What's new

Sub-Zero Match-up discussion

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
i do think a good robin is a tough mu but remember that throw clone does a lot of dmg for very little resources. (132 on robin). they cannot eat many of these and i've found success in certain spaces in neutral with clone out and f3 pressure. when robins get over confident with birdarang, if clone is out and the spacing is right it's very easy to throw clone and hit him on reaction. i actually try to play in a range specifically to do this and i use a lot of meter on mb f3. it creates a weird space for robin where he becomes scared to use projectiles because he eats clone throws even from relatively far away, but he is hesitant to engage because of threat of mb f3 or sweep when he does. he's like scarecrow to me in that at first i thought theres every reason he would dominate the neutral vs sub but in reality it doesn't really need to play out that way if you are careful with spacing.

where the mu gets hard imo is when robins start to get a pressure train going. that's when the relevance of his normals through clone and his range in general becomes an issue because you are forced to play defensive, which isn't what sub wants to do.
Sub does want to play defensive, he is mainly a defensive character that can be played offensively, so you do wanna get him close to catch him with the Klone. It's all about stop aggressive play, like I said earlier. You do have a good point regarding the Birdarang though.
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
Sub does want to play defensive, he is mainly a defensive character that can be played offensively, so you do wanna get him close to catch him with the Klone. It's all about stop aggressive play, like I said earlier. You do have a good point regarding the Birdarang though.
idk we must have different definitions of aggressive then. i absolutely don't believe that you will consistently beat good players if you are only playing sub to "stop their aggression". his ability to be safe or + off essentially any string via mb burst and the ability to cancel to clone followed with forward advancing lows or the best f3 in the game (which allows for free f22 xx clone off on block most of the time) are extremely good pressure tools and they are very usable in many situations. if you're not pressuring with sub you're not taking advantage of these tools and there's no reason not to.

to me the key is patience within his pressure which could maybe be seen by some as defensive play but to me is just playing patiently aggressive which is something sub actually has the ability to do. this is all completely mu dependent as well and everything can change depending.
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
i do think a good robin is a tough mu but remember that throw clone does a lot of dmg for very little resources...
i happened to literally just play a robin that gave me a perfect example of the spacing i'm talking about
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
idk we must have different definitions of aggressive then. i absolutely don't believe that you will consistently beat good players if you are only playing sub to "stop their aggression". his ability to be safe or + off essentially any string via mb burst and the ability to cancel to clone followed with forward advancing lows or the best f3 in the game (which allows for free f22 xx clone off on block most of the time) are extremely good pressure tools and they are very usable in many situations. if you're not pressuring with sub you're not taking advantage of these tools and there's no reason not to.

to me the key is patience within his pressure which could maybe be seen by some as defensive play but to me is just playing patiently aggressive which is something sub actually has the ability to do. this is all completely mu dependent as well and everything can change depending.
i happened to literally just play a robin that gave me a perfect example of the spacing i'm talking about
I didn't say you should play Sub on a defensive role only, what I did say was that his MAINLY a defensive character that go offensively as well. And yes, as such, you should go to his pressure with Klone and MB Ice Burst while you can, as well as his left/right 50/50 mixups, but his main gameplan is to be defensive and play Anti-Rushdown, it's just that he can be more offensive when he needs to.

As for Robin specifically, yes your approach to Robin is correct and I myself go to that approach when I face similar characters, but you can't use that approach the whole time, and if Robin does come to you, Sub has the tools to stop Robin's offense or make him go away, in fact the Robin and your video does just that.
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
but his main gameplan is to be defensive and play Anti-Rushdown
you're saying it like it's fact but i just don't see it that way. maybe we are just defining similar things in different ways, idk. i would say that i've had a lot of success playing sub my way, but ultimately that's anecdotal. the most successful sub so far in tournaments is buffalo and i absolutely would not characterize his style of sub as "defensive / anti rushdown".
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
you're saying it like it's fact but i just don't see it that way. maybe we are just defining similar things in different ways, idk. i would say that i've had a lot of success playing sub my way, but ultimately that's anecdotal. the most successful sub so far in tournaments is buffalo and i absolutely would not characterize his style of sub as "defensive / anti rushdown".
Buffalo does play Sub in his offense style to the fullest, and yes he is the most successful Sub-Zero, no doubt, but that doesn't mean that's the only way to play Sub. If a character can be played either offensively or defensively, that means a player can pick the style he wants to play for that char. However, even in Buffalo's style, which is indeed super offensive, you can still see glimps of the defensive side of Sub-Zero, as he tries to control the pace of match. And yes, pace control can be a part of offense, but it can be a part of defense as well, and you need to mix between the two at least a tiny bit, even if you prefer only either offense or defense. I for one love that aspect of Sub-Zero about controlling the pace of the match, and that's the main thing I go for when I play Sub, but I also try to mix between all of his tools, as he is pretty well-rounded, and I got good results with it so far.

Also I'm not try to force anything, sorry if it sounded like that.
 
Last edited:

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
I’m surprised you guys aren’t talking about Poison Ivy. That matchup is aids imo. I feel pretty good against everyone but Wonder Woman, Poison Ivy, and Batman (not saying those are the only ones he loses). I just need to get better and I feel like I can fight anyone but those 3.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Oh yeah, Wonder Woman is an absolute night mare... how can a lasso and shield be so oppressive? Haven't played any good Ivy's lately nor many Batman's since his Nerf.
Yeah, funny how everyone is scared of a lasso and a shield over a literal sword.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Oh yeah, Wonder Woman is an absolute night mare... how can a lasso and shield be so oppressive? Haven't played any good Ivy's lately nor many Batman's since his Nerf.
Ivy zones Sub hard. Most zoning isn’t hard to get in on because of Sub’s godlike forward dash, MB iceball and sliding under projectiles. You can’t use MB iceball because the drills don’t travel the screen, they track. Nor can you slide under them because, once again they don’t travel across the screen. Sub is gonna take a lot of chip if she has her trait out. All she has to look out for is slide in his zoning, and it’s not worth the risk of using to get in. Ivy’s ground game is also really solid. Clone is damn near useless with a lot of her attacks going through it, including her B3. It’s even awkward keeping her in the corner because of it. I don’t wanna say it’s 3-7 yet because I can recognize I’m not amazing in the MU and because Ivy can’t AA and Sub has some fucked up jump ins. He can still win. It’s not like you’re fighting pre patch D’Vorah or something. But it’s still aids imo.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
So F22 xx burst connects on Gorilla Grodd midscreen. I’m not sure what you guys are supposed to do with this but nobody plays Gorilla Grodd so I thought I’d just throw it out there.