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Match-up Discussion - Grandmaster Sub-Zero MU Notes

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
Also if he's doing D1 or D3 on your wakeup that's a good thing, better than dealing with a mixup that leads to full combo lol. No need to spend so much meter on wakeup anyway.
if Jacqui doesn't wake up, d1/d3 will whiff, he can go 50/50 right after that. That's why I said his oki is broken vs Jacqui
the other stuffs I might reconsider. Anyway, FUCK his jump 1
Edit: and his backdash OMG. 123 DB1, back dash
 
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Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Edit sorry. I was too emotive and didn't thought very well. I still feel nostalgic about how easy He was able to do damage before.
I didn't read what you wrote before you edit it. lol. np, bro. ;)

Before patch, he was easy to be controlled. After patch, he became hard as fuck with his DBF inputs. This is why I miss it.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
if Jacqui doesn't wake up, d1/d3 will whiff, he can go 50/50 right after that. That's why I said his oki is broken vs Jacqui
the other stuffs I might reconsider. Anyway, FUCK his jump 1
Edit: and his backdash OMG. 123 DB1, back dash
A 50/50 isn't guaranteed after a whiffed D1/D3 though...
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Hmm, quiet here since the I2 Beta.

Soooooo, the General consensus for GM VS Possessed Kenshi was Drink Bleach. Is the Post Patch Match Up really that bad? Can GM do anything?

I think you can punish the teleport... well it worked in the lab and Ex Ice Ball and slide some things with Good timing...even then it's a risk but yeah it just feels so overwhelming when you play a solid PK.

Any one here familiar with the match up have any tips or strategies?
It's really bad but i'll let @Tweedy talk about that one, he has a good amount of experience.
 
Don't even try the Kenshi/Sub Zero M.U. . It's an unwinnable M.U. period. Possesed overhead is only punishable point blank, And He has true 50/50's endings with his plus on block strings + overhead demon or low demon. I tested it. Better learn Reptile for that M.U.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Don't even try the Kenshi/Sub Zero M.U. . It's an unwinnable M.U. period. Possesed overhead is only punishable point blank, And He has true 50/50's endings with his plus on block strings + overhead demon or low demon. I tested it. Better learn Reptile for that M.U.
They're not true 50/50's. They're fuzzyable at least if not the low is reactable.
 

Tweedy

Noob
Imo Reptile and Sub both lose 4-6 to Kenshi and yeah low demon is reactable.

I think people just theory fight with Kenshi too much. One guy told me at Frosty Faustings that he thinks SR Takeda is a good answer lol. Now Reptile?

I don't get why Sub loses so badly. He doesn't have to hold teleport ever because of his backdash, and his run under is one of the better answers to it, since it's a full combo and pretty easy against all teleports excluding 42(still possible though).

Kenshi's armor is really good vs Sub but it's not the end of the world since it doesn't launch. Kenshi's fastest mid is 11 frames(most of the time the 13 framer is the only one that'll reach, or the 12 frame low) so Sub's 7f d1 that's -3 can be mashed with no risk outside of a throw or another D1. His jump ins are really hard to anti air, he retains launching 50/50s even if klone isn't as good. Kenshi doesn't get a great B2 punish unless he does it from point blank.
 

Tweedy

Noob
There's other little stuff to consider too. Because of Sub's D4, post overhead demon on hit mind games are kind of in his favor due to Kenshi's D4 and B1 being 13 frames. If Sub runs passed a low demon or bf3, the risk/reward is way in his favor or even, vs Kenshi blowing up an iceball or ice klone with teleport/low demon/bf3.

Foxy is the only Sub I've ever seen manage his plus frames properly in the corner. You can't do 3-4 D1s and still guarantee a klone into 50/50 post f12. You'll just have to hold a wake up push if you try that.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Thanks for your responses guys. Still seems hard as VS a Solid Possessed but a few more things to try nonetheless.

So hit another pain in the ass match up...Spectral Ermac. Guy was flying at the Top of the screen playing keep away...but he was good too lured me in then full 50/50 combos mid screen. Knew I wasn't going to win but did 7 just to learn it. Didn't help...

Master of Souls can be a Pain in the right hands and Mystic is well drink bleach. Anyone come across any good Spectrals?

I'm not sure if we've discussed Ermac and strategies VS All his Variations post patch here. If we have please disregard but if we haven't what's the General consensus for Post Patch Ermac and strats for dealing with them?
Now you know why do I hate Ermac. His keeping flying is the mid-air trolling I was mentioning quite a few times.

Ermac is like Kenshi. One of the worst MUs.

To beat Ermac, you need Scorpion or Smoke.
 
kenshi vs subzero matchup is extremely saggy. Its disgusting. In the match up with subzero ill always go cryo, I feel its best suited for the job
 
Thanks for your responses guys. Still seems hard as VS a Solid Possessed but a few more things to try nonetheless.

So hit another pain in the ass match up...Spectral Ermac. Guy was flying at the Top of the screen playing keep away...but he was good too lured me in then full 50/50 combos mid screen. Knew I wasn't going to win but did 7 just to learn it. Didn't help...

Master of Souls can be a Pain in the right hands and Mystic is well drink bleach. Anyone come across any good Spectrals?

I'm not sure if we've discussed Ermac and strategies VS All his Variations post patch here. If we have please disregard but if we haven't what's the General consensus for Post Patch Ermac and strats for dealing with them?
Dont let him bully you (Spectral) if you get up on him he doesnt have many viable options, he is full of gaps. You can poke out of all of his hovers and just full combo him. Mystic I dont have any help for that lmao, hes annoying to fight. MoS just block the 50/50 and punish
 
IMO sub vs takeda is NOT a drink bleach matchup theres no way. Can someone explain to me why its a bad matchup because I think im missing something
 
Yep, GM it is. I always get away from the weaponry variations, if I play GM. Unbreakable? Is there a weak spot for UB to punish him?
every single time he uses bis main string I forget the name of it but its the one where he punches, up whip, overhead whip. There is a gap in that where you can ex slide and full combo. I think the match up is actually in UB favor tbh. And as for cryo he can also armour out but cant full combo off, so in conclusion my opinion is

Gm vs Takeda- 8-2
Cryo vs Takeda- 4-6
Unbreakable vs Takeda- 6-4
 
If only Ub parry stop every projectile (as He should). But nooo. Let it be a flawed defensive move, and let all the offensive moves to be unchecked. BTW, This should work on other defensive Variations as well. Covert Ops, Commando Kano ex: if Commando or Covert Ops parry Kenshi spiritual Bull**** and they are in range,It should work, and Kothal's parries should work everytime too.
 
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If only Ub parry stop every projectile (as He should). But nooo. Let it be a flawed defensive move, and let all the offensive moves to be unchecked. BTW, This should work on other defensive Variations as well. Covert Ops, Commando Kano ex: if Commando or Covert Ops parry (Kenshi spiritual Bull**** and they are in range,It should work), and Kothal parry should work everytime too.
The parry only doesnt block the kotal sword and disk if im correct, whats wrong with that? You know what they really should change? It should freeze jump ins. That would be C R I S P Y
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
every single time he uses bis main string I forget the name of it but its the one where he punches, up whip, overhead whip. There is a gap in that where you can ex slide and full combo. I think the match up is actually in UB favor tbh. And as for cryo he can also armour out but cant full combo off, so in conclusion my opinion is

Gm vs Takeda- 8-2
Cryo vs Takeda- 4-6
Unbreakable vs Takeda- 6-4
I remember this combo. I tried a bit Lasher Takeda. There's a gap at the OH whip. I saw even Hayatei using this combo quite often before he throws the kunais.

It's true for Cryo, because he no longer has the armor aura on all of the special moves, except of Icy Slide (EX).