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Match-up Discussion - Grandmaster Sub-Zero MU Notes

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
Okay so this is going to sound weird since i'm in a constant state of yelling about how mad I am that Leatherface is bad but...i think this MU is 5-5.
 

Revenant Zero

Death Comes
Premium Supporter
Okay so this is going to sound weird since i'm in a constant state of yelling about how mad I am that Leatherface is bad but...i think this MU is 5-5.
Depends on the variation of LF you use against Sub and vice versa. but my clan says Sub destroys LF; at least in the case of Butcher and Killer.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
I'm curious why you think that
Okay so in the corner it's basically a wrap if LF doesn't have bar (but what matchup isn't like that eh?) however in the neutral Leatherface has multiple ways to check clone (cuz he's got a big dumb chainsaw) Butcher can DB3 through the clone (go into the lab and look at the hitbox on that move, it's DUMB) He's got his sweep, he's got B2 in Killer/Pretty Lady. He's got D4. Basically the fact that he has more options for the clone than, well a large portion of the cast, and actually decent-ish armor, makes me not worry all THAT much in the neutral and only worry when I have no bar in the corner.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Okay so in the corner it's basically a wrap if LF doesn't have bar (but what matchup isn't like that eh?) however in the neutral Leatherface has multiple ways to check clone (cuz he's got a big dumb chainsaw) Butcher can DB3 through the clone (go into the lab and look at the hitbox on that move, it's DUMB) He's got his sweep, he's got B2 in Killer/Pretty Lady. He's got D4. Basically the fact that he has more options for the clone than, well a large portion of the cast, and actually decent-ish armor, makes me not worry all THAT much in the neutral and only worry when I have no bar in the corner.
Good points, that's why Iv always thought Grandmaster vs Leatherface being considered by some a 7-3 was insane.

Anyhow everything you've said is correct but i think Sub doesn't need to fully rely on the klone midscreen. The buffs to ice burst and D1, along with his broke af jump ins, a 50/50, and a low profiling D4 to exploit Leatherface's lack of mids. I don't think he needs the klone to beat him midscreen, and like you said the corner is party city which is why I think it's 6-4.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
Good points, that's why Iv always thought Grandmaster vs Leatherface being considered by some a 7-3 was insane.

Anyhow everything you've said is correct but i think Sub doesn't need to fully rely on the klone midscreen. The buffs to ice burst and D1, along with his broke af jump ins, a 50/50, and a low profiling D4 to exploit Leatherface's lack of mids. I don't think he needs the klone to beat him midscreen, and like you said the corner is party city which is why I think it's 6-4.
Good points all around. Glad I can talk about MU's without some ridiculous claim being made. Which has 100% totally not all happened in this thread whatsoever...not...at...all...
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
GM against Leatherface is pretty much in SZ's favor. The only variation that fucks SZ is Pretty Lady, where he keeps zoning. With the right tools SZ fucks the other LF variations.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
GM against Leatherface is pretty much in SZ's favor. The only variation that fucks SZ is Pretty Lady, where he keeps zoning. With the right tools SZ fucks the other LF variations.
Tell me exactly how Pretty Lady's zoning fucks Sub Zero when he has Ice Clone, Slide, Ice Ball and EX Ice ball.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Tell me exactly how Pretty Lady's zoning fucks Sub Zero when he has Ice Clone, Slide, Ice Ball and EX Ice ball.
Pretty Lady is mostly a zoner. All the guy who mains him needs to do is to avoid SZ, while jumping backwards and keeping zoning him. His chainsaw is a MID projectile, unlike SZ's Iceball, Jacqui's and Cassie's guns being HIGH projectiles. SZ would need to low block to prevent being hit from PL. Unlike the other variations, he can do the diagonal zoning (similar to Mournful Kitana's) at the right timing. This zoning game fucks Ice Klone. The only strategy to beat him would be either the timed Iceball or the slide, or to keep him in the corner at the first chance. The Jumping backwards is what prevents the slide to hit him due of the camera being full monitor distance, which would make it a gamble. Same goes for the timed Iceball. :/
 

Poser Paul

#1 Unbreakable
Pretty Lady is mostly a zoner. All the guy who mains him needs to do is to avoid SZ, while jumping backwards and keeping zoning him. His chainsaw is a MID projectile, unlike SZ's Iceball, Jacqui's and Cassie's guns being HIGH projectiles. SZ would need to low block to prevent being hit from PL. Unlike the other variations, he can do the diagonal zoning (similar to Mournful Kitana's) at the right timing. This zoning game fucks Ice Klone. The only strategy to beat him would be either the timed Iceball or the slide, or to keep him in the corner at the first chance. The Jumping backwards is what prevents the slide to hit him due of the camera being full monitor distance, which would make it a gamble. Same goes for the timed Iceball. :/
Unbreakable ftw
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
Pretty Lady is mostly a zoner. All the guy who mains him needs to do is to avoid SZ, while jumping backwards and keeping zoning him. His chainsaw is a MID projectile, unlike SZ's Iceball, Jacqui's and Cassie's guns being HIGH projectiles. SZ would need to low block to prevent being hit from PL. Unlike the other variations, he can do the diagonal zoning (similar to Mournful Kitana's) at the right timing. This zoning game fucks Ice Klone. The only strategy to beat him would be either the timed Iceball or the slide, or to keep him in the corner at the first chance. The Jumping backwards is what prevents the slide to hit him due of the camera being full monitor distance, which would make it a gamble. Same goes for the timed Iceball. :/
First, standing saw is a HIGH, not a mid. Instant air DB3 has so much recovery on it that as long as you're not getting hit by it, this is a non issue. In fact, the recovery on every single chainsaw is ABYSMALLY bad. You literally only need to make one chainsaw whiff to get in as GM sub. Not to mention you slide under one high chainsaw and you just got in for free. Additionally ice ball will win literally every. Single. Trade. Due to the aforementioned shitty recovery on the chainsaw throws. ON TOP OF THAT. EX Ice ball will completely eat up PL's projectile and get PL tagged by said ice ball because, again, chainsaw recovery is a bunch of asses. Not only do I not agree in any way that Pretty Lady fucks over GM but I also am telling you that it is the WORST Leatherface variation you could pick to fight GM.
 
I know this post is a few weeks old but that info about Spectral is false. There are plenty of blockstrings into the Soul Ascension attacks that cannot be interrupted without armour, and even the ones that do, you still have to respect Spectral's option to counterpoke with EX soul charge.

In all honesty Spectral/MOS still isn't much better for GM. The main disadvantage compared to Mystic on paper is that they have to use EX Lift rather than meterless to combo from it. But even then since they already do so much damage meterless and rarely have to spend meter on anything else they usually have enough spare meter to fully punish unsafe clone blockstrings anyway.
not all strings into the lift work, you can low profile it hard and punish, i didnt mean to say all of the strings
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
not all strings into the lift work, you can low profile it hard and punish, i didnt mean to say all of the strings
I didn't say all of the strings either lol. If by low profiling you mean with slide that in itself may whiff and send Sub full screen, which just resets the neutral.

First, standing saw is a HIGH, not a mid. Instant air DB3 has so much recovery on it that as long as you're not getting hit by it, this is a non issue. In fact, the recovery on every single chainsaw is ABYSMALLY bad. You literally only need to make one chainsaw whiff to get in as GM sub. Not to mention you slide under one high chainsaw and you just got in for free. Additionally ice ball will win literally every. Single. Trade. Due to the aforementioned shitty recovery on the chainsaw throws. ON TOP OF THAT. EX Ice ball will completely eat up PL's projectile and get PL tagged by said ice ball because, again, chainsaw recovery is a bunch of asses. Not only do I not agree in any way that Pretty Lady fucks over GM but I also am telling you that it is the WORST Leatherface variation you could pick to fight GM.
I don't know how the Sub/LF matchup goes but what's your idea of a projectile with good recovery exactly? Cause I just tested IA DB3 and Sub's reversal slide doesn't even punish it point blank...
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
I didn't say all of the strings either lol. If by low profiling you mean with slide that in itself may whiff and send Sub full screen, which just resets the neutral.


I don't know how the Sub/LF matchup goes but what's your idea of a projectile with good recovery exactly? Cause I just tested IA DB3 and Sub's reversal slide doesn't even punish it point blank...
Well fuck me then. I'll take that blow up. Everything else I said is accurate tho. STRYKIE always there to keep my sometimes dumb ass in check, appreciated.
 

Wigy

There it is...
All of this 'the second i cant use my clone as a mindless counter to everything a character has' its a tough matchup mentality is nuts.

Bo rai cho looses 6-4 even on bartitsu.

I can sit here and explain why but all i'll get back is 'huurrr durrr he has a move which can go through clone hurrr durrr i might as well play variationless'
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
All of this 'the second i cant use my clone as a mindless counter to everything a character has' its a tough matchup mentality is nuts.

Bo rai cho looses 6-4 even on bartitsu.

I can sit here and explain why but all i'll get back is 'huurrr durrr he has a move which can go through clone hurrr durrr i might as well play variationless'
Not all of us think that way you're more than welcome to explain, I think Bartitsu is even
 

Wigy

There it is...
Not all of us think that way you're more than welcome to explain, I think Bartitsu is even
Non bart:

F1 gets low profiled by all subs pokes (even d1 i think)
Bo rai cho HAS to come in, he cannot do anything at all from outside jip range.
dealing with clone:
Bo rai cho's only answer to clone is ex belly, tumble kicks have horrible active frames with armour, stomp is megggaaa risky. Likihood with ex belly is you've just chased sub into corner and if you use it you'll put yourself in.
To contest the ice clone up close aside from armour, you'd have to use his slow as fuck floor flames or flame breath (15frame i think, high with bad recovery).
Nothing to stop him hammering d4 behind clone as you're effectively untouchable (ex belly will whiff)

Legitimately nothing good about that matchup even vaguely.

Bo rai chos d4 is probably one of the worst pokes in the game on whiff, only way he can constest sub in the range game, easily punished with subs f4 and if you d4 just as the person jumps its an easy punish (yes it is that slow to recover)

Bartitsu:

Saving grace is being able to punish ice clones on block. b1 is great for this matchup. f1 is a more of check string. If you have a clone out and read it you can easily jump over it or duck and poke. It only stops you just mindlessly throwing out clones in the neutral and doiny whatever you want after.

Good tool but sub still guna dominate neutral.

D4 is great, but if you whiff when they jump its a full punish like his other variations. Risk reward isnt brilliant.

Before you say 'all pokes are punishable on whiff' honestly take bo rai chos d4 into practice you'll see how horrible it is on whiff.

In the corner bartitsu's only reliable armour for that situation launches them full screen where sub can just lame you out again.

Bo and bartisu in general have unsafe gaps all over the place, if subs were using ex slide intelligently in this matchup (which im yet to see) bo rai cho would barely get out the corner.

Tl/dr.

Sub low profiles everything and totally dominates the neutral on non bartisu variations.

Bartisu's wakeups vs sub are garbage

Bo has no way of getting in on sub and can get full punished for using his only ranged move.

Bo rai chos has ways around the clone in all variations but the risk reward is always bad.

Sub can abuse the fuck out of bo rai chos gaps.

Cherry on the cake: bo cannot punish b2.
 
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Wigy

There it is...
Hmmmmm not true for Bartitsu, he gets a free F1 punish every time.
Oh right yeah totally skipped my mind.

You can belly them as a punish on the other variations. totally not ideal getting a 10% on a combo starting overhead if you're really on point.

Whats your bartistu mu number vs sub?
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Oh right yeah totally skipped my mind.

You can belly them as a punish on the other variations. totally not ideal getting a 10% on a combo starting overhead if you're really on point.

Whats your bartistu mu number vs sub?
Just thinking about the punishes, he has:
Bartitsu: F1 (don't really need anything else since F1 does anything you need it to as a punish)
Dragon Breath: BF4/BF4ex
Drunken Master: DF2/DF2ex, BF4/BF4ex
(while drunk): BF3/BF3ex

He has some other stuff that punishes B2 but only when you're cornered.

I feel Bartitsu vs Sub is either 5-5 or Sub favour. Both have insane corner games and neither can get up when they get knocked down but it's a fight for the neutral until one's in the corner. Sub is a bit less meter reliant than Bartitsu though which is why I think if it's not even it could be Sub's favour. However it might just be 5-5 because I have that secret corner tech ;)
 

Wigy

There it is...
Just thinking about the punishes, he has:
Bartitsu: F1 (don't really need anything else since F1 does anything you need it to as a punish)
Dragon Breath: BF4/BF4ex
Drunken Master: DF2/DF2ex, BF4/BF4ex
(while drunk): BF3/BF3ex

He has some other stuff that punishes B2 but only when you're cornered.

I feel Bartitsu vs Sub is either 5-5 or Sub favour. Both have insane corner games and neither can get up when they get knocked down but it's a fight for the neutral until one's in the corner. Sub is a bit less meter reliant than Bartitsu though which is why I think if it's not even it could be Sub's favour. However it might just be 5-5 because I have that secret corner tech ;)
You'll need to show me, half the stuff that gets posted on here i figured out ages ago and assumed everyone knew. Doombawks over here.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
You'll need to show me, half the stuff that gets posted on here i figured out ages ago and assumed everyone knew. Doombawks over here.
Feel free to come back round any time and I'll gladly show you :p Come tomorrow since it's my birthday heh