Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Sub-Zero needs B12~Clone and F42~Clone to be safe

[coolwhip]

Even SZ players dont understand his own limitations. If you SZ mains are ok losing several match ups 3-7 like the old days then I dont think you know what you are sayng.

What are Sub's 3-7 match-ups?

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Also, while I disagree with TB in this thread, the response "level up bro" is one of the most unfair responses possible. The only reason Sub-Zero is below-tier, is the fact that a gang of you couldn't "level up" and learn to play around Clones or how to punish them, and instead chose to whinge your ass off and cry until SZ got nerfed, before getting any results at all competitively, still hasn't, and likely never will, even with TB at the helm. I don't blame him for downplaying for buffs.

 

[coolwhip]

Tom is becoming a caricature of himself.

 

[Wemfs]

One thing I don't understand for this argument is the fact that b12 is safe vs all the cast except two characters and f42 is already safe against most of the cast.

Even the characters that can punish -7 moves, it's a just frame punish, in which you have to let go of block immediately. If you DO cancel into clone, ex clone, they will contact the clone and get frozen when attempting the just frame punish with their 6f normal. The only characters I know of that punishes both F42 and F42 into clone with the same move is tempest KL EX spin and reptile EX slide.

B12 itself is safe against everything except cassie reversal flipkick and reptile ex slide.

Given the safety of the strings themselves, I don't see why he could possibly *need* the ability to cancel into clone and then also be significantly more safe than that (and prevent many chars from hoping to even retaliate until the subzero makes an error)

It's hard to argue with that logic. Dizzy has a point here.

 

[Yinze]

Every character has a tough match ups. Kenshi is probably his worst. So it's kind of unreasonable to complain about this one instance. He needs some changes, not sure if it's this but something. if we keep buffing people because they have difficult match ups soon they'll have no bad matchups and get nerfed all over again

 

[Tom Brady]

One thing I don't understand for this argument is the fact that b12 is safe vs all the cast except two characters and f42 is already safe against most of the cast.

Even the characters that can punish -7 moves, it's a just frame punish, in which you have to let go of block immediately. If you DO cancel into clone, ex clone, they will contact the clone and get frozen when attempting the just frame punish with their 6f normal. The only characters I know of that punishes both F42 and F42 into clone with the same move is tempest KL EX spin and reptile EX slide.

B12 itself is safe against everything except cassie reversal flipkick and reptile ex slide.

Given the safety of the strings themselves, I don't see why he could possibly *need* the ability to cancel into clone and then also be significantly more safe than that (and prevent many chars from hoping to even retaliate until the subzero makes an error)

The clone doesnt work right. I already proved it has very bad collision. Clone needs better collision or they need to bring it back on block. If both of those are off the table then he needs to be a bit safer.

I take everything posted in here with a grain of salt mainly because most people didnt even want the clone to work properly in the other thread I posted.

 

[kruderf]

I think you're a bit misinformed here, it isn't some godlike tool that sub players aren't taking advantage of for no reason.

That post was a little hyperbolic I admit. Even if it's somewhat situational and not 100% safe it doesn't mean you can't implement it into your corner game. You take a risk, you get 40-50%. As long as you read your opponent it's a viable way to get damage. The 24 shatter combos are consistent against female characters as well if you practice the timing.

 

[nfdsallwd]

i also loved Tom Brady's stream where CDJR said something and he began showing how Kenshi punishes sub zero and screaming "BAIT THIS SHIT, NIQQA, GIT PUNISHED, NIQQA". almost as good as Parking Lot: the Movie.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Maybe there's hope for you yet.

Say what you want about me Salt Shaker, but I never let personal bias cloud my point of view on balancing this game. SZ may be my character, but I'm not onboard for just handing out buffs without good reason. Just like how I feel about Kano

(just prodding bro, not looking for another multi-page argument my man)

 

[coolwhip]

Can't wait for next week's Salt Report.

 

[llabslb]

Is the the bad collision a bug or was it intended from Nether Realm? Don't remember this happening before patches, btw the likelihood of Sub Zero having his B12 and F42 made safe is unlikely because I really think it makes the nerf on his ice clones totally pointless.

 

[rev0lver]

I actually played a character for 2 years that had to set up something similar on the screen and could not do it on block. So I just did it on hit or in open space at points where characters couldn't punish it.

The point is, you can't say the clone doesn't work properly if it's not designed to work that way. It's not like he can't set up ice clones if he can't do them for free on block. His footsie+mixup game is strong enough that maybe he doesn't need the option of ice clone with everything. Maybe he's not supposed to play exactly like mk9 sub. And considering these strings are safe by themselves and don't need to be canceled I don't see what the big problem is.

 

[Rude]

No.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

His footsie+mixup game is strong enough that maybe he doesn't need the option of ice clone with everything. Maybe he's not supposed to play exactly like mk9 sub. And considering these strings are safe by themselves and don't need to be canceled I don't see what the big problem is.

Exactly.

I get it, TB wants our mixups to be 50/50, and our Mid strings to be safe Clone cancel.

But we have so much valid possibility for Hard Knockdown on any string anywhere on the screen, sacrificing 2% at most for it. All other combos end in untechable slide knockdown as well.

If you want that Clone up, you have the tools to put it up.

Sorry, I but I think there should be SOME valid response from our opponent, if they correctly predict the 50/50 they should be able to sensibly punish, and if they block a completely unnecessary midstring, it shouldn't equal free clone. The Clone set up is there if you want it, just end string that allowed the gap close in the first place. with F12. On top of that, most characters take meter to punish a Clone Cancel, some cant punish at all, and only a select few can punish without meter, so maybe against Kenshi you should adapt your gameplay, and not Clone Cancel otherwise safe strings against a character who doesn't even have a proper mix up.

 

[Big Pampering]

If subzero gets fixed you guys will all see how much of toms problems WERE HIS CHARACTERRRR AND HOW MUCH WAS TOMMM CUZ HE IS COMING TO FUCK SHIT UP

 

[Eldriken]

If subzero gets fixed you guys will all see how much of toms problems WERE HIS CHARACTERRRR AND HOW MUCH WAS TOMMM CUZ HE IS COMING TO FUCK SHIT UP

That video makes me lol every single time.

 

[UltraDavid]

Grandmaster Sub has good footsie options, good corner carry, good jumpins, reasonable midscreen meterless damage, very high corner damage, good confirms, good option selects. On top of that he has what is basically a parry except it's faster than Kotal's, works against any ground or jump attack, gives a free combo, and on whiff even creates a wall that still freezes opponents if they touch its back. It can be used safely in pressure strings against many characters, give giant stage in control in many matchups, give giant corner control in most matchups, and make for very damaging corner combos. The ex version even has armor and is safe after strings. That's a lot of good stuff, folks.

I get that the clone doesn't always work how you want it to, but that doesn't mean it has to be changed so that it does. Maybe instead of using it after f42 etc you use it like a faster version of hellfire Scorp's flame aura and bait/punish in footsies and antiairs? The threat of clone is at least as strong as the presence of clone imo. Or maybe it's just a way to get big corner damage? Or maybe you use it in some matchups where it can be really dominant, but go with unbreakable or cryo in others? It really seems to me like there are other ways to use clone that should be tried before any changes are made to it.

 

[Notez4]

And a lot of characters that punish clone on reaction can be baited using EN clone. Like if Quan does Trance or Ermac does Lift and you do an EN Clone, you can block in time and full combo punish.

I came in to say this. I feel like theres options for everything right now. Just use em.

 

[Bobbyxton_]

STOP!! he's fine... he needs ZERO buffs.



"I don't want to be pressured so give me an option that makes players want to back off or be mixed up".

GET OUT OF HERE

Very rich Brady, you've excelled yourself

 

[NB Semi Evil Ryu]

caricature

I had to go to Dictionary.com for this.

Well played.

 

[Phosferrax]

@Tom Brady how can you try to blow up anyone who suggests buffs for their character? What happened to leveling up?

What if you're trying to play this character in a way he wasn't intended? What's wrong with just putting the clone up safely in neutral and stop trying to force these unsafe situations when the character doesn't have to?

 

[MK_Al]

Sorry to interrupt this beautiful conversation, but saying

hit confirm f42 into anything is punishable

is just awesome.

BTW, who is "fine" with safe 50/50s?

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Shit, I'm agreeing with like every post, except one

Grandmaster Sub has good footsie options, good corner carry, good jumpins, reasonable midscreen meterless damage, very high corner damage, good confirms, good option selects. On top of that he has what is basically a parry except it's faster than Kotal's, works against any ground or jump attack, gives a free combo, and on whiff even creates a wall that still freezes opponents if they touch its back. It can be used safely in pressure strings against many characters, give giant stage in control in many matchups, give giant corner control in most matchups, and make for very damaging corner combos. The ex version even has armor and is safe after strings. That's a lot of good stuff, folks.

I get that the clone doesn't always work how you want it to, but that doesn't mean it has to be changed so that it does. Maybe instead of using it after f42 etc you use it like a faster version of hellfire Scorp's flame aura and bait/punish in footsies and antiairs? The threat of clone is at least as strong as the presence of clone imo. Or maybe it's just a way to get big corner damage? Or maybe you use it in some matchups where it can be really dominant, but go with unbreakable or cryo in others? It really seems to me like there are other ways to use clone that should be tried before any changes are made to it.

C'mon son..... If we have absolutely no idea of how sub Zero works, can we just not comment?

I don't mind going in on this ridiculous proposal with logic, but let's make sure we are arguing it logically and have at least some experience in the match up please.

 

[boba_buster]

I call bull on all of this , the real problem was him being nerfed in the first place , he was perfectly balanced on day one.

 

[Tom Brady]

Grandmaster Sub has good footsie options, good corner carry, good jumpins, reasonable midscreen meterless damage, very high corner damage, good confirms, good option selects. On top of that he has what is basically a parry except it's faster than Kotal's, works against any ground or jump attack, gives a free combo, and on whiff even creates a wall that still freezes opponents if they touch its back. It can be used safely in pressure strings against many characters, give giant stage in control in many matchups, give giant corner control in most matchups, and make for very damaging corner combos. The ex version even has armor and is safe after strings. That's a lot of good stuff, folks.

I get that the clone doesn't always work how you want it to, but that doesn't mean it has to be changed so that it does. Maybe instead of using it after f42 etc you use it like a faster version of hellfire Scorp's flame aura and bait/punish in footsies and antiairs? The threat of clone is at least as strong as the presence of clone imo. Or maybe it's just a way to get big corner damage? Or maybe you use it in some matchups where it can be really dominant, but go with unbreakable or cryo in others? It really seems to me like there are other ways to use clone that should be tried before any changes are made to it.

I want the clone to work right which i clearly proved it doesn't in my vids about its collision. You cant have the clone cancels be so unsafe, clone go away on block, etc and still allow people to attack SZ right through the clone.

Clone has several safe guards in place..

1. its blockable
2. has proximity
3. has a cool down after clone is done and additional cool down after clone goes away on its own.
4. Clone goes away on block.

And now to add to all of it, the clone doesnt really freeze you when you touch it? Only a VERY small part at the BACK of the clone where you can also make contact with SZ will actually freeze the opponent.

How do I want the clone to work? I simply like it to freeze you if you touch it. Is that wrong of me? All im saying is that if they dont fix the collision on the clone that maybe something else should be adjusted such as a safer clone cancel.