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Match-up Discussion - Grandmaster Sub-Zero MU Notes

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Updated 2/23/17

Grandmaster Sub is really good right now, he has the tools to fight through almost any situation.

Alien 6-4
Jason 6-4
Kung Lao 5-5
Jax 7-3 (possibly 8-2)
Sonya 4-6 (possibly 3-7)
Kenshi 4-6
Kitana 5-5
Scorpion 5-5
Sub-Zero 5-5
Mileena 5-5
Takeda 3-7
Cassie Cage 6-4
Jacqui Briggs 4-6
Kung Jin 5-5
Tanya 4-6
Bo Rai Cho 5-5
Leatherface 6-4
Predator 5-5 (possibly 4-6)
Shinnok 5-5
Kano 6-4
Johnny Cage 6-4
Erron Black 6-4
Liu Kang 5-5
Ermac 3-7
Kotal Kahn 7-3
Reptile 6-4 (possibly 5-5)
Ferra/Torr 4-6
D'Vorah 4-6
Raiden 5-5 (possibly 4-6)
Quan Chi 5-5
Goro 5-5
Tremor 3-7
Smoke 7-3
Cyrax 7-3
Sektor 5-5
Cyber Sub-Zero 6-4

Heavy advantage matchups: 4
Advantage matchups: 9
Mostly even matchups: 14
Disadvantage matchups: 6
Heavy disadvantage matchups: 3
 
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Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Gm vs tanya pyro 6-4 maybe 7-3 sz favor. If u wanna know why ill explain.
Oh my god I forgot Tanya existed. And yeah, I'd appreciate anything. I'm coming at this from the approach that the opposing character chooses their best variation for the SZ matchup. That's why you don't see any 7-3s. You're welcome to explain any of Tanya's variations that you think would help!
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Kenshi 5:5? Always had trouble playing GM against him and thought that Cryo would be a better pick.
I agree, I think Grandmaster loses. I had it under the Grandmaster prefix because that's what most people think of when they think SZ. I'll edit the OP.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Agreed with Kitana, D'vorah and triborg (smoke). Mileena is that bad? Why?
She controls the entire pace of the match. I can't clone anywhere past point blank because the super fast sai recovery destroys them so easy with no consequence, i can't zone her because of sais and tele kick, I can't antizone with slide because low sai, can't jump because roll,up close all my pokes will get beaten by hers, B12 will beat everything. The only place on screen where SZ is comfortable is the max range of B2 where she can't punish it at that distance. Other than that she will build a shit ton of bar and I will need to 50/50 or jump in to get her where I want her and to keep her from constantly breaking and draining my stamina putting me at square one. Basically I'm massively outclassed anywhere on screen except the corner for odvious reasons.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Do it by variation, by character is only going to cause arguments/confusion!
 

rubmytaco

CarriedByClone
Jacqui beats sub easily in full auto. Machine gun takes away clone and ice ball and I personally cannot slide it on reaction. Her tiny hitbox also makes it very difficult to do any decent damage in the corner.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
You can slide on reaction at the right distance. As long as you aren't full screen I really don't see the problem with Jacqui. Just don't Klone in her face. Open her up with 50/50s and put her in the corner. Yeah you won't get great damage in the corner but once she is there she is stuck unless you fuck up. I don't see how this can be any worse than 5-5 vs GM or Cryo.
 

jaylee777

Juh-Mill-E
I think stunt double cage loses to gm. He can be punished fairly easily every time he calls a mimic and without any mimics he stands little to no chance vs sub, especially in the corner.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
I think stunt double cage loses to gm. He can be punished fairly easily every time he calls a mimic and without any mimics he stands little to no chance vs sub, especially in the corner.
Once he does get them out, SZ can't Klone at all, and he can abuse his much much better normals and go into pressure, and on the flip side, SZ is just as screwed once he is cornered. Jailing chip, and the pseudo unblockable cheese into restand or into 121 into mimic call. RIP as fuck. But yes, you are right, SZ will dominate Cage in the corner and without mimic. Both will play the neutral and try to force a mistake out of the opponent. SZ won't want to leave the Klone because Cage crushes him in footsies, and Cage will try to get mimics out, or build meter for ex shadow kick or else he will be stone walled by the Klone. Once the first hit is initiated and the momentum shifts for either character, the character who messed up is in for some bullshit. They both can hurt each other so badly, but they need to take control of the match first off, and I feel they are both equally equipped to do against each other. Appreciate the discussion though, I like to hear other's insights.
 

jaylee777

Juh-Mill-E
Once he does get them out, SZ can't Klone at all, and he can abuse his much much better normals and go into pressure, and on the flip side, SZ is just as screwed once he is cornered. Jailing chip, and the pseudo unblockable cheese into restand or into 121 into mimic call. RIP as fuck. But yes, you are right, SZ will dominate Cage in the corner and without mimic. Both will play the neutral and try to force a mistake out of the opponent. SZ won't want to leave the Klone because Cage crushes him in footsies, and Cage will try to get mimics out, or build meter for ex shadow kick or else he will be stone walled by the Klone. Once the first hit is initiated and the momentum shifts for either character, the character who messed up is in for some bullshit. They both can hurt each other so badly, but they need to take control of the match first off, and I feel they are both equally equipped to do against each other. Appreciate the discussion though, I like to hear other's insights.
You make some good points, however I still believe the match is in sub's favor and here's why:

1. If sub does his klone while cage has mimics out all johnny can get is 7% at the expense of one of his two mimics. In this match I believe cage needs to try to have at least one mimic active at all times, so using one for just 7% isn't always the best investment imo.
2. I do not believe that cage crushes sub in footsies. Sub's d4 can shut down a majority of cage's options. In sd cage does not get any pressure with his F3 without mimics so its really hard to get in and stay in.
3. While the "pseudo unblockable cheese" (lol) is pretty dirty, the cage player has to open the sub zero up first by having him get hit by f2 or 113 while in the corner which while very possible, is also very difficult if the sub player is familiar with the matchup and good at blocking.
4. Johnny can hurt sub very badly and control the matchup, but I feel like sub can regain control a lot easier than cage can. His ex db1 can blow up 113 or anything else johnny does that does not jail. And I believe it's only -11 making it a 2 frame punish for johnny with his 9 frame s1. (Or is it a 1 frame because of the extra frame to get out of block? idk)

I'm still trying to improve at this matchup but atm it feels like johnny still gets beat by sub. My opinion may change in the future though. Like you said, I'd also like to hear what other people think about this matchup.
 
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Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
You make some good points, however I still believe the match is in sub's favor and here's why:

1. If sub does his klone while cage has mimics out all johnny can get is 7% at the expense of one of his two mimics. In this match I believe cage needs to try to have at least one mimic active at all times, so using one for just 7% isn't always the best investment imo.
2. I do not believe that cage crushes sub in footsies. Sub's d4 can shut down a majority of cage's options. In sd cage does not get any pressure with his F3 without mimics so its really hard to get in and stay in.
3. While the "pseudo unblockable cheese" (lol) is pretty dirty, the cage player has to open the sub zero up first by having him get hit by f2 or 113 while in the corner which while very possible, is also very difficult if the sub player is familiar with the matchup and good at blocking.
4. Johnny can hurt sub very badly and control the matchup, but I feel like sub can regain control a lot easier than cage can. His ex bf1 can blow up 113 or anything else johnny does that does not jail. And I believe it's only -11 making it a 2 frame punish for johnny with his 9 frame s1. (Or is it a 1 frame because of the extra frame to get out of block? idk)

I'm still trying to improve at this matchup but atm it feels like johnny still gets beat by sub. My opinion may change in the future though. Like you said, I'd also like to hear what other people think about this matchup.
Are you on xbox? I'll play with you lol.
I'll try my best to address your points here.
1. Yes, you're right, but the simple fact that the mimics are active will make SZ reluctant to Klone, so in a way they served their purpose. They also go through the Klone and the Klone goes away on block, so if Cage is in F3 distance, he gets pressure.

2. Fair enough, but the shear range on Cage's attacks compared to Sub is laughable. SZ doesn't have anything like F3. And yeah, D4 is able to low profile a lot of stuff, but if SZ has to preemptively throw out a D4 in anticipation of whatever Cage does, it puts the situation in Cage's favor because it opens him up to whiff punishes which is dangerous against F3.

3. I don't know how good at blocking you would have to be to handle that lol. And can't Cage enforce the hard to blockable off of F3 xx EX DB1(with mimics)? Or is there something I'm missing?

4. BF1 isn't a move for SZ. Do you mean EX DB1? (And it's minus 10 lol) and yeah not only will Sub be able to blow up 113, but if Sub was cornered he is able to run cancel then do F42 grab and put Cage back in the corner lol. If Sub had cage cornered, he gets 32% into a F12 knockdown into a free Klone, midscreen he gets 19%, so yeah that could be trouble for Cage.
 

jaylee777

Juh-Mill-E
Are you on xbox? I'll play with you lol.
I'll try my best to address your points here.
1. Yes, you're right, but the simple fact that the mimics are active will make SZ reluctant to Klone, so in a way they served their purpose. They also go through the Klone and the Klone goes away on block, so if Cage is in F3 distance, he gets pressure.

2. Fair enough, but the shear range on Cage's attacks compared to Sub is laughable. SZ doesn't have anything like F3. And yeah, D4 is able to low profile a lot of stuff, but if SZ has to preemptively throw out a D4 in anticipation of whatever Cage does, it puts the situation in Cage's favor because it opens him up to whiff punishes which is dangerous against F3.

3. I don't know how good at blocking you would have to be to handle that lol. And can't Cage enforce the hard to blockable off of F3 xx EX DB1(with mimics)? Or is there something I'm missing?

4. BF1 isn't a move for SZ. Do you mean EX DB1? (And it's minus 10 lol) and yeah not only will Sub be able to blow up 113, but if Sub was cornered he is able to run cancel then do F42 grab and put Cage back in the corner lol. If Sub had cage cornered, he gets 32% into a F12 knockdown into a free Klone, midscreen he gets 19%, so yeah that could be trouble for Cage.
Yeah I'm on xbox. I'll message you my gt and maybe we can play sometime later tonight.

Cage can do the pseudo unblockable cheese off of f3 ex db1 but in order for the sweep to hit cage would have to be at a particular distance from sub which is set up mainly after a nut punch in the corner. If cage did something like f3 mimic kick into f3 ex db1 into the pseudo unblockable, the sweep would whiff more often than not.

And yeah I meant ex db1 smh.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Yeah I'm on xbox. I'll message you my gt and maybe we can play sometime later tonight.

Cage can do the pseudo unblockable cheese off of f3 ex db1 but in order for the sweep to hit cage would have to be at a particular distance from sub which is set up mainly after a nut punch in the corner. If cage did something like f3 mimic kick into f3 ex db1 into the pseudo unblockable, the sweep would whiff more often than not.

And yeah I meant ex db1 smh.
Ok that makes sense.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
This list needs some help lol but its for the most part accurate. Some of these numbers are insane though..
I'd appreciate anything constructive. Iv even said I don't know everything, and I want this to be a chart made by the SZ community not just me.