Strategy Sub-Zero Matchup Discussion Thread

[Qwark28]

ex roll is safe on block(he's at a slight disadvantage) and yes regular roll can be done on reaction to iceball.

10 and 16 are some of the faster ones, but his big damage comes for the 16 frame one.

I've played REO and Sgt Reed some time ago in the match ups, I usually do pretty solid.

On the turtling thing, it depends on lifelead, but I wouldn't argue that either way.

defo 6 4 then

send me a pm, interesting char for the 2 mins i was looking his roll command for.

 

[Espio]

defo 6 4 then

send me a pm, interesting char for the 2 mins i was looking his roll command for.

Yeah, 4-6, not too bad.


You want a PM about Stryker(some specifics/clarification is appreciated)? I'm about to go to bed, but I'll send you something when I get home from university late in the day.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

D3 & D1 through clone is almost universal and he doesnt have just F4 but 224 which also catches pokes.

all it takes is one ex slide for shang to be in the corner instead and with his oki he aint gettin out anytime soon

SS would only beat iceball and clone, too slow for anything else and can be punished for full combo, if done at max range then sub can have an iceball out already which will beat SS and trade with gskull in HIS favor

when sub has the lead he will only play at a distance where he can slide/ex slide projectiles, shang STILL only has projectiles, his normals crumble before 22

and subs pressure doesnt have to keep him out once the clone is out, 21 or 214, the first leaves sub in the range he wants to be and 214 clone has the threat of ex slide incase you do a projectile or walk back SS

But like I said, being in the corner isn't that big of a deal since Sub can't hit very hard. Same with the Ice ball trades.

 

[Qwark28]

But like I said, being in the corner isn't that big of a deal since Sub can't hit very hard. Same with the Ice ball trades.

20-25% plus setups and pressure is a big deal when you cant escape with that shity oki, im playing around with subs 222 trap atm to see if its even required since slides so good

 

[lebanese boy]

Yo qwark u sure liu vs sub is 6-4 ?

 

[Qwark28]

Yo qwark u sure liu vs sub is 6-4 ?

yep, liu outzones him till the corner, then its rape.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

20-25% plus setups and pressure is a big deal when you cant escape with that shity oki, im playing around with subs 222 trap atm to see if its even required since slides so good

My point is that the guessing games are in Shang's favor. He takes more damage on a good read and his guessing games are just as good, if not better than Sub's.

 

[Qwark28]

My point is that the guessing games are in Shang's favor. He takes more damage on a good read and his guessing games are just as good, if not better than Sub's.

and my point is that only happens midscreen, in the corner its horribly one sided

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

abuse his wakeups using slide

i happen to play shang since a few months after release, he NEEDS meter for good meterless damage

soulsteal max range can be iceballed, he trades with skulls anyways and can SLIDE him, he loses the trade by 2% but its an untechable knockdown and shang has no oki

F4 gs can be armoured and D3'd, even if he does D3 after F4 gs hes only +3, his f4 becomes 7f, you can still D3 right after.

in the corner he gets raped, if he does escape the corner then you can ex slide on reaction:

SS
Uskull
Gskull

and can armour through his pressure

Uskulls can be slid at 3/4th screen

SS is suicide if sub catches you and LBSH, he will, one stray iceball means almost half life for sub and who plays sub better? the shang player or the SUBZERO player?

when it comes to normals 21 clone is great in this matchup, keeps you in the range you wanna be in

I had a response.... but you aren't going to just YOLO slide Shang.... which is what you're describing.
WoundCowboy..... please ..... help him.

My bad.... you already did.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

It's a pretty fair match up overall.

I think it's the clone and the corner put this at 4-6.

Clone hinders Stryker's spacing/footsie game, which is also why I have Jade losing for similar reasons.

Stryker's counterzoning and zoning have a place in this match up, but I feel Sub slightly disrupts those options.




Stryker has good options with a solid armor move to change positions/get out of the corner, gun cancels are good for baiting slides if spaced well. Stryker has good midscreen meterless 40% damage and things like that.


4-6's can sometimes feel like 5-5's because of how close and competitive they are still.


LETHAL also was of the opinion Stryker versus Sub was 5-5 last I recall, but I could be wrong with my opinion.

I have this at 7-3 in SZ favor.
There are only a handful of these SZ has where he basically controls the entire match... even when he doesn't have a life lead.
Maybe at the highest level its a 6-4... but until someone drastically changes how I have to play the MU... poor Stryker just catch touch this.

 

[Qwark28]

I had a response.... but you aren't going to just YOLO slide Shang.... which is what you're describing.
WoundCowboy..... please ..... help him.

My bad.... you already did.

please re-read my post.

again.

repeat until you see the part where you get a slide AFTER a trade with an iceball

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

please re-read my post.

again.

repeat until you see the part where you get a slide AFTER a trade with an iceball

I read your post like 3 times to make sure I read it all correctly
You basically theory fight the shit out of every situation that we brought up... and non of them are to any advantage for SZ.

Shang can willy nilly toss out ground skulls the entire match and never fear any type of trade. Sure it'll happen, but more often than not, he'll have the meter to break and take no damage.

The only reason this isn't a legit 7-3 is because SZ CAN work Shang in the corner pretty well.... however Shang is one of the few who makes SZ actually use meter to combat his corner defense.

I'm not trying to prove anything you said wrong.... i'm giving you the overall scheme of the MU. Two players of equal skill this MU doesn't favor a SZ player.
In my opinion... this is what JC goes through when fighting SZ. People label it a 6-4 but it is one hell of a 6-4.

 

[Qwark28]

I read your post like 3 times to make sure I read it all correctly
You basically theory fight the shit out of every situation that we brought up... and non of them are to any advantage for SZ.

Shang can willy nilly toss out ground skulls the entire match and never fear any type of trade. Sure it'll happen, but more often than not, he'll have the meter to break and take no damage.

The only reason this isn't a legit 7-3 is because SZ CAN work Shang in the corner pretty well.... however Shang is one of the few who makes SZ actually use meter to combat his corner defense.

I'm not trying to prove anything you said wrong.... i'm giving you the overall scheme of the MU. Two players of equal skill this MU doesn't favor a SZ player.
In my opinion... this is what JC goes through when fighting SZ. People label it a 6-4 but it is one hell of a 6-4.

trade= slide= he wont break a 7%, after that you go for your guaranteed 212 since in no way can he interrupt it without risking losing either a bar and a third of his HP or his whole meter bar


i never theory fight, i have access to almost every matchup in the game and i pick up chars very quick, i know x option vs y option

sub uses meter vs everyone in the corner, you never wanna be caught by ex slide because assrape will follow

fullscreen= shang wins
midscreen= even
corner= subzero wins

when played right this matchup is completely even IMO

 

[Espio]

I have this at 7-3 in SZ favor.
There are only a handful of these SZ has where he basically controls the entire match... even when he doesn't have a life lead.
Maybe at the highest level its a 6-4... but until someone drastically changes how I have to play the MU... poor Stryker just catch touch this.

Match up charts are at the highest level...my points are all valid.Dink is good with Stryker, but he is does not main him. if you're judging how you do against people who play Stryker who don't main him at the highest lev and don't even secondary him against your best character then yes it seems better.No disrespect, but you wouldn't use my Baraka to gauge how Baraka does in a match up because my Baraka is not a top Baraka.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Match up charts are at the highest level...my points are all valid.Dink is good with Stryker, but he is does not main him. if you're judging how you do against people who play Stryker who don't main him at the highest lev and don't even secondary him against your best character then yes it seems better.No disrespect, but you wouldn't use Baraka to gauge how Baraka does in a match up because my Baraka is not a top Baraka.

It was more of when I played Vulcan Hades.
I don't really take much accord into the casual.

 

[Espio]

It was more of when I played Vulcan Hades.
I don't really take much accord into the casual.

You and I talked about that a while ago, but that's been over a year ago from what you told me or close to it That match up is played very differently. You have Sheeva at 6-4 with her slower normals, projectile and lower consistent damage. I have them both at 6-4, but I digress.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

You and I talked about that a while ago, but that's been over a year ago from what you told me or close to it That match up is played very differently. You have Sheeva at 6-4 with her slower normals, projectile and lower consistent damage. I have them both at 6-4, but I digress.

I mean... its just my opinion. I don't really have anything different than you do in the MU... I just feel more in control.
Nothing more or less honestly.

 

[16 Bit]

Kitana vs. Sub-Zero is not 2-8 LBSH.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Kitana vs. Sub-Zero is not 2-8 LBSH.

after watching you pummel brady time after time after time

why not?

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

trade= slide= he wont break a 7%, after that you go for your guaranteed 212 since in no way can he interrupt it without risking losing either a bar and a third of his HP or his whole meter bar


i never theory fight, i have access to almost every matchup in the game and i pick up chars very quick, i know x option vs y option

sub uses meter vs everyone in the corner, you never wanna be caught by ex slide because assrape will follow

fullscreen= shang wins
midscreen= even
corner= subzero wins

when played right this matchup is completely even IMO

Yes, sub gets a block string in the corner off of a risky slide. What does he do after that. He cant really come in because shang can keep him out with d3 and CGS, even in the corner. If shang skulls early enough. The iceball wont come out. All d3s may go through clone, but very few of them have shangs range.

 

[Qwark28]

Yes, sub gets a block string in the corner off of a risky slide. What does he do after that. He cant really come in because shang can keep him out with d3 and CGS, even in the corner. If shang skulls early enough. The iceball wont come out. All d3s may go through clone, but very few of them have shangs range.

why is everyone saying about a "risky" slide? he can slide you if he trades with a mid gs

212 clone, iceball to kill the cgs, 224 or f4 to kill the poke, one of them being completely safe.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

why is everyone saying about a "risky" slide? he can slide you if he trades with a mid gs

212 clone, iceball to kill the cgs, 224 or f4 to kill the poke, one of them being completely safe.

You lose the advantage if the slide trades with a skull. Beating the skull with a ice ball is not a reaction, but is a read which means that sub has to committ ahead of time. 22 will only work at its max distance to beat out d3. If sub tries to come in he will get d3ed out or counter poked.

 

[Qwark28]

You lose the advantage if the slide trades with a skull. Beating the skull with a ice ball is not a reaction, but is a read which means that sub has to committ ahead of time. 22 will only work at its max distance to beat out d3. If sub tries to come in he will get d3ed out or counter poked.

which means youre forced to check me with a groundskull, its a tool.

re-read my post, if an iceball HITS you and trades with a mgs then i can slide for free

about the 22, so?

EVEN if you get a MAX range d3 thats only +3 on hit, whatcha gonna do? sub can just 224, f4 wont reach, if you wait till subs close then you got a blockstring in the face.

 

[xKhaoTik]

after watching you pummel brady time after time after time

why not?

Yea i don't think its 2-8 either. It's a horrible MU for him, yes, but 2-8 is something like CSZ vs Kitana or Sheeva vs Kitana, and the Sub MU isn't as bad as those. It's a real bitch when Sub gets the life lead, ESPECIALLY against a Sub like Tom's.

Also, IMO, Mileena goes 5-5 with Sub and Sonya beats him 6-4

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

which means youre forced to check me with a groundskull, its a tool.

re-read my post, if an iceball HITS you and trades with a mgs then i can slide for free

about the 22, so?

EVEN if you get a MAX range d3 thats only +3 on hit, whatcha gonna do? sub can just 224, f4 wont reach, if you wait till subs close then you got a blockstring in the face.

If d3 hits at max range, I won't press my advantage. I can simply SS and beat out the clone or catch sub trying to 2,2 me. In order for the 2,2 to hit, he would have to dash in which would add too many frames to the string and would also leave him vulnerable to the SS.