Menu
By:
Filters
What's new

Match-up Discussion - Grandmaster Sub-Zero MU Notes

Tweedy

Tweedy

Noob
Why does Shirai Ryu win 7-3? He can't punish B2 or frost bomb can he?

I know he has ways out of the corner, but isn't everything a read? Like if he does B11 after a klone cancel, you can backdash and whiff punish? Or if he does air teleport when in the corner, you can standing 1 or hit him as he's trying to jump. I don't believe he has any sure ways of punishing klone cancels and escaping the corner?

If that's the case, along with Shirai Ryu having issues with punishing B2 and frost bomb, I think it's probably 6-4. I'm not sure if Brady's famous sets vs Raptor are being weighed. Raptor does that to everyone. Brady lost 30-4 yesterday to Khaotic Blaze who plays Scorpion. Players beat players.

I agree with Lasher, though. D+F1 among other things is a big deal in the MU.

Edit: I also agree with Kotal and Alien, although Alien could end up being 7-3.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Tweedy said:
Why does Shirai Ryu win 7-3? He can't punish B2 or frost bomb can he?

I know he has ways out of the corner, but isn't everything a read? Like if he does B11 after a klone cancel, you can backdash and whiff punish? Or if he does air teleport when in the corner, you can standing 1 or hit him as he's trying to jump. I don't believe he has any sure ways of punishing klone cancels and escaping the corner?

If that's the case, along with Shirai Ryu having issues with punishing B2 and frost bomb, I think it's probably 6-4. I'm not sure if Brady's famous sets vs Raptor are being weighed. Raptor does that to everyone. Brady lost 30-4 yesterday to Khaotic Blaze who plays Scorpion. Players beat players.

I agree with Lasher, though. D+F1 among other things is a big deal in the MU.

Edit: I also agree with Kotal and Alien, although Alien could end up being 7-3.
Click to expand...
He can use spear to punish B12, F42, F33, 24(not that this string matters) and 123 into Klone. B33, 11, F4, B1, and 12 are safe. No, he cannot punish B2 and Frost Bomb. It is certainly his turn after blocking any of these however. If we don't have meter we need to hold his pressure (9 frame poke boyz). And no lol he can't wake up in the corner at all.

All of this would be very problematic for Takeda if he didn't have a plethora of ways to nuke the ice Klone anywhere else on screen. Kunai goes straight through the Klone, forcing him to block. He can't use Klone to give him an ice ball or anything like that because of kunai, and teleport shuts down the ice ball as well, so building meter is a problem since you can't Klone and can't ice ball in the neutral. The way to incorporate ice ball is to hopefully trade with a kunai. And of course B2, B1, and standing 2 are the bane your existence here.

I bounced back and forth about wether it is 6-4 or 7-3 for a bit, but I felt the only place that SZ is comfortable against SR Takeda is when he has him in the corner(duh lol). To me the difference between this matchup and one of SZ's 4-6s like Tremor is that you can fight him anywhere still, even if it is awkward. He doesn't brutalize you so badly that several of your options are outright gone. It feels really constricting in that way, so that's why imo it is a 3-7.
 
rubmytaco

rubmytaco

CarriedByClone
Youphemism said:
@IrishMantis what do you think?
Click to expand...
I think I speak for Irish and myself when I say Stunt Double wins the match up. I've played countless games against Irish and he usually comes out on top when he does what he's supposed to. As sub you cannot use your ice clone at all, because it means that SD gets to do the same as well (even in neutral) and get pressure or a punish. The corner is what it is, but cage does have options.
 
rubmytaco

rubmytaco

CarriedByClone
Dankster Morgan said:
He can use spear to punish B12, F42, F33, 24(not that this string matters) and 123 into Klone. B33, 11, F4, B1, and 12 are safe. No, he cannot punish B2 and Frost Bomb. It is certainly his turn after blocking any of these however. If we don't have meter we need to hold his pressure (9 frame poke boyz). And no lol he can't wake up in the corner at all.

All of this would be very problematic for Takeda if he didn't have a plethora of ways to nuke the ice Klone anywhere else on screen. Kunai goes straight through the Klone, forcing him to block. He can't use Klone to give him an ice ball or anything like that because of kunai, and teleport shuts down the ice ball as well, so building meter is a problem since you can't Klone and can't ice ball in the neutral. The way to incorporate ice ball is to hopefully trade with a kunai. And of course B2, B1, and standing 2 are the bane your existence here.

I bounced back and forth about wether it is 6-4 or 7-3 for a bit, but I felt the only place that SZ is comfortable against SR Takeda is when he has him in the corner(duh lol). To me the difference between this matchup and one of SZ's 4-6s like Tremor is that you can fight him anywhere still, even if it is awkward. He doesn't brutalize you so badly that several of your options are outright gone. It feels really constricting in that way, so that's why imo it is a 3-7.
Click to expand...
The corner doesn't even matter to Takeda... One blocked attack and he gets to air flipkick out ;)
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
rubmytaco said:
The corner doesn't even matter to Takeda... One blocked attack and he gets to air flipkick out ;)
Click to expand...
That's what is thought. Do you think 7-3 is accurate?

Edit: after a blocked b2, jump back 3 will catch him doing the air flip kick reversal and keep him down. Unless he does EX which is less consistent for SZ. And he has to guess right to begin with. But still...
 
Last edited:
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
rubmytaco said:
I think I speak for Irish and myself when I say Stunt Double wins the match up. I've played countless games against Irish and he usually comes out on top when he does what he's supposed to. As sub you cannot use your ice clone at all, because it means that SD gets to do the same as well (even in neutral) and get pressure or a punish. The corner is what it is, but cage does have options.
Click to expand...
It would be really foolish of me not to take what you guys say into account. I can agree to that for these reasons.

1. Cage can call mimics on reaction to a clone.
2. Once they both have their clones, since Cage's have no hurt box, they go through it and it goes away. Not to mention he's now plus a billion and if you were in F3 range GGS.

That being said its not in the same league as D'Vorah and whatnot. pretty honest MU from both ends and both players will need to be on point.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
What do you guys think about Imposter Shinnok? And what can you guys tell me about Leatherface, Bo Rai Cho, and Dragon Naginata Tanya?
 
rubmytaco

rubmytaco

CarriedByClone
Dankster Morgan said:
What do you guys think about Imposter Shinnok? And what can you guys tell me about Leatherface, Bo Rai Cho, and Dragon Naginata Tanya?
Click to expand...
Imposter does have to work, but he's another character that takes away ice ball because of instant air teleport. For some reason, I find it very difficult to consistently punish that move in general with sub.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
rubmytaco said:
Imposter does have to work, but he's another character that takes away ice ball because of instant air teleport. For some reason, I find it very difficult to consistently punish that move in general with sub.
Click to expand...
The best Iv been able to do with tele is press stand 1 the second you see the pink mist appear on the other side of SZ. It feels pretty consistent.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Zerodegreez said:
Thanks for this.

I've been looking for an Updated Match Ups for Grandmaster for quite some time now. I also understand the struggle.

I'm making the transition from a Casual Player who has basically only fought AI over the course of MK History to a Competitive Online and Offline Player and realising how much work I need in my game to Hold my Own VS Real People. I've had to relearn fighting game mechanics all over again, pay more attention to frame data, recoveries etc...and even re learn my inputs to be as clean as possible. Consistency is my aim so I'm getting there. I'd say being a Character loyalist to Grandmaster isn't helping my win losses with my lack of real fighting experience but I am learning Match Ups in depth at least and have played most match ups you've listed.

I will say, Inferno Scorpion is a Massive Pain due to the leg Minion Grab going into a full kombo, you need to be aware of it at all times, hell, I'd say it's either 5:5 or 4:6 Inferno's Favour. Mournful Kitana can be difficult if she zones full screen (I've since learnt You don't want to be full screen with GM Ever!) but I'm finding strategies to get closer with the clone and bait her into it or an ice ball. Every other Match Up I 100% agree. I'm yet to play a high level Alien, Kung Jins can be a pain, High Level HQT Predators I can get wrecked very easily and I've played Pro Level Swarm Queens, Ronin & Shi Rai Ryu Takedas and Piercings here in Oz where I got wrecked every time. Smoke used to give me trouble but now I'd say it's about even 5:5:. Ermacs are also difficult where I'm still to figure out the match up. I played a few games with an Aftershock the other day and had difficulty with how many options Tremor has. Again my experience definitely contributes to losing these match ups but I have noticed how Grandmaster can be at quite a disadvantage simply because of the other character.

I probably should pick up another character but I just don't want to. I've worked on Scorpion as an equal main but I just don't flow with him like Grandmaster so I guess I'll just have to be a Grandmaster Loyalist here in Oz and keep grinding and growing and find ways to make him work.
Click to expand...
That's a lot of text, so I'll try to answer everything I can.
1. We win inferno. Go lab him and pay attention to what Scorpion does on his startups on minions, because they are very reactable and very punishable. It's hard in a bad connection but don't let it taint your opinion on what he does in good connection or better yet offline.
2. Zoners like Kitana will became easier with time. It's just different, but I don't think it's worse.
3. Smoke is free. He has no options in the corner at all.

Also what pro D'Vorahs are you playing? None of the D'Vorahs on here give me games, even when I made a thread about it.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I don't think it's ego, most of them seem really cool but they are on ps4. And that's cool I hope you guys do get ESL.

And I'm serious about smoke, he can't phase through the Klone. When he is in the corner he can't do hardly anything.
 
Z

Zerodegreez

Deleted
Thanks. yeah I hope we get it, be great for the Fighting Game Community here. I'd love to be able to be a part of it but I need to get rid off all my holes first. That's good about the ego thing. I guess that's a misunderstanding from my part.

Yeah, I agree with Smoke. He was hard at the start when I was doing dumb Clone shit Mid Screen that works vs AI but now Vs Actual People Once I get Smoke in the Corner I'm good. My lack of Real Fighting game experience probably contributes to the 5:5 Vs Smoke but I look forward to taking the lead as I fix my holes.
 
Wigy

Wigy

There it is...
Sub is advantage vs a-list and fisticuffs

SD i think is 5-5.

He has options vs sub in this variation but its not like he can full combo punish with CSK and most of his game is reliant on clones and they arent easy to get up.

Subzeros d4 gives jc issues also.

My 2 cents.
 
TyCarter35

TyCarter35

Bonafide Jax scrub
Agree with ninjutsu for the most part though thinges could be in Scorpion's favor slightly but not enough to be called 6-4, Sub can't just throw out the clone as disjointed swords can go through and can't try to zone ninjutsu out as iceball is painfully slow and can be reaction tp though u can try to bait the sword out and whiff punish. However if sub gets Scorpion to the corner, then Scorpion doesn't have many options and done for as his armor sucks balls though Scorpion has better normals and can force Sub to respect the swords and pokes for the most part. It honestly comes down to who wins the neutral though Scorps only has a tiny edge in the neutral. 5.5-4.5 potentially
 
God Confirm

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
i wish you lived in my country so i could play SZ vs you as Pred because that number is ridiculous tilted in the wrong direction. 3-7, sheesh. That's on par with the worst match up in the game, when its far from it.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
God Confirm said:
i wish you lived in my country so i could play SZ vs you as Pred because that number is ridiculous tilted in the wrong direction. 3-7, sheesh. That's on par with the worst match up in the game, when its far from it.
Click to expand...
I'm not a Predator main. What would that prove? I changed it back to 4-6 because Predator is Deadator in the corner. Predator easily has the advantage in the neutral which is why he wins.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.