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Match-up Discussion Sub-Zero Guide Feedback

Thanks a lot for the input. I figured out the timing. I kept trying to do it right after the ice dagger struck like one of the previous posters mentioned but realized that for the way my mind works it's easier for me to wait to see them hit the ground after the ice dagger hits. Then they bounce back up and get hit by the 2 that starts the 212 then slide.

I guess my big question now is... the 22, freeze, 214, slide does 29% as opposed to 31% with the slightly longer one that has the NJP into b12, 212 slide (31% and 35% respectively with enh. Slide.) But the first is much easier to do and has 3 fewer hits to have someone breaker you on so is the first one I listed not really used competetively or is it something people just switch up every so often when they feel like it?
One less tangible thing to consider is that the neutral jump juggle pushes them much farther to the corner. Also, often if you're kinda near the corner you can end with 214 slide for better damage.

The combo really isn't that hard once you practice, I get it like 95% consistently and I've only been playing for a week. You just need to practice it for 2 hours in training mode and you'll never drop it again. His corner juggle is basically an extended midscreen juggle anyway and you need to learn his corner juggle because it's 39% damage meterless.

Also, the difference in combo damage is greater off a raw ice ball or a f+4 ice ball than it is off a 2 2 ice ball.

Actually the first one is used more competitively, but with a JPS tacked on at the beginning. So 2,2,freeze,JPS,2,1,4,slide. Thats a basic BnB for Subby.
This doesn't do more damage than the full juggle does it?
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
This doesn't do more damage than the full juggle does it?
It does like 1% less, but because you can end it with 2,1,4,slide instead of 2,1,2,slide the opponent gets pushed much farther towards the corner.(Because of the roundhouse) And cornered opponents make Subby happy.
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
What does JPS in the notation mean? I know JP is just a diagonal jump punch normally but not sure what it means with the S tacked on.
Starter. It means Jump Punch starter. You can jump in with a punch and tack it on to the beginning of any chain. This is different than a NJP which bounces the opponent up
 
Okay so with all the practice that I've had after this great advice I've mastered the 2 bnb combo's that I've been asking about here =P

I tested in training mode and as far as I can tell the NJP dash b1,2, 2,1,2~slide actually pushes the opponent just barely (almost negligible) more towards the corner than the one with the JPS 2,1,4~slide. Not sure if it's been patched or what, because also the damage for both is identical at 32% when started with 2,2~freeze.

The way I've been working it recently is if they're closer to the corner use the NJP bnb combo and if they teleport out of the corner leaving me in there I've been using the JPS by crossing them up and then knocking them back in. I also have found the JPS combo better when trading projectiles with someone since usually that means that you have almost no time to get in and start up the NJP combo.

edit: Also wanted to ask because it's the corner combo I've been using but is 2,2,4~freeze 2,1,4~slide a bad setup? It does 35% but it's extremely easy and quick. Replacing the slide with X-ray puts it up to 51%. I've been using it on people that don't block the 2,2,4 because then the freeze hits in the corner and if they do block it I try and clone instead of freezing. It's pretty easy to switch it up in the middle on reaction to what they do about it.
 

THTB

When's Syzoth?
Is it me, or can Sub get a free throw attempt after a 214 xx slide? I was playing vs a Sub and he would 214 xx slide, and be able to dash and throw. I had to break. Jumping did not work.
 
edit: Also wanted to ask because it's the corner combo I've been using but is 2,2,4~freeze 2,1,4~slide a bad setup? It does 35% but it's extremely easy and quick.
Yes, you can get over 40% in the corner easily with 22 freeze njp x2 b12 214 slide. 22 is good because you don't HAVE to cancel into clone. You can do 22 throw, 22 sweep, 22 crossup, 22 wait 22, 22 d2 dash throw, etcetera. It gives you an up-close pressure game.
 

PwnStar

Noob
At pdp I was having huge issues with spacing characters. I couldn't win the match up because freeze ball is too slow and slide it unsafe and will only go under some projectiles. Noob, Shang, Cyrex, Raiden, Kabal, were very difficult matches. I'm also pretty sure run away Smoke and Reptile would be a huge issue as well. What do you do in these matchups? They gain so much meter from me trying to patiently get in and if I do manage to get through and start a combo I get breaker'ed and have to keep trying it. It's also hard to press the advantage once I have it.

how do you beat these?
 

Hates

Noob
That varies a lot match to match. Against Raiden, for example, you probably want to put YOURSELF in the corner and hide behind clones to take away his teleport threat, etc. Generally, though, I find that it's difficult for zoners to keep you out if you are disciplined in your dash blocking. Keep advancing, cutting down the size of the screen, and eventually aim for putting your opponent near the corner and keeping them there with the threat of 22. Clones are less useful against characters like a dedicated zoning Smoke who can't really compete with Sub's up-close game, but they still have some utility.

The main thing is that controlled dash blocking doesn't have to be slow. You can advance pretty quickly and menacingly in most situations, at which point your positional advantage should net you a combo starter. If your opponent breaks you, all the better--you're forcing him to blow meter on things that aren't giving him damage, and Sub Zero has the tools to keep people in disadvantageous positions if you can make decent reads.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
At pdp I was having huge issues with spacing characters. I couldn't win the match up because freeze ball is too slow and slide it unsafe and will only go under some projectiles. Noob, Shang, Cyrex, Raiden, Kabal, were very difficult matches. I'm also pretty sure run away Smoke and Reptile would be a huge issue as well. What do you do in these matchups? They gain so much meter from me trying to patiently get in and if I do manage to get through and start a combo I get breaker'ed and have to keep trying it. It's also hard to press the advantage once I have it.

how do you beat these?
YOU MUST BE AGGRESSIVE!!!!!! Sub is no longer the "sit and freeze" character, he has a viable game toe-to-toe. Attempting to play zone vs zone against other characters will get you crushed. As Hates has mentioned (and others before) 22 is your friend, especially the 22 freeze. What you want to work on is the rushdown with dash block, and after landing a combo, noticing the wake-up attack the opponent is using, if any. For instance, Reptile mains will be very hasty in attempting to wake-up with a slide or elbow dash. Make sure that they don't do that ever again by dashing back and throwing out a clone after you finish a combo. They will run into that once or twice and then be forced to get up normally. This will leave you the chance to get in close and punish with the 22, mixing in throws as well as sweeps and low combos. Once you have them running scared with the Frozen Beast, punish them second after second. Force them to make the mistakes and make them decide their path to destruction. 9 times out of 10 they will give you a freeze-slide combo at least twice. Poke, prod, beat and, all jokes aside, piss them off to no end. Getting overly aggressive against Subby is dumb in itself; getting a temper against him is a guaranteed loss. Keep yourself in a "safe" position with Sub, but never cower, that will give you the quickest L in your life against a skilled opponent. That game is not for Sub; I would suggest Ermac, Noob, or Shang Tsung for that style. (No disrespect to the Ermacs, Noobs, and Tsungs; they don't cower, but they definitely aren't in your face.)

Ask yourself: how can I freeze this guy? 20 seconds in (max) you should have it figured out. You can then play a mix-up game, but using the same base principal that you found can get him frozen. Going back to the Reptile example, if you know that he will wake-up attack every time, throw a clone. When he notices that you will throw a clone every time, he will stop, resorting to blocking measures and counter attacks. Mix it up by stopping the clone throw after he is downed, simply dash back and jump. After a couple of times he will notice this and attempt to punish you on the jump with a wake-up. See that he is attempting a wake-up and as you are jumping back, throw a clone to punish him severely for trying that again. :hammer: This is a rough example, but you have SO MANY levels of Yomi with Sub, it's not even funny. Use that to your advantage to keep your opponent guessing, and frozen.

The characters that Sub has the most trouble with due to in-game matchups are Raiden and Nightwolf. Obviously, you can't keep Raiden in front of you, and Nightwolf WILL give you a hard time with the lightning strike. However, just ask yourself, if you are not aggressive against these guys in any case with any character choice, more than likely, you will be crushed. WE HAVE GOT TO REMEMBER AS DEDICATED SUB MAINS THAT YOU GOTTA SPEED IT UP WITH THIS BEAST BECAUSE THIS IS WHERE HE TURNS INTO SOMETHING SPECIAL. LET'S GET FROSTY!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:
 
I have literally no idea of how to beat Smoke. I can't throw ice balls because of his shake, and I don't get anything off of a projectile trade anyway. His teleport (not the punch) feels unpunishable, and I can punish Raiden's and Cyrax's teleports consistently. He can use jumping kick to start a combo with air throw -> OTG smoke bomb, which makes it very hard to anti-air him. He can spam teleport at full screen for meter and I can't punish it even on a guess. His up-close game seems surprisingly good with d1, his overhead -> smoke bomb, and strings that are even-ish. Once I get close I can hardly get any offense going because A)he'll always have meter for a breaker and B)his d1 is so good. Blockstringing into a clone hardly provides any advantage in this matchup because Smoke controls the ranged game soundly. Breaker is also not very useful against Smoke because his smoke bombs, air throw, and xray aren't breakable.

I have figured out that if you're dashing and Smoke is throwing a smoke bomb you can slide on reaction to punish.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
YOU MUST BE AGGRESSIVE!!!!!! Sub is no longer the "sit and freeze" character, he has a viable game toe-to-toe. Attempting to play zone vs zone against other characters will get you crushed.
From reading your post, my assumption is that you are sitting back and attempting to trade. I know that it may seem like this is all I say but I cannot stress this enough: aggressive, aggressive, aggressive. Let Smoke attempt to bomb you all day. It may build up meter, but it does 0 chip damage and a well-timed dash or slide will get him off of that really quick. Also, let him break if you do get close enough for a combo starter. The energy he expended building that meter up with bombs just went away and you can get even more aggressive. If he is coming into the match jumping into your Sub then you must work on the quick reaction with your ice clone. Don't be afraid to put those on the screen; they give you meter, have a fast recharge and, more importantly, they make your opponent think more than they have to. If he jumps in (especially with a kick) throw a clone and punish heavily. If he starts to get creative and decides to jump, bait, teleport, then bait him. For example, if you see him start to teleport more after you have punished him, instead of throwing a clone on the jump, take a step back and wait to block that teleport and punish. Another good bait would be when you have an opponent that air throws heavily. Take advantage of that by jumping into him and throwing a clone out.

If you sit back against Smoke, then I can definitely see where he can have match-up issues. That constant spam of bombs will shoot his meter up like none other. My opinion, you have a couple of things that you should work on. First, work on your close combat. Notice what happens when an opponent is attempting to strike you. Embed in your mind what a sweep looks like, what an overhead start looks like, and just what combos look like overall with all of the characters. This will allow you to see exactly what is coming at you (as far as low, medium, and high contact) and let you punish accordingly. Secondly, work on your STANDING block. If you are getting caught with that overhead, chances are you are in the turtle position TOO much. Yes, it is effective in some situations, but you will be dominated if you overuse this defensive tactic. Next, work on your dash blocking effectiveness. If you think it's fast enough, then make it faster. It never hurts to have the upper hand on the rushdown. That will put the fear in your opponent, instead of you sitting back in fear. Finally, work on the speed of your clone. Again, if you think it's fast enough, make it faster. To be able to pull that out in any and all situations to not only confuse but counter your opponent will make you a better Sub overall.

Once again, aggressive, aggressive, aggressive. Once you get to thinking TOO much, your opponent has you. Just get out there and react. You may get punished at first, but in the long run, you will learn the techniques that will let you get in close better and continually pound your opponents. Sub-Zero plays MUCH faster than you think! :youcantseeme:
 
Is there a reason using 2,1 outside of combos isn't advised in the guide? It's so easy to HC into the extensions for nice mixups. In the open, you can HC 2,1,2 so that if it's blocked, they get an Ice Clone right in their face, and if it hits you can freeze them in mid-air and get a mini-combo.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
The only way that I see that to be ineffective would be against a quick counter player. That ending 2 on the 2,1,2 is fairly slow, so I would assume that a quick teleport or something of the sort would counter that last hit. Don't quote me on that though because I don't know that for sure; it just seems a bit slow. Against any other opponent, however, I find that to be viable. The bait on that last hit if not connected is possible.

I think as far as the guide goes it is directed at the newer players that need safer strings at first before they realize what the character is actually capable of. Nice post though; I definitely need to add more of that to my game with the ice clone mixup.
 
Yeah, I thought it might be because it could be interrupted. But then you could just cancel the string after 2,1 anyway, either into Ice Clone (which forms right in their face, as opposed to after something like 2,2,4), or Slide. I guess I'll keep using it until I find a reason not to.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
I agree, however, watch out for those nasty little Raiden teleports. Ice clone will be pretty ineffective when he ends up behind you. Nice Raidens are pretty damn tough.
 
Alright, my friend and I did some frame advantage testing with Sub using the jump method and trying to punish with Johnny Cage's Shadow Kick and flip kick. b12 and 21 are even. 22 is around -2, which is still safe.

b121 is definitely punishable by quick specials. b124 is actually completely even on block, however. Both of these strings can be interrupted before the final hit, but if you do b12 and then a 2 you'll probably interrupt them yourself.

Naked 1, 3, 4, d4, and b4 are almost dead even on block. d3 is like -1. On block, d2 is even, but obviously if they're crouching it will whiff.

212, 214, and 224 are unsafe on block. Midscreen you can just cancel the third hit into a clone or slide to avoid the punish. In the corner, only 212 will actually create a clone. Some characters have a move that will punish you regardless of whether you actually made the clone or not. For example, Shang Tsung can Soul Steal/Xray you regardless of if you cancelled into clone. You could try to slide/freeze after the third hit in order to punish his punish, but that's obviously very risky.

Now here's the bad part... f4 is rather unsafe on block. Like, dash up combo unsafe. You can ice clone out of it on block, but if you're just trying to hit-confirm it so you can freeze them I don't know how feasible that is. Also, often when you're trying to hit someone with the overhead you already have a clone out. Because of this I have shifted my main overhead behind a clone to b12.

Also, Sub's d1 is VERY unsafe on block. Like, combo-able unsafe. Never use it over d4 or d3.

The main reasons why 22 is the dominant string with Sub Zero is not just because it's safe on block. The second hit has a huge hitbox - most of the ice sword that comes out can actually hit the opponent. Because of this, it's also fairly safe to whiff. You can poke with 22 at max range and if they walk into your ice sword you can freeze them and get a combo. If you get the opponent in the corner, often there's little they can do about a max range 22 besides block. You can often do this like 3 times in a row because of spacing and having a clone out. They can't do much besides block and eat the chip while giving you meter, unless they want to try a random xray or armored move. It will be unsafe on block too usually because they will get hit by the clone. If they get hit at all you can get a freeze into a 40% corner combo. If they try to jump out usually the 22 will catch them anyway. After this you can freeze and try to go for a whiff (b1)2, 212 slide combo.

This next tidbit is a universal MK9 piece of advice, but it's rather important for Sub because his uppercut isn't good against crossups and you can't anti-air ice clone up close. If the opponent is doing a blockstring into a crossup, your best counter is a neutral jump punch. You will get a full combo off it and you will almost always beat them out.
 
Hey Tom saw the show yesterday and decided to play around with Sub. I was doing the mid-screen xray combo: jump-in punch 2,2, iceball, jump-in punch, 2, 1, 4, x-ray. I did not do the second jump in punch fast enough so it did not completely combo; however, i got 50%. Once testing it I realize if you do just jump-in punch, 2, 1, 4, x-ray, you get 50%. May be because of damage scaling or something else. Is there any reason you did not show this combo in the show?
 
If you just jump in punch 214 xray they can block the whole thing and you won't get damage. If you see they blocked then you can stop from doing the xray but 214 on block is not so great.

JIP 22 freeze though you can change up to 224 ice clone on block and 22 is super safe so in general I don't think people will go for the raw JIP 214~xray seeing as it's too easy blocked/punished (especially since they're both easy and do the same damage so why not just play the safer situation?)
 
Is it me, or can Sub get a free throw attempt after a 214 xx slide? I was playing vs a Sub and he would 214 xx slide, and be able to dash and throw. I had to break. Jumping did not work.
So I'm sure most have figured out but laying down or doing a wakeup attack will prevent this. Haven't tested all the wakeup attacks but pretty much all the wakeups the computer will do in training mode with all the characters I've messed with will hit you and prevent the throw. Not sure ever character as I generally just randomly pick characters so I can practice avoiding their wakeups.

I also wanted to ask if the refreeze still works. It does in training mode but not sure if that's just because the way training mode is setup or perhaps it's a glitch in training mode like some other things. Just curious because I got the timing down for it today and it's like 40% plus off a 22~freeze, b+2 dash 214~slide and I know a lot of the guys I play with won't do crap about it other than get hit and taken out after a couple of combos.

If it does still work can you be knocked out of it (the b+2) and if so by what/who?

Edit: sure most knew but I did mean the fully charged b+2