You feel this could work but everyone else seems to have so much shit going on and you're here waiting for something to happen to punish it

 

[Braindead]

In case you didn't know punishing KBs changed from the beta and now they only trigger if they're starting the punish so you can't use it in the middle or end of a punish combo, so f24 kb only triggers if you land a punish with it.

It also means you won't have multiple punish KBs in one combo like baraka had in the beta

 

[Lum@na]

B1 has a nice range but it's a 14f high...
B2 ice ball is death on block and has a very low damage output because double heavy scaling. B2 on its own is -2 and 14f, and the range is nothing impressive compared to other mids in this game. You can hit confirm it into something like d4 slide for about 16% damage.

F4 is +4 on block but 28f start up with a giant telegraphing animation which makes it easily interruptible.

I swear it's like unbreakable all over again. You feel this could work but everyone else seems to have so much shit going on and you're here waiting for something to happen to punish it

I mean... I specifically said as a whiff punish, so how are they blocking? You also have a second to see if b2 connects before you need to iceball. I see your point but my question was if they still worked well in that capacity. I don't suggest throwing them out willy nilly

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Pretty disheartening to hear all this, it’s still not even day 1 though. Might just play Cage day 1 :/