Match-up Discussion - Grandmaster Sub-Zero MU Notes

[Dankster Morgan]

he said 7-3 all variations, when pretty lady does pretty well against sub. That's why I questioned it

Iv had leatherface listed as 6-4 though

 

[Rolling_Toaster]

no way kotal vs gm is a 6-4.

 

[Revenant Zero]

Do you think kotal loses 7-3 to sub still? even with the new patch with his pizza toss?

Depends on which Kotal; Sun God is a threat if he gets the corner positioning from what I played.
Blood God isn't much; just don't fall for the D1 trap into the standard bnb with crystal totem up.
War God is even now

 

[Rolling_Toaster]

Depends on which Kotal; Sun God is a threat if he gets the corner positioning from what I played.
Blood God isn't much; just don't fall for the D1 trap into the standard bnb with crystal totem up.
War God is even now

war god isnt even. all kotal variations get bodied.

 

[Xxonemanwolfpax]

war god isnt even. all kotal variations get bodied.

Havent seen you in ages boi, wassup

 

[Tanno]

war god isnt even. all kotal variations get bodied.

This I confirm.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Updated

 

[Rolling_Toaster]

Based on what I know after the patch. A lot is different. Sub is better now. I think he is in the top 10, but not top 5 as he has too many counters. But he decimates some characters.

Free as fuck:
Jax
Kotal Kahn
Smoke
Cyrax
Cyber Sub-Zero

Advantage Sub-Zero:
Jason
Kitana
Cassie Cage
Leatherface
Kano
Johnny Cage
Erron Black
Reptile
Sektor

Slight advantage Sub-Zero:
Liu Kang

Mostly even:
Kung Lao
Scorpion
Sub-Zero
Jacqui
Bo Rai Cho
Quan
Goro

Slight disadvantage Sub-Zero:
Tanya
Shinnok
Ferra/Torr

Disadvantage Sub-Zero:
Alien
Kenshi
Kung Jin
Predator
Raiden

Drink bleach:
Sonya
Mileena
Takeda
Ermac
D'Vorah
Tremor

Winning: 15
Even: 7
Losing: 14

no

 

[Dankster Morgan]

no

Which part doe

 

[Tweedy]

Semiiij, Foreverking, Gunshow, and whoever else I asked at NEC, swore up and down that Sub Zero now beats Mileena.

Besides Foxy. He still thinks Mileena wins.

The opinions on this match up seem to vary so greatly. Why?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I could see it moving out of bleach drink tier but I think a lot of the things that made it bad pre patch are still in tact but I'd really like to hear what they have to say. The B12 post block game is a million times better now that Sub can poke back, B1 being high obviously helps but he could always D4 under it.

 

[Tweedy]

Btw Dragon thinks Kitana wins and he bullied all Subs at NEC.

Dragon might just be the better player but idk. Dat ass.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

He still armor breaks her in the corner and her blowing up clone cancels leads to less reward now

 

[Rolling_Toaster]

Which part doe

csz isnt THAT free.

kitana is very even.

liu is very even also.

sub loses to shotgun and full auto slightly.

i think dn tanya beats sub slightly but if youre talking about pyro or kobu sub beats her 6-4. sub vs all shinnok is 5-5.

predator jin and raiden are 5-5 and sub beats alien VERY badly. move kenshi to drink bleach also pls.

demo sonya is only slight adv to her imo. tremor is 5-5 ive always thought ermac is slight adv too. dvorah is even and sub beats mileena.

btw im assuming adv is like 7-3 6-4 and slight adv is like 5.5-4.5

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Btw Dragon thinks Kitana wins and he bullied all Subs at NEC.

Dragon might just be the better player but idk. Dat ass.

I think Dragon is probably the better player. The ass is good tho. It's kind of a mindfuck which is why I kept this "chart" pretty lowkey and avoided using numbers

 

[Dankster Morgan]

csz isnt THAT free.

kitana is very even.

liu is very even also.

sub loses to shotgun and full auto slightly.

i think dn tanya beats sub slightly but if youre talking about pyro or kobu sub beats her 6-4. sub vs all shinnok is 5-5.

predator jin and raiden are 5-5 and sub beats alien VERY badly. move kenshi to drink bleach also pls.

demo sonya is only slight adv to her imo. tremor is 5-5 ive always thought ermac is slight adv too. dvorah is even and sub beats mileena.

btw im assuming adv is like 7-3 6-4 and slight adv is like 5.5-4.5

I could see kitana
I only had Liu at slight adv
I thought I had Jacqui in losing my bad
Ya I was talking Naginata
Why doesn't he lose to HQT, Shaolin, or D'Vorah?

I avoided numbers because I haven't had enough time with the new MKXL to comfortably do so.

 

[Tweedy]

Wasn't Tom talking about how Sub beats Jacqui free? Did you explore your options with him? @Rolling_Toaster

And yeah Alien loses 6-4 imo.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I have him losing to Tremor because Aftershock totally controls the pace with ia quake and blows up any klone attempt. Crystalline outzones Sub if he gets flex up. Maybe I'm missing something?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

To be clear anything in the "slight" categories could move up or down, I'm very open to suggestions on the. On the free af or drink bleach categories I'd definitely like an explaination before I move. Not because I'm cocky and think I'm 100% right but because I want to actually learn.

 

[Tanno]

Based on what I know after the patch. A lot is different. Sub is better now. I think he is in the top 10, but not top 5 as he has too many counters. But he decimates some characters.

Free as fuck:
Jax
Kotal Kahn
Smoke
Cyrax
Cyber Sub-Zero

Advantage Sub-Zero:
Alien
Jason
Cassie Cage
Leatherface
Kano
Johnny Cage
Erron Black
Reptile
Sektor

Slight advantage Sub-Zero:
Liu Kang

Mostly even:
Kung Lao
Kitana
Scorpion
Sub-Zero
Bo Rai Cho
Quan
Goro

Slight disadvantage Sub-Zero:
Tanya
Shinnok
Ferra/Torr
Jacqui

Disadvantage Sub-Zero:
Alien
Kenshi
Kung Jin
Predator
Raiden

Drink bleach:
Sonya
Mileena
Takeda
Ermac
D'Vorah
Tremor

Winning: 15
Even: 7
Losing: 14

Mileena after the patch is in Slight Disadvantage list. The reason would be to look out for her tele kick and YOLO roll. I don't have much experience for Ethereal (Kingsglaive variation. lol). With good reading and much patience she's doable to be beaten.

Bo' Rai Cho is Disadvantageous Sub Zero. Why? Dragon Breath and Bartitsu fuck him, however, he gets raped only in Drunken Master. Bartitsu is a weapon variation that his poke with the bartitsu has the same advantage like Alien's pre-patch Tail Snag passing through Ice Klone.

Kitana is Advantageous Sub Zero, because she has a lot of openings to be punished. Only Mournful variation can beat him.

Goro is Free as Fuck. You only need to stay in defense. Ice Klone, and stay close to Ice Klone to force him doing the Stomp. Ice Klone will freeze him spot on. And stay away from him, so that you won't get pummeled by his fist fury. Goro is mostly a slow CQC fella.

Liu Kang is Mostly Even. His Dualist and Flame Fist are a pain in the ass, but if you set up IK, Liu will be most likely suppressed from getting close on you. His only strongest point would be his switching between the flame and the blood orbs, keeping the pressure on.

Kung Lao is Disadvantageous Sub Zero. The reasons are too obvious. As of the last patch, he became much faster, and his hat is like a weapon to reckon. He has an arsenal of moves that you need to look out.

Kung Jin is Mostly Even. Ancestral variation has the slight advantage, because of his bolts going and coming back. He's mostly beatable, if you keep your distance.

 

[Youphemism]

Can confirm Shotgun beats Sub. I also think Ermac beats Sub but I want to hear your take on that matchup @Rolling_Toaster

Ancestral variation has the slight advantage, because of his bolts going and coming back. He's mostly beatable, if you keep your distance.

Eh??? Ancestral doesn't have bolts nor anything that goes and comes back, you're either thinking of Shaolin and his Chakram or you have a really weird idea of what Ancestral is lol

 

[Tanno]

Can confirm Shotgun beats Sub. I also think Ermac beats Sub but I want to hear your take on that matchup @Rolling_Toaster

Eh??? Ancestral doesn't have bolts nor anything that goes and comes back, you're either thinking of Shaolin and his Chakram or you have a really weird idea of what Ancestral is lol

My mistake. If it's Shaolin with that Chakram, then it is. lol

I know for sure that Bojutsu gets pummeled.

BTW, Ermac still beats Sub with that mid-air trolling.

 

[Rolling_Toaster]

Wasn't Tom talking about how Sub beats Jacqui free? Did you explore your options with him? @Rolling_Toaster

yeah but i still think he loses. madzin full auto and i all agree she beats him.

Why doesn't he lose to HQT, Shaolin, or D'Vorah?

if sub gets hqt in the corner hes dead. sub also gets a full combo punish on d4 disc (all ranges). just gotta play patient and work your way in.
ive never thought the shaolin mu was AS bad as people said it was last patch but the db1 buff for sub and the nerfs to jin made it 5-5. also i take back what i said about dvorah i dont think its really drink bleach worthy but its in her favor for sure 6-4 imo.

 

[Rolling_Toaster]

also tanno is the goat sub zero everyone should listen to him he should be mod.

 

[Tanno]

yeah but i still think he loses. madzin full auto and i all agree she beats him.

if sub gets hqt in the corner hes dead. sub also gets a full combo punish on d4 disc (all ranges). just gotta play patient and work your way in.
ive never thought the shaolin mu was AS bad as people said it was last patch but the db1 buff for sub and the nerfs to jin made it 5-5. also i take back what i said about dvorah i dont think its really drink bleach worthy but its in her favor for sure 6-4 imo.

Sorry, but why do you think she can beat Sub 6-4? Thanks to her lack of hurtboxes, I would assume that she beats him 8-2. If she had that Alien fix, she would surely be 6-4.