Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Sub-Zero needs B12~Clone and F42~Clone to be safe

[Bender]

No buffs please.

He is still strong. Clone setups shouldn't be 100% of the focus for this character. He has good mixup, footies, counterzoning, air to air and good normals, even if he's not behind clone 24/7.

 

[Qwark28]

That's not true, without meter these characters can't punish:
Jax
Lao
Sub himself I think
Johnny
Raiden (depending on the clone range)
Erron Black (depending on the clone range)
Sonya
Kano
Goro (maybe with stomp actually?)
Liu
Jason
Reptile
Kitana

Maybe others but i'm not sure. That's a good amount of characters.

And a lot of characters that punish clone on reaction can be baited using EN clone. Like if Quan does Trance or Ermac does Lift and you do an EN Clone, you can block in time and full combo punish.


Just sayin.

Kotal. Sun god and blood god can't punish even with meter.

 

[Salad Petresky]

I think you misunderstand hit confirming.

The string is safe on block, so if you see that it's been blocked then don't cancel it into anything.

If you see it hit, cancel it into ex ice ball.

Everyone already knows that. The frame on block is hideous like -7 or -8 which is pretty bad in a 50/50 world

 

[Map the Soul]

Trust me guys, d1~Trident Rush is not that good, Aquaman is barely top 10.

 

[Phosferrax]

Everyone already knows that. The frame on block is hideous like -7 or -8 which is pretty bad in a 50/50 world

This is bullshit, you've got launching armour and a backdash.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Kotal. Sun god and blood god can't punish even with meter.

can war god punish without meter? I wasn't sure on that.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Again.. you think your best option should be block and eat a SAFE 50/50 or maybe clone and eat a full combo? Maybe if SZ wasnt left at high negative frames and almost everything it would be different.

If we just ran at them and they blocked our 50/50, how is that not fair?


Using your example, if we just closed the gap to Kenshi, opened with B12, a Mid, and he chooses to block (in either direction), is it not ok for him to punish us if we STILL choose to set up a clone off this really easy block confirm, instead of just deciding to block and attempt the 50/50? I mean every other character has to.

I'm just asking, are we that far behind with our fundamentals that this needs to be safe? That we can not only successfully hit a 50/50, but we need to be able to get a free Clone if they predict correctly? I mean, I can't understand why we need our mid, the B12 and F42 openers, both of which have multiple defined uses of their own, to be safe on not just block, but be safe through any attempt to punish a Clone Cancel?

Honestly, this just feels a Braindead #buffSubZero post, (all puns intended, chick the triple entendre). I'm cool with me being wrong, but please explain why instead of just ignorantly saying that "we don't understand". This is my character too. I agree with you on the hitbox fixes for clone on the last thread cause that is ridiculous, but I feel GM doesn't need random ass buffs to give unpunishable clones off Mid hitting strings and I'd love know why I'm wrong

 

[kruderf]

Currently I agree with GGA Dizzy, in stating that Sub-Zero has all the tools that could allow him to be top 5 in the game, at the very minimum he is top 10. Level up man.

Seriously, you can get 50% METERLESS shatter combos and set up the clone again in the corner. It's not 100% safe against all of the cast but it shouldn't be overlooked.

 

[esc1]

So you want to SZ players use Grandmaster like Fisticuffs Cage? Do you really know what a defensive character means?

This thread has nothing to do with defensive play. He's trying to back out of a string for free against every variations. When did pressuring become defensive play.. and the character being considered defensive by you means nothing. It's certainly no justification to buff a high tier. There's a counter for a string into special that was blocked! Boo hoo.. Welcome to how most the rest of the cast has to play.

 

[SoapBar]

Kotal. Sun god and blood god can't punish even with meter.

Sun god and blood god can't punish even with meter.

can't punish even with meter.

even with meter.

:'(

 

[Temp]

Cryomancer seems incredibly solid. I don't get why people aren't using it.

 

[Death]

I'm sorry but saying that every character can punish clone cancel on reaction is ridiculous. I guess I'm missing the memo when I'm playing Rebelo offline days on end every week. I kinda agree with Slips post. Is his other 2 variations that bad.

Still confused about safe 50/50s. Thought we were past that.

Rebelo still plays Sub, He never stopped.

I play him a ton offline and he is slowly leaning on Scorpion as a main.

 

[Qwark28]

can war god punish without meter? I wasn't sure on that.

I need to check, he moves slightly forward when doing the fast sword moves.

 

[BigMilk]

Always thought the clone going away on block was a ridiculous nerf.

Hell, didn't even do that with MK9 sub. lol

True but mk9 sub couldn't throw or shatter clone, didn't have a viable overhead and clone didn't absorb projectiles either.

 

[Dizzy]

One thing I don't understand for this argument is the fact that b12 is safe vs all the cast except two characters and f42 is already safe against most of the cast.

Even the characters that can punish -7 moves, it's a just frame punish, in which you have to let go of block immediately. If you DO cancel into clone, ex clone, they will contact the clone and get frozen when attempting the just frame punish with their 6f normal. The only characters I know of that punishes both F42 and F42 into clone with the same move is tempest KL EX spin and reptile EX slide.

B12 itself is safe against everything except cassie reversal flipkick and reptile ex slide.

Given the safety of the strings themselves, I don't see why he could possibly *need* the ability to cancel into clone and then also be significantly more safe than that (and prevent many chars from hoping to even retaliate until the subzero makes an error)

 

[MadPropz101]

These threads make me cringe lol

 

[zoofs]

Seriously, you can get 50% METERLESS shatter combos and set up the clone again in the corner. It's not 100% safe against all of the cast but it shouldn't be overlooked.

I think you're a bit misinformed here, it isn't some godlike tool that sub players aren't taking advantage of for no reason.

 

[Reauxbot]

Really?

 

[JTB123]

Is the ice clone really irrelevant though? Or is it that people have adapted to day 1 Sub tactics but the SZ players have not adapted? Are they too dependant on ice clone?

Questions...

Dude, you can't actually say that... sheeeeeesh Think of people's feelings

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I'm sorry but saying that every character can punish clone cancel on reaction is ridiculous. I guess I'm missing the memo when I'm playing Rebelo offline days on end every week. I kinda agree with Slips post. Is his other 2 variations that bad.

Still confused about safe 50/50s. Thought we were past that.


I play him a ton offline and he is slowly leaning on Scorpion as a main.

Me too, ironically Scorp feels like the perfect fit for Sub players done with GM's bs. However, I don't think that this is the fix we are looking for.

I think you're a bit misinformed here, it isn't some godlike tool that sub players aren't taking advantage of for no reason.

Exactly, shit is ridiculously situational, position depedant, and only works when you have them in the corner, on no meter, with a clone in front of them. Aka, a "win more" button.

One thing I don't understand for this argument is the fact that b12 is safe vs all the cast except two characters and f42 is already safe against most of the cast.

Even the characters that can punish -7 moves, it's a just frame punish, in which you have to let go of block immediately. If you DO cancel into clone, ex clone, they will contact the clone and get frozen when attempting the just frame punish with their 6f normal. The only characters I know of that punishes both F42 and F42 into clone with the same move is tempest KL EX spin and reptile EX slide.

B12 itself is safe against everything except cassie reversal flipkick and reptile ex slide.

Given the safety of the strings themselves, I don't see why he could possibly *need* the ability to cancel into clone and then also be significantly more safe than that (and prevent many chars from hoping to even retaliate until the subzero makes an error)

I mentioned this, but did you miss the part where he mentioned in response "But then they can throw a 50/50 at you in response".


Yeah well, thats the punish for running up, throwing this shit out, and getting caught on the block. How is that not fair.

 

[LucaTheRipper]

This thread has nothing to do with defensive play. He's trying to back out of a string for free against every variations. When did pressuring become defensive play.. and the character being considered defensive by you means nothing. It's certainly no justification to buff a high tier. There's a counter for a string into special that was blocked! Boo hoo.. Welcome to how most the rest of the cast has to play.

You didn't answered my question and did you saw my other reply to the thread? I don't agree with this thread btw. I just didn't understand what you mean by ''SZ hide behind clone all day.'' Got it?

 

[SaltShaker]

If we just ran at them and they blocked our 50/50, how is that not fair?


Using your example, if we just closed the gap to Kenshi, opened with B12, a Mid, and he chooses to block (in either direction), is it not ok for him to punish us if we STILL choose to set up a clone off this really easy block confirm, instead of just deciding to block and attempt the 50/50? I mean every other character has to.

I'm just asking, are we that far behind with our fundamentals that this needs to be safe? That we can not only successfully hit a 50/50, but we need to be able to get a free Clone if they predict correctly? I mean, I can't understand why we need our mid, the B12 and F42 openers, both of which have multiple defined uses of their own, to be safe on not just block, but be safe through any attempt to punish a Clone Cancel?

Honestly, this just feels a Braindead #buffSubZero post, (all puns intended, chick the triple entendre). I'm cool with me being wrong, but please explain why instead of just ignorantly saying that "we don't understand". This is my character too. I agree with you on the hitbox fixes for clone on the last thread cause that is ridiculous, but I feel GM doesn't need random ass buffs to give unpunishable clones off Mid hitting strings and I'd love know why I'm wrong

Maybe there's hope for you yet.

 

[coolwhip]

And Tom STILL refuses to acknowledge the f4~ice clone option select (unless he brought it up in the video, in which case the demand for F42 clone to be safe is odd). When I brought this up in another thread a while ago, Tom said to "learn the game" and that option selects will be patched out. Well...ahem.

 

[Slips]

One thing I don't understand for this argument is the fact that b12 is safe vs all the cast except two characters and f42 is already safe against most of the cast.

Even the characters that can punish -7 moves, it's a just frame punish, in which you have to let go of block immediately. If you DO cancel into clone, ex clone, they will contact the clone and get frozen when attempting the just frame punish with their 6f normal. The only characters I know of that punishes both F42 and F42 into clone with the same move is tempest KL EX spin and reptile EX slide.

B12 itself is safe against everything except cassie reversal flipkick and reptile ex slide.

Given the safety of the strings themselves, I don't see why he could possibly *need* the ability to cancel into clone and then also be significantly more safe than that (and prevent many chars from hoping to even retaliate until the subzero makes an error)

/thread

 

[Wemfs]

cant wait until sun/blood god kotal has no options

That guy is fucking talented drinking coffee with his foot while contemplating his own existence with his two hands. Impressive.