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Match-up Discussion - Grandmaster Sub-Zero MU Notes

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
yeah but i still think he loses. madzin full auto and i all agree she beats him.

if sub gets hqt in the corner hes dead. sub also gets a full combo punish on d4 disc (all ranges). just gotta play patient and work your way in.
ive never thought the shaolin mu was AS bad as people said it was last patch but the db1 buff for sub and the nerfs to jin made it 5-5. also i take back what i said about dvorah i dont think its really drink bleach worthy but its in her favor for sure 6-4 imo.
I can see db1 buffs and puddle nerfs taking D'Vorah out of drink bleach. Predator is Deadator in the corner and in case we drop our controller or some shit he doesn't combo on ex bf4 for one bar anymore lol.
 

Rolling_Toaster

Praise be to Lord Brady
Sorry, but why do you think she can beat Sub 6-4? Thanks to her lack of hurtboxes, I would assume that she beats him 8-2. If she had that Alien fix, she would surely be 6-4.
if youre using f33/untechable grab corner she has no options at all other than armor and even then you can just walk backwards or block it and punish her. if she trys to zone you with puddle you can just toss a clone or ex ice ball. new db1 helps a lot too.
 

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
I lol'ed at Shotgun beats GM slightly. All he needs to do is 10000 jump in punches per round, mix with d4 clone. Jacqui has no answer for that
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
if youre using f33/untechable grab corner she has no options at all other than armor and even then you can just walk backwards or block it and punish her. if she trys to zone you with puddle you can just toss a clone or ex ice ball. new db1 helps a lot too.
I see. Will try them out.
 

Revenant Zero

Death Comes
Semiiij, Foreverking, Gunshow, and whoever else I asked at NEC, swore up and down that Sub Zero now beats Mileena.

Besides Foxy. He still thinks Mileena wins.

The opinions on this match up seem to vary so greatly. Why?
Piercing Vs. GM was a thing at NEC. Semiij isn't a Piercing Main like F0xy so I understand where he comes from.
tbh if Semiij played sets with Buffalo as Piercing, he would know more in that MU against GM.
He didn't seem comfortable with Piercing against GM, so it was a gamble he took in stride.
 

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
If you think that's how the matchup goes then you've either never played it or don't know Jacqui's options too well :p
I'm not a Shotgun expert but I do play her and I REALLY hate GM matchup
Jump attack's hurtbox now occurs 1f before the hitbox is active: I feel a LOT more confident with Cassie's or Kitana's s1 anti air, but against Sub's jump 1, I'm hopeless. All of Jacqui's anti air options have really low chance to work (s1, 4u4, d1). I can walk back and trip guard, but only a really noob GM Sub allows me to trip guard twice per round. Even if I got him in combo, Shotgun lost her vortex and some % on her combos, so it's not really a big thread to GM Sub
Meterless DB2 is a good option to punish unsafe clone cancel, but why the hell GM Sub needs to commit to unsafe clone cancel in this matchup? He has safe DB1 to end strings, trying to armor through that gap is not a nice trade
One thing I hate is that he can option select all of Jacqui's wakeups by doing d1/d3 on knockdown: BF1 whiffs, BF2 and BF4 are too slow so he can recovery in time and block those.
We can try to play footsie but his d4 and B12 are no jokes. They're amazing against her short limbs
In the corner we're dead, as usual. I always pick Full Auto vs any variation of Sub.
Is there any match footage between Jacqui and Sub in tournaments so I can watch some more?
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
In the corner we're dead, as usual. I always pick Full Auto vs any variation of Sub.
I'm dead from the laughs from your post. I'm a GM main, which you hate the most. lol

Laughs aside, Full Auto is not an option, too against GM. I played this noob Full Auto from my buddy, who wanted to troll me. He kept away from me, and kept firing on me, but I found out that if I neutral duck, I won't get hit (similar to Kitana). I can easily get close to her with various moves.

If you were a good Jacqui main, you would beat him with Shotgun. Jacqui is completely a weapon variation, which irritates me with her zoning to break my Ice Klone and can punish me with a lot of options to force me to guess which to block. A while ago, I played her a bit to try her, so I know.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Iv been toying around with the idea of using Unbreakable vs Lasher and SR Takeda. The aura ex icy slide could blow up the new gaps in Takeda's pressure for a combo, all the while not taking any chip, parry might end up being more useful than klone in that matchup because of the whips, and since Takeda can wakeup in the corner now. It's all in theory though, iv never played it or seen it. Might be enough to remove Takeda from drink bleach tier. Care to weigh in guys?
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Unpopular opinion but I genuinely think Unbreakable > Cryomancer. Especially when it comes to supporting Grandmaster I doubt there's a match that Cryomancer does better than Grandmaster. And the matchups where Cryomancer is better than Unbreakable, Grandmaster will still likely be the best choice.
 
Unpopular opinion but I genuinely think Unbreakable > Cryomancer. Especially when it comes to supporting Grandmaster I doubt there's a match that Cryomancer does better than Grandmaster. And the matchups where Cryomancer is better than Unbreakable, Grandmaster will still likely be the best choice.
Cryomancer was downgraded to trash level. So this is the truth right now.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
I'm not a Shotgun expert but I do play her and I REALLY hate GM matchup
Jump attack's hurtbox now occurs 1f before the hitbox is active: I feel a LOT more confident with Cassie's or Kitana's s1 anti air, but against Sub's jump 1, I'm hopeless. All of Jacqui's anti air options have really low chance to work (s1, 4u4, d1). I can walk back and trip guard, but only a really noob GM Sub allows me to trip guard twice per round. Even if I got him in combo, Shotgun lost her vortex and some % on her combos, so it's not really a big thread to GM Sub
Meterless DB2 is a good option to punish unsafe clone cancel, but why the hell GM Sub needs to commit to unsafe clone cancel in this matchup? He has safe DB1 to end strings, trying to armor through that gap is not a nice trade
One thing I hate is that he can option select all of Jacqui's wakeups by doing d1/d3 on knockdown: BF1 whiffs, BF2 and BF4 are too slow so he can recovery in time and block those.
We can try to play footsie but his d4 and B12 are no jokes. They're amazing against her short limbs
In the corner we're dead, as usual. I always pick Full Auto vs any variation of Sub.
Is there any match footage between Jacqui and Sub in tournaments so I can watch some more?
Against Sub's jump 1 you don't NEED to anti-air, you can just walk or run forward to make it whiff then trip guard. It's also a blowup that you didn't even mention her D2 as an anti-air, which also works if you make the right read.
She hasn't lost her vortex at all, have you played her this patch? As for the % loss on her damage it's like 5% midscreen and even less of a decrease in the corner lol.
He wants to do clone cancels to build meter, same reason he's chucking ice balls once he has his clone out. But you're right in that having the safe DB1 can be quite annoying but his turn is over after that so it's not a huge problem.
Also if he's doing D1 or D3 on your wakeup that's a good thing, better than dealing with a mixup that leads to full combo lol. No need to spend so much meter on wakeup anyway.
D4 can be a problem, sure, but her walkspeed combined with normals like F1 or even just ex low shotgun makes it an issue for him to just be throwing stuff like that out.
As for the corner we're certainly not dead. Shotgun goes through clone and not only do we have a side switching armour option but also a safe armour option. Also if she jumps over Sub trying to attack her in the corner she gets more than a NJP punish since she can do the ground pound or even fake the ground pound to build meter.
Not sure if there's Shotgun vs Grandmaster footage tbh, never actually seen it played in tournament never mind in casual footage.
 
I miss this combo:

B2, B2, F42TxxEX Ice Hammer, F42TxxEX Iceball. JIP, F42TxxEX Ice Hammer, 123xxSlide. 50%.
Edit sorry. I was too emotive and didn't thought very well. I still feel nostalgic about how easy He was able to do damage before.
 
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