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Match-up Discussion - Grandmaster Sub-Zero MU Notes

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Non bart:

F1 gets low profiled by all subs pokes (even d1 i think)
Bo rai cho HAS to come in, he cannot do anything at all from outside jip range.
dealing with clone:
Bo rai cho's only answer to clone is ex belly, tumble kicks have horrible active frames with armour, stomp is megggaaa risky. Likihood with ex belly is you've just chased sub into corner and if you use it you'll put yourself in.
To contest the ice clone up close aside from armour, you'd have to use his slow as fuck floor flames or flame breath (15frame i think, high with bad recovery).
Nothing to stop him hammering d4 behind clone as you're effectively untouchable (ex belly will whiff)

Legitimately nothing good about that matchup even vaguely.

Bo rai chos d4 is probably one of the worst pokes in the game on whiff, only way he can constest sub in the range game, easily punished with subs f4 and if you d4 just as the person jumps its an easy punish (yes it is that slow to recover)

Bartitsu:

Saving grace is being able to punish ice clones on block. b1 is great for this matchup. f1 is a more of check string. If you have a clone out and read it you can easily jump over it or duck and poke. It only stops you just mindlessly throwing out clones in the neutral and doiny whatever you want after.

Good tool but sub still guna dominate neutral.

D4 is great, but if you whiff when they jump its a full punish like his other variations. Risk reward isnt brilliant.

Before you say 'all pokes are punishable on whiff' honestly take bo rai chos d4 into practice you'll see how horrible it is on whiff.

In the corner bartitsu's only reliable armour for that situation launches them full screen where sub can just lame you out again.

Bo and bartisu in general have unsafe gaps all over the place, if subs were using ex slide intelligently in this matchup (which im yet to see) bo rai cho would barely get out the corner.

Tl/dr.

Sub low profiles everything and totally dominates the neutral on non bartisu variations.

Bartisu's wakeups vs sub are garbage

Bo has no way of getting in on sub and can get full punished for using his only ranged move.

Bo rai chos has ways around the clone in all variations but the risk reward is always bad.

Sub can abuse the fuck out of bo rai chos gaps.

Cherry on the cake: bo cannot punish b2.
I agree with most of that, but Bartitsu does punish B2 so I think it makes it even.

Edit: lol I replied before I read the @Youphemism post excuse me haha
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Yeah Sub players are off their rocker when they act like getting around unsafe klone cancels = bad match up.
Well obviously you're a maniac if you think unsafe klone cancels = losing, it just doesn't always mean winning. But honesty with the removal of armored launchers and db1 buffs the "unsafe" klone cancels are a lot less of an issue for Sub than pre October.
 

Wigy

There it is...
Well obviously you're a maniac if you think unsafe klone cancels = losing, it just doesn't always mean winning. But honesty with the removal of armored launchers and db1 buffs the "unsafe" klone cancels are a lot less of an issue for Sub than pre October.
Ive seen 7-3 and 8-2 thrown around by sub players for so many matchups.

You might be sensible but the sub community isnt