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Strategy Sub-Zero Matchup Discussion Thread

NYCj360

i Use a modded cyber now
Just an observation, I feel Sub/CSZ may be 6-4 by now. Nothing has really changed but he CSZ can keep Sub's wake up and corner game honest enough to stand ground, even if it doesn't get him out. I think Sub would only take 7+ games if the CSZ player is horrendously wreckless.

But that's all it is, an observation, I haven't seen anybody really discuss the matchup in months, maybe J360 can give a more honest opinion?
at first i knew not how to play this matchup correctly, most of us dont. I played brady the first time around and got blown up bad. But after taking time to analyze the match and playing a million sub zeros with CSZ ive found many ways to make this matchup play out better. IMO its a 6-4 because regardless of the options i have as CSZ it is still easier for sub to play this match than the other way around. This match is very similar to cage vs sub in the sense that it is about getting a lead and maintaining a lead at the highest level. Sub can be annoying but CSZ has much better mobility options when he is trying to stay away instead of trying to actually hit sub zero.
 

Wildabeast

The Bat in the Hat
Lol hard to get in on? Every ring = slide. You're in. And IMO in this mu, you don't even wanna be in. Get the life less and she's gotta come to you. And idk about you guys, but that's what I want.
Shes only going to be throwing rings if you're totally full screen or if she smells a clone, so no you're not sliding every ring. And yes its harder to get the initial life lead against Sonya than it is Cage, and if she gets the life lead first its harder to get it back from her.
 

NYCj360

i Use a modded cyber now
.... wait? what?
when CSZ tries to get a hit on a sub zero who has a lead, sub zero limits almost every option CSZ has from afar with a simple ice clone, it even acts as a parry towards dive kicks. When CSZ is not trying to get a hit but actually trying to run and keep a lead, a simple jump over dive kick gets him far far away from sub.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
when CSZ tries to get a hit on a sub zero who has a lead, sub zero limits almost every option CSZ has from afar with a simple ice clone, it even acts as a parry towards dive kicks. When CSZ is not trying to get a hit but actually trying to run and keep a lead, a simple jump over dive kick gets him far far away from sub.
ahh ok.
 

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
Weird.....game been out since April 2011, and no Sub Zero player didn' t think to make this type of thread......why lol
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Weird.....game been out since April 2011, and no Sub Zero player didn' t think to make this type of thread......why lol
Too many people don't understand his MU's and how to use his gimmicks to their advantage.

So there is a huge gap between the players.

Conservative vs. Non-Conservative.
 

Seapeople

This one's for you
Weird.....game been out since April 2011, and no Sub Zero player didn' t think to make this type of thread......why lol
Well we had one...but it was locked because who knows.
Anybody notice that the Sub forum suddenly became active again once this thread opened back up? Matchup discussion is keeping this community together and tearing it apart at the same time lol.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
when CSZ tries to get a hit on a sub zero who has a lead, sub zero limits almost every option CSZ has from afar with a simple ice clone, it even acts as a parry towards dive kicks. When CSZ is not trying to get a hit but actually trying to run and keep a lead, a simple jump over dive kick gets him far far away from sub.
reverse slide/dash back block/air clone?
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Shang beats Sub imo.
and its not even close to be honest.
Everytime I play you... my ONLY goal is getting you to the corner. I think i've won once because I managed to keep you there.
If Shang stays out of the corner.... he wins. He has too many advantageous traps that build meter.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
and its not even close to be honest.
Everytime I play you... my ONLY goal is getting you to the corner. I think i've won once because I managed to keep you there.
If Shang stays out of the corner.... he wins. He has too many advantageous traps that build meter.
youre confusing tools with skill
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Baraka - 6/4
Cyber Sub - 7/3
Cyrax - 2/8
Ermac - 5/5
Freddy - 3/7
Jade - 6/4
Jax - 4/6
J. Cage - 6/4
Kabal - 3/7
Kano - 8/2
Kenshi - 1/9
Kitana - 2/8
Kung Lao - 4/6
Liu Kang - 4/6
Mileena - 6/4
Nightwolf - 7/3
Noob - 4/6
Quan Chi - 6/4
Raiden - 3/7
Rain - 6/4
Reptile - 5/5
Scorpion - 6/4
Sektor - 5/5
Shang Tsung - 4/6
Sheeva - 6/4
Sindel - 4/6
Skarlet - 3/7
Smoke - 3/7
Sonya - 5/5
Stryker - 7/3

That is what I think.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
youre confusing tools with skill
no
i'm not. Look at Shangs frames. You can't trade with ground skull. That is the only projetile he will be using. That and SS at max range. SZ can not punish ANY of these options. So you're either blocking them and giving him meter.... or you're eating unbreakable 30%+ combo's.

To top it off... Shangs F4~GS shenanigans WORK on SZ even with the clone. He simplly just has to do a tiny dash which breaks the clone and lets him combo.

he controls the MU from the word Fight. Thank god his armor sucks and isn't a combo starter.
He's worse than Sonya because she has to use d4.
Shang can just use his projectiles.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
no
i'm not. Look at Shangs frames. You can't trade with ground skull. That is the only projetile he will be using. That and SS at max range. SZ can not punish ANY of these options. So you're either blocking them and giving him meter.... or you're eating unbreakable 30%+ combo's.

To top it off... Shangs F4~GS shenanigans WORK on SZ even with the clone. He simplly just has to do a tiny dash which breaks the clone and lets him combo.

he controls the MU from the word Fight. Thank god his armor sucks and isn't a combo starter.
He's worse than Sonya because she has to use d4.
Shang can just use his projectiles.
abuse his wakeups using slide

i happen to play shang since a few months after release, he NEEDS meter for good meterless damage

soulsteal max range can be iceballed, he trades with skulls anyways and can SLIDE him, he loses the trade by 2% but its an untechable knockdown and shang has no oki

F4 gs can be armoured and D3'd, even if he does D3 after F4 gs hes only +3, his f4 becomes 7f, you can still D3 right after.

in the corner he gets raped, if he does escape the corner then you can ex slide on reaction:

SS
Uskull
Gskull

and can armour through his pressure

Uskulls can be slid at 3/4th screen

SS is suicide if sub catches you and LBSH, he will, one stray iceball means almost half life for sub and who plays sub better? the shang player or the SUBZERO player?

when it comes to normals 21 clone is great in this matchup, keeps you in the range you wanna be in
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
abuse his wakeups using slide

i happen to play shang since a few months after release, he NEEDS meter for good meterless damage

soulsteal max range can be iceballed, he trades with skulls anyways and can SLIDE him, he loses the trade by 2% but its an untechable knockdown and shang has no oki

F4 gs can be armoured and D3'd, even if he does D3 after F4 gs hes only +3, his f4 becomes 7f, you can still D3 right after.

in the corner he gets raped, if he does escape the corner then you can ex slide on reaction:

SS
Uskull
Gskull

and can armour through his pressure

Uskulls can be slid at 3/4th screen

SS is suicide if sub catches you and LBSH, he will, one stray iceball means almost half life for sub and who plays sub better? the shang player or the SUBZERO player?

when it comes to normals 21 clone is great in this matchup, keeps you in the range you wanna be in
Shang just has nothing to fear from Sub because Sub is never safe with the lead (unless it is substantial). I don't care if I get hit by a couple of combos because Shang does better damage and really hurts Sub once he is in the corner. D3 goes through the clone, as does D1. Shang doesn't even really have to pressure, honestly. He can chip him to death and beat out most of his options with SS. The only way sub wins is if he takes big risks such as F+4 and random slides. Shang gets to play pretty laid back.
 

Espio

Kokomo
Lead Moderator
tell me why stryker loses, i think this could be even
It's a pretty fair match up overall.

I think it's the clone and the corner put this at 4-6.

Clone hinders Stryker's spacing/footsie game, which is also why I have Jade losing for similar reasons.

Stryker's counterzoning and zoning have a place in this match up, but I feel Sub slightly disrupts those options.




Stryker has good options with a solid armor move to change positions/get out of the corner, gun cancels are good for baiting slides if spaced well. Stryker has good midscreen meterless 40% damage and things like that.


4-6's can sometimes feel like 5-5's because of how close and competitive they are still.


LETHAL also was of the opinion Stryker versus Sub was 5-5 last I recall, but I could be wrong with my opinion.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Shang just has nothing to fear from Sub because Sub is never safe with the lead (unless it is substantial). I don't care if I get hit by a couple of combos because Shang does better damage and really hurts Sub once he is in the corner. D3 goes through the clone, as does D1. Shang doesn't even really have to pressure, honestly. He can chip him to death and beat out most of his options with SS. The only way sub wins is if he takes big risks such as F+4 and random slides. Shang gets to play pretty laid back.
D3 & D1 through clone is almost universal and he doesnt have just F4 but 224 which also catches pokes.

all it takes is one ex slide for shang to be in the corner instead and with his oki he aint gettin out anytime soon

SS would only beat iceball and clone, too slow for anything else and can be punished for full combo, if done at max range then sub can have an iceball out already which will beat SS and trade with gskull in HIS favor

when sub has the lead he will only play at a distance where he can slide/ex slide projectiles, shang STILL only has projectiles, his normals crumble before 22

and subs pressure doesnt have to keep him out once the clone is out, 21 or 214, the first leaves sub in the range he wants to be and 214 clone has the threat of ex slide incase you do a projectile or walk back SS
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
It's a pretty fair match up overall.

I think it's the clone and the corner put this at 4-6.

Clone hinders Stryker's spacing/footsie game, which is also why I have Jade losing for similar reasons.

Stryker's counterzoning and zoning have a place in this match up, but I feel Sub slightly disrupts those options.




Stryker has good options with a solid armor move to change positions/get out of the corner, gun cancels are good for baiting slides if spaced well. Stryker has good midscreen meterless 40% damage and things like that.


4-6's can sometimes feel like 5-5's because of how close and competitive they are still.


LETHAL also was of the opinion Stryker versus Sub was 5-5 last I recall, but I could be wrong with my opinion.
is the ex roll on block safe and can normal roll be done on reaction to iceball? what are his fastest combo starters?

the main thing is that sub can outurtle stryker
 

Espio

Kokomo
Lead Moderator
is the ex roll on block safe and can normal roll be done on reaction to iceball? what are his fastest combo starters?

the main thing is that sub can outurtle stryker

Ex roll is safe on block(he's at a slight disadvantage) and yes regular roll can be done on reaction to iceball and is pretty effective.

10 and 16 are some of the faster ones, but his big damage comes for the 16 frame one.

I've played Sgt Reed and several other competent Sub players some time ago in the match up, I usually do pretty solid.

On the turtling thing, it depends on lifelead, but I wouldn't argue that either way.