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Sub-Zero Match-up discussion

SaucyD0ge

Worst european batman
Need help against red hood and green arrow. How do you even play that MU I have I go through that obstacle course of bullets and arrows then I have when I get close it's a non stop barrage of string from red hood. Any advice?
Red Hood out-neutrals Sub Zero with safe mine set-ups against iceklone.The only way you win against Red Hood is knocking him down for good in the corner.And after that you spam klone, f3 and the usual Sub Zero corner abuse.
 

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
Deadshot sub is not a 5-5, and whoever deadshot made any sub think that is not good at the match, period.

That match is a 6-4
 

JBeezYBabY

Mr. Righteous
Any tips for Scarecrow?

I feel it should be easier than what I'm playing it at the moment.
ALL DEFENSE! Scarecrow's b3 will punish your ass through the ice clone setups, so you have to heavily read Crow. Always keep a good distance until Crow starts jumping in on you, then you can set up ice clone to trap n punish him. Actually played a good one last night and bested out of 3 matches :)

Through personal experience....Wonder Woman is a fucking nightmare! Ice clone literally does shit against her because shes a more defensive character than Sub. So you kinda have to either keep your distance and strike with the slide at the right time to get in on her, or keep your distance with the ice blast to make her come to you. Im still trying to find a way to open her up, but for the most part, Sub is at a major disadvantage. WoWo's space game is too strong.
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
Any tips for Scarecrow?

I feel it should be easier than what I'm playing it at the moment.
in general you can control certain spaces in neutral vs scarecrow. i remember thinking crow was a horrible mu for sub awhile ago, but that's not the case anymore. there's a range where neither f1 or f2 are good options for him, which is where i have found success playing. it's just outside his sweep range as well. f3 behind clone can be a deterrent to him for advancing or trying to move in to sweep.

once you establish a life lead in this range, crow runs out of options because ultimately he has to get in. in learning it, my advice is when you play against crows, try and find the range close enough to threaten him with f3 behind clone if he tries to advance, and let your offense initiate off that range. you can't just f3 randomly or youll get punished, but you need to establish that as a threat if he tries to move in because it has a giant range, but still keeps you safe behind clone. when he begins to get impatient it will allow for openings, and your offense can initiate off that range. one of the strengths of sub is being able to play extremely defensively and then switch on a dime to 123 xx burst or f22 xx burst or w/e from behind clone and go full rushdown with + frames.
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
Through personal experience....Wonder Woman is a fucking nightmare! Ice clone literally does shit against her because shes a more defensive character than Sub. So you kinda have to either keep your distance and strike with the slide at the right time to get in on her, or keep your distance with the ice blast to make her come to you. Im still trying to find a way to open her up, but for the most part, Sub is at a major disadvantage. WoWo's space game is too strong.
i think this or aquaman is sub's worst mu. i don't see many aquamans anymore tho, so my experience is limited. with ww, there's a space where you can get clone out just outside of her shield toss range. if you bait her to whiff shield toss, you can slide in which gives you an opening. if she jumps to air shield toss, clone throw will hit her. but honestly, i'm not sure this mu is worth playing and it's only one of two mu's i still feel that way about with sub.
 

SaucyD0ge

Worst european batman
i think this or aquaman is sub's worst mu. i don't see many aquamans anymore tho, so my experience is limited. with ww, there's a space where you can get clone out just outside of her shield toss range. if you bait her to whiff shield toss, you can slide in which gives you an opening. if she jumps to air shield toss, clone throw will hit her. but honestly, i'm not sure this mu is worth playing and it's only one of two mu's i still feel that way about with sub.
Aquaman doesn’t get that easily out of the corner.WoWo is better as a Sub-Zero counter.
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
Aquaman doesn’t get that easily out of the corner.WoWo is better as a Sub-Zero counter.
yes, but in other mu's i previously thought were bad (batman for ex.), i've found that by adjusting the space i was playing at and my goals within that space, i am able to gain control in the neutral that i didn't think was possible for sub. that's not the case with aquaman, and mid screen i don't believe there is a range at which sub can gain control. ww on the other hand has no options full screen, and i have developed a game plan based around that (although it is a shit mu and i don't want to play it). again, this not the case with aquaman, and slide to punish ftd is no good at most ranges. ultimately ww is going to have to close the distance at some point, which is something at least, but aquaman is quite happy take whatever space you give him.

"winning in the corner" is not a reliable gameplan in and of itself, although it has to be a component of any successful gameplan with sub. ww and aqua present the two biggest challenges i have encountered outside of the corner. i don't find ww to be any major issue in the corner either.

i personally believe that once they are cornered vs sub, what character the opponent plays almost doesn't matter anymore. with one hkd, i now have setups that simply beat every option. and honestly, i think sub is quite good because getting the opponent to the corner (after months of work) has now become a process for me with most of the cast. difficult mu's now revolve around characters that neutralize the many tools that sub has, and there are not many characters that can do that reliably.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
yes, but in other mu's i previously thought were bad (batman for ex.), i've found that by adjusting the space i was playing at and my goals within that space, i am able to gain control in the neutral that i didn't think was possible for sub. that's not the case with aquaman, and mid screen i don't believe there is a range at which sub can gain control. ww on the other hand has no options full screen, and i have developed a game plan based around that (although it is a shit mu and i don't want to play it). again, this not the case with aquaman, and slide to punish ftd is no good at most ranges. ultimately ww is going to have to close the distance at some point, which is something at least, but aquaman is quite happy take whatever space you give him.

"winning in the corner" is not a reliable gameplan in and of itself, although it has to be a component of any successful gameplan with sub. ww and aqua present the two biggest challenges i have encountered outside of the corner. i don't find ww to be any major issue in the corner either.

i personally believe that once they are cornered vs sub, what character the opponent plays almost doesn't matter anymore. with one hkd, i now have setups that simply beat every option. and honestly, i think sub is quite good because getting the opponent to the corner (after months of work) has now become a process for me with most of the cast. difficult mu's now revolve around characters that neutralize the many tools that sub has, and there are not many characters that can do that reliably.
Can you please tell which characters can do such?
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
Can you please tell which characters can do such?
first thing that i look at is if they have a way around clone, and if that way is meterless or if it requires resources. ww, for example, has a multiple ways to hit sub through clone that don't require meter, whereas green lantern can shoot through it but he has to spend a bar. often that's not worth it for gl. scarecrow has normals to reach through it, but if you space yourself right they are often not real options for him, whereas catwoman can use db3 or j2 with less risk. brainiac i see as a big issue for this reason as well. there is a giant difference between a so-so brainiac and a really good one, maybe the biggest skill gap in the game imo. good ones will always neutralize clone with his high trait shot, which means you won't be able to rely on cloning defensively when he approaches from the air. he's not great when cornered, but no one is great when cornered vs sub and a good brainiac isn't easy to force anywhere.

back to clone, many characters don't have a way around clone at all, and the fact that sub can hide behind clone is huge. this means anyone with a ftd move (aquaman) is a factor. obviously that doesn't mean ftd moves = bad matchup, but it neutralizes a part of the mind game mid screen when clone comes into play.

the next thing i look at is how slide will affect a matchup. in some cases, like w/ fate, slide and mb ice ball are huge because his projectile options are actually somewhat limited (good mu for sub), whereas vs arrow or a good deadshot (who is utilizing trick shot instead of wrist cannon/low shot spam), slide is not as impactful. arrow is hard to me. deadshot i see as either 5-5 or a debatable 4-6 for sub. slide is also less affective vs superman, which is a mu i personally dislike although i'm not convinced it's bad for sub.

one thing i see a lot of people saying that "so-and-so is bad in the corner, so it's a good mu for sub". corner talk is no longer relevant as far as i'm concerned, because imo sub's corner game is so strong that if you're doing it right you shouldn't be eating wakeups, no matter how good the wakeup is. who the opponent plays is just not that big of a deal because it's all the same- they can either do risky things to try to get out which will likely not work, or they can block and eat throws or w/e you want to do.

sub is consistently underestimated for some reason, but i have always maintained that the tools he has are by themselves very strong. there's no equivalent in this game to sub's slide (gap closer, wakeup, and offensive move that hits low and knocks into clone), just like there's no equivalent to mb ice ball (clears all projectiles on screen and freezes on hit to punish bad zoning), and of course the clone. if he was unplayably bad mid screen then he would be low tier, but he's not unplayably bad mid screen and in the corner, well you get the point.
 

JBeezYBabY

Mr. Righteous
I'm actually on the cusp of putting this game to rest until HellBoy comes out, unless I find a good Sub Zero to spar against. I need practice, and even playing with ppl is no longer fun for me getting my ass kicked. So if anybody can help on some pointers sparring as a Sub Zero main to help me get better in match-ups, id greatly appreciate it.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
first thing that i look at is if they have a way around clone, and if that way is meterless or if it requires resources. ww, for example, has a multiple ways to hit sub through clone that don't require meter, whereas green lantern can shoot through it but he has to spend a bar. often that's not worth it for gl. scarecrow has normals to reach through it, but if you space yourself right they are often not real options for him, whereas catwoman can use db3 or j2 with less risk. brainiac i see as a big issue for this reason as well. there is a giant difference between a so-so brainiac and a really good one, maybe the biggest skill gap in the game imo. good ones will always neutralize clone with his high trait shot, which means you won't be able to rely on cloning defensively when he approaches from the air. he's not great when cornered, but no one is great when cornered vs sub and a good brainiac isn't easy to force anywhere.

back to clone, many characters don't have a way around clone at all, and the fact that sub can hide behind clone is huge. this means anyone with a ftd move (aquaman) is a factor. obviously that doesn't mean ftd moves = bad matchup, but it neutralizes a part of the mind game mid screen when clone comes into play.

the next thing i look at is how slide will affect a matchup. in some cases, like w/ fate, slide and mb ice ball are huge because his projectile options are actually somewhat limited (good mu for sub), whereas vs arrow or a good deadshot (who is utilizing trick shot instead of wrist cannon/low shot spam), slide is not as impactful. arrow is hard to me. deadshot i see as either 5-5 or a debatable 4-6 for sub. slide is also less affective vs superman, which is a mu i personally dislike although i'm not convinced it's bad for sub.

one thing i see a lot of people saying that "so-and-so is bad in the corner, so it's a good mu for sub". corner talk is no longer relevant as far as i'm concerned, because imo sub's corner game is so strong that if you're doing it right you shouldn't be eating wakeups, no matter how good the wakeup is. who the opponent plays is just not that big of a deal because it's all the same- they can either do risky things to try to get out which will likely not work, or they can block and eat throws or w/e you want to do.

sub is consistently underestimated for some reason, but i have always maintained that the tools he has are by themselves very strong. there's no equivalent in this game to sub's slide (gap closer, wakeup, and offensive move that hits low and knocks into clone), just like there's no equivalent to mb ice ball (clears all projectiles on screen and freezes on hit to punish bad zoning), and of course the clone. if he was unplayably bad mid screen then he would be low tier, but he's not unplayably bad mid screen and in the corner, well you get the point.
Thanks for the info bro, and you are right Sub-Zero is underestimated.
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
I'm actually on the cusp of putting this game to rest until HellBoy comes out, unless I find a good Sub Zero to spar against. I need practice, and even playing with ppl is no longer fun for me getting my ass kicked. So if anybody can help on some pointers sparring as a Sub Zero main to help me get better in match-ups, id greatly appreciate it.
what are the mu's youre having the most trouble with?
 

hatyr

tease out the impurities
Premium Supporter
What are people's thoughts about the Starfire and Grodd matchups? Any advice?

I feel like I always lose the A2A game against Grodd (probably late reactions from me) but he just couldn't give any less shits about clones between his projectile immunity buff and just armoring right through them.

Starfire is just obnoxious, just feel like I'm playing the matchup wrong. I'm guessing just pressure, pressure, pressure in this one?

Any specific tips for these two?
 
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JBeezYBabY

Mr. Righteous
What are people's thoughts about the Starfire and Grodd matchups? Any advice?

I feel like I always lose the A2A game against Grodd (probably late reactions from me) but he just couldn't give any less shits about clone between his projectile immunity buff and just armoring right through them.

Starfire is just obnoxious, just feel like I'm playing the matchup wrong. I'm guessing just pressure, pressure, pressure i this one?

Any specific tips for these two?
VS GRODD - Your reaction game has to be on POINT! Because remember, he can summon the trait where projectiles are useless, so more than likely he will leap toward you. Immediately, you have to be alert. The best AA is J3. Its damaging and quick.

VS STARFIRE - Low profile EVERYTHING! Her trait can be low profiled, however, her mb trait can fake you out by still hitting you at the last hit. Your slide will be very useful to close in on her. Sub works best close range against her. Once you're in, you start playing those mind games with down poking D3, 111~ IceBall mb, etc etc. Its indeed obnoxious, but it once you're in, you're IN! Hope that helps ;)
 
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hatyr

tease out the impurities
Premium Supporter
VS GRODD - Your reaction game has to be on POINT! Because remember, he can summon the trait where projectiles are useless, so more than likely he will leap toward you. Immediately, you have to be alert. The best AA is J3. Its the damaging and quick.

VS STARFIRE - Low profile EVERYTHING! Her trait can be low profiled, however, her mb trait can fake you out by still hitting you at the last hit. Your slide will be very useful to close in on her. Sub works best close range against her. Once you're in, you start playing those mind games with down poking D3, 111~ IceBall mb, etc etc. Its indeed obnoxious, but it once you're in, you're IN! Hope that helps ;)
Points me in the right direction for sure. Thanks, dude. You still investing in Sub-Zero?
 

JBeezYBabY

Mr. Righteous
Points me in the right direction for sure. Thanks, dude. You still investing in Sub-Zero?
Np! Hmmmm....*thinks*....Yes and no. I mean, i damn near got all the shaders for him, so i dont wanna drop him completely. My main focus right now is Hellboy to see if i really want to stay with him. Im all over the place for characters lol

The only person who truly has my heart is Harley Queen. Until then, im dibbin' and dabbin' with other characters ;)
 

hatyr

tease out the impurities
Premium Supporter
Np! Hmmmm....*thinks*....Yes and no. I mean, i damn near got all the shaders for him, so i dont wanna drop him completely. My main focus right now is Hellboy to see if i really want to stay with him. Im all over the place for characters lol

The only person who truly has my heart is Harley Queen. Until then, im dibbin' and dabbin' with other characters ;)
I dabble a lot too. Perpetual character crisis. But having too much fun with SZ lately, even if I lose. I'm sure it will get old but he's a blast to play.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
I'd say robin probably wins 6-4, Sub doesn't really zone out robin and a lot of robins normals beat clone, including his D3 and D2 I believe. Once robin gets going sub has to eat the pressure since his wakeup is massively unsafe and robin kind of thrives on those sorts of characters.

Not 100% sure but I imagine robin can do birdarang at fullscreen on prediction of either clone or an ice-ball and not get punished for it.
 
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Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Played a good Robin the other night it was surprisingly overwhelming.
Yeah pressuring him in the corner is also kind of risky if he does wake-up DB2 which has no invisibility but is 9 frames and goes through clone AND launches (If spaced correctly, too close and he'll get frozen instead)

Feelsbadman
 
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Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
I'd say robin probably wins 6-4, Sub doesn't really zone out robin and a lot of robins normals beat clone, including his D3 and D2 I believe. Once robin gets going sub has to eat the pressure since his wakeup is massively unsafe and robin kind of thrives on those sorts of characters.

Not 100% sure but I imagine robin can do birdarang at fullscreen on prediction of either clone or an ice-ball and not get punished for it.
I faced a Robin player last weekend, and from what I've seen Sub can ruin the Birdarang from full screen due to it's really slow animation, in fact it seems every character can out-zone that move as long as that character has some kind of Zoning. But speaking of which, you're not supposed to go for Zoning with Sub for too long regardless, he isn't really a Zoning char. You should keep switching between full-screen and close up tactics during each match for the pace control, as the whole point of the Klone is for the opponent get frozen by it so you can go for a full combo. As for the Klone against Robin, it seems Robin's B3 is actually not good against the Klone due to ti's animation, so here is one normal that Robin can't use against the Klone. So once again, keep switching between between the offense and defense and you should be fine.
 
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Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
I faced a Robin player last weekend, and from what I've seen Sub can ruin the Birdarang from full screen due to it's really slow animation, in fact it seems every character can out-zone that move as long as that character has some kind of Zoning. But speaking of which, you're not supposed to go for Zoning with Sub for too long regardless, he isn't really a Zoning char. You should keep switching between full-screen and close up tactics during each match for the pace control, as the whole point of the Klone is for the opponent get frozen by it so you can go for a full combo. As for the Klone against Robin, it seems Robin's B3 is actually not good against the Klone due to ti's animation, so here is one normal that Robin can't use against the Klone. So once again, keep switching between between the offense and defense and you should be fine.
Yeah I meant more you can go for birdarang on read of a clone or an ice ball and recover in time to block an ice ball, which is pretty good for robin in any situation since it gives him a lot of freedom to do what he wants.

I also see what the clone is for but I don't really see robins' getting frozen by it unless they are playing really aggressively which is generally a bad idea against sub in general I've found.

Also speaking from Robin players view here.
 
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Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Yeah I meant more you can go for birdarang on read of a clone or an ice ball and recover in time to block an ice ball, which is pretty good for robin in any situation since it gives him a lot of freedom to do what he wants.

I also see what the clone is for but I don't really see robins' getting frozen by it unless they are playing really aggressively which is generally a bad idea against sub in general I've found.

Also speaking from Robin players view here.
Of course Robin can't go too aggressively, that's the first point about the Klone, to stop aggressive play from the opponent. Even if Robin has some normals that can go through the Klone, he can't be too aggressive when the Klone is out or when the cool down for it is over.

As for the Birdarang, yes on a read it can be done.
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
Sub doesn't really zone out robin
i do think a good robin is a tough mu but remember that throw clone does a lot of dmg for very little resources. (132 on robin). they cannot eat many of these and i've found success in certain spaces in neutral with clone out and f3 pressure. when robins get over confident with birdarang, if clone is out and the spacing is right it's very easy to throw clone and hit him on reaction. i actually try to play in a range specifically to do this and i use a lot of meter on mb f3. it creates a weird space for robin where he becomes scared to use projectiles because he eats clone throws even from relatively far away, but he is hesitant to engage because of threat of mb f3 or sweep when he does. he's like scarecrow to me in that at first i thought theres every reason he would dominate the neutral vs sub but in reality it doesn't really need to play out that way if you are careful with spacing.

where the mu gets hard imo is when robins start to get a pressure train going. that's when the relevance of his normals through clone and his range in general becomes an issue because you are forced to play defensive, which isn't what sub wants to do.