Match-up Discussion Sub-Zero Guide Feedback

[Tom Brady]

SUB-ZERO:

BEST NORMALS:
*HIT LEVEL:M,M - safe 2 hit string.

*HIT LEVEL:M,M,M - 3 hit string.

*+HIT LEVEL:H,M(overhead) - safe 2 hit string. used only in combos or as a punisher.

*+HIT LEVEL:M(overhead) - safe overhead. must be blocked in stand block.

*+HIT LEVEL: L - safe sweep.

*+HIT LEVEL:M - mid palm. can be charged for an unblockable that will freeze.


SPECIALS:
*Ice Blastd+)HIT LEVEL:H - freezes the opponent granting a combo. unsafe at close ranges.

*Ice Cloned+)HIT LEVEL:N/A - if the opponent touches the clone they will be frozen. Clone is blockable. if clone is read can be punished by certain attacks.

*Ice Puddled+)HIT LEVEL:Unblockable - opponent gets stuck and and Sub-Zero gets a free combo. very easy to jump on reaction and punish.

*Slidel++)HIT LEVEL: L - low advancing slide. punished by full combo on block.

:en MOVES:
*:en Ice Blastd++)HIT LEVEL:H - shoots an ice stream. very unsafe. the opponent is frozen for much longer if they are hit wile grounded.

*:en Ice Cloned++)HIT LEVEL:N/A - stays on screen longer then standard close.

*:en Ice Puddled++)HIT LEVEL:Unblockable - reaches full screen. opponent gets stuck and and Sub-Zero gets a free combo. very easy to jump on reaction.

*:en Slidel++)HIT LEVEL: L - faster then standard low advancing slide. on hit knocks the opponent backwards. does more damage. punished by full combo on block.


STRATEGY:

String:
this is the ONLY string you use.. EVER. you can pressure with and if it hits, you can confirm the hit and link in ice blast. if its blocked finish the string. you can cancel the last hit of this string with an ice clone or slide.

Sweep and +:
there is no reason to duck Sub-Zero in open space damage wise. however some people are just stupid and do it anyway. punish them with +~ice blast. when they start taking the sweep, they have to tech back to avoid wake up, and rolling back pushes them closer to the corner.

Spacing:
the object here is to keep the opponent in front of you and move them toward the corner. this is where you use the ice clone. use it like a shield to make sure no one crosses over a certain point of the screen. this allows you to cut off the screen while you advance.

Corners:
when the opponent is cornered use the clone to keep them trapped. set the clone up just outside of the corner then come in and pressure.

Anti Air:
uppercut, ice clone, or ~ice blast.

Slide:
when opponents jump back, slide is 99% guaranteed. then can place a kick at their lowest point but this is VERY rare. if you clone, you can :en slide and if it hits the opponent will be knocked backward back into the cone and you will get a juggle.

Wake Up Attack:
slide is invincible on start up when done as a "wake up attack".

Sub-Zero's :
a non charged has no armor. by charging, will now have armor when you release it.


COMBOS

STANDARD COMBOS:
1. AA or grounded ice clone, NJ/, dash +, ~slide

2. AA ~ice blast, l+), ~slide

3. ~ice blast, NJ/, dash +, ~slide

4. ~ice blast, jump in /~~slide

5. +~ice blast, jump in /~~slide

6. +~ice blast, NJ/, dash +, ~slide

7. +~ice blast, jump in /~~slide

8. +~ice blast, NJ/, dash +, ~slide

9. :en slide into ice clone placed behind you, dash l+), ~slide

10. (opponent in corner) ~ice blast, NJ/, NJ/, +, ~slide

11. (opponent in corner) +~ice blast, NJ/, NJ/, +, ~slide

12. (opponent in corner) +~ice blast, NJ/, NJ/, +, ~slide


COMBOS:
1. AA or grounded ice clone, NJ/, dash +, dash ~

2. AA ~ice blast, l+), dash ~

3. ~ice blast, NJ/, dash +, dash ~

4. ~ice blast, jump in /~~

5. +~ice blast, NJ/, dash +, dash ~

6. +~ice blast, jump in /~~

7. +~ice blast, NJ/, dash +, dash ~

8. +~ice blast, jump in /~~

9. (opponent in corner) ~ice blast, NJ/, NJ/, +, ~

10. (opponent in corner) +~ice blast, NJ/, NJ/, +, ~

11. (opponent in corner) +~ice blast, NJ/, NJ/, +, ~



FULL CHARGE + SET UP

 

[Tom Brady]

thinking about banning this till patched. yes, no?

 

[Yuna]

I'm all for it. It's kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, which is something that should require more effort than that.

 

[Seapeople]

thinking about banning this till patched. yes, no?

I'm fine with banning it. No reason to use a tactic that's going to be fixed anyway.

Just a couple questions about Sub Zero: How safe are 13 & f4 on block, and what moves give him advantage?

 

[Saviorself]

i dont really see the big deal, DHC glitch in MVC3 results in 100% combos

its just another part sub-zero's mixups, yes?

 

[SWBeta]

thinking about banning this till patched. yes, no?

I don't think it should be banned. Any follow-up combo after the 2nd freeze (airborne) is not going to take as much damage as a full neutral jump combo from a grounded freeze. I'm pretty sure you can't connect another mac charge b+2 after the first one, so it's not really a problem. It's not broken either.

Tacking max charge b+2 after freeze is essentially adding an extra few percentage of damage to a combo on an airborne opponent... which is what-- b+1,2, 2,1,4 xx slide? What's the difference in damage between that and freeze, neutral jump punch, dash b+1,2, 2,1,4 xx slide? Probably not much.

EDIT: Even with meter, xray ender damage still isn't as high as what some characters can do meterless.

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[Tom Brady]

the full charge + glitch wont be banned.

 

[Tom Brady]

Sub completed.

 

[atthegates]

since you suggest only ever using BP-BP... what speaks against using the b+FP-BP-... chain after a jump-in? can't be crouched once they block and if the jumping P hits the opponent is forced into standing position.
after b+FP-BP, you can:

1. hit confirm into ice
2. block confirm into
2.a overhead (FP chain ender)
2.b low (BK chain ender)
3.b ice clone (right in their face).

i know the low ender can be avoided by several ways, but i still think using this chain is a good strategy.

 

[Robo-mitsu]

I don't get what is remotely patch/ban-worthy here. It's just a strong 50-50 mix up. Sub Zero still has to guess whether or not his opponent will block or not. If sub throws out the charged b2 and the opponent doesn't block they get out with minimal damage. If sub guesses they will try to get out by not blocking and dash cancels into a string, the opponent has the opportunity to block and get out unscathed. If you're aware of the mix up and you're quick enough, you can probably block dash canceled b2's on reaction.

This is not even close to gamebreaking, and considering some guys like Kung Lao and Shang Tsung are getting 80%+ combos WITHOUT even needing resets, nerfing Subby seems pointless to me.

 

[stickystaines]

It's possible that you could react to it. Just have to see how the game plays out. Kung Lao and Shang doing 80% is completely impractical. This is a rather practical reset, but other characters DO get 40-50% meterless without resets.

 

[Dirty Trillo]

Hey all, new guy here! First off, awesome guide for Sub.

I'm pretty new to "competative" MK, meaning I'm really trying to get as good as possible... with sub zero. He is by far my favorite character throughout the franchise.

On to some questions...

I pretty much try to zone the opponent out like the guide says. I pressure when I can by mixing BP, BP, BK, and also FP, FK, <-BK to mix sweeps in.

Do you guys have a hard time jumping in with a punch -> combo online? Offline its no problem, but online I find the timing hard landing that initial jump punch.

Also, can the <-fp, bp, fp combo be used to pressure? That last hit is medium I think, and leaves the opponent stuttered.

Lastly, what do you do vs opponents that jump in a lot. I try to clone them, but if they are pressure me with combos and a safe jump in punch ->combo, what do I do? Is it safe to try to combo after you block their string? I usually try to "push" them away with a down + bk, then try to quick combo fk, ->bk.

Any help is appreciated!

 

[SWBeta]

Not sure when it happened, but NRS stealth patched the full charge b+2. Doesn't freeze immediately after 1st freeze wears off. There's a cool down window after a freeze effect wears off before the freeze property of full charge b+2 is active, so you can't b+2 freeze immediately after the 1st freeze wears off. There's time for the opponent to mash interrupt now.

This is pretty lame. This was not broken at all. It's only a few extra points of damage on any given combo. Reminds me of the same BS like cool down freeze window on Cyber Sub's bombs if buffered after ANY attack. *sigh*

 

[Tom Brady]

Not sure when it happened, but NRS stealth patched the full charge b+2. Doesn't freeze immediately after 1st freeze wears off. There's a cool down window after a freeze effect wears off before the freeze property of full charge b+2 is active, so you can't b+2 freeze immediately after the 1st freeze wears off. There's time for the opponent to mash interrupt now.

This is pretty lame. This was not broken at all. It's only a few extra points of damage on any given combo. Reminds me of the same BS like cool down freeze window on Cyber Sub's bombs if buffered after ANY attack. *sigh*

its still in, it never works if they dont block. only if they are blocking or trying to interrupt.

 

[SWBeta]

its still in, it never works if they dont block. only if they are blocking or trying to interrupt.

Oh, snap. I forgot they had to be blocking for freeze to happen.

 

[SWBeta]

By the way, I'm not sure I agree with your belief that Sub is #1 in the game, Bill. Only because of teleporters.

What's stopping characters with ports (Especially safe ones) from getting around Ice Clone/Freeze space control?

Can you share your thoughts?

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[Saviorself]

how do i land 2,1,4~slide during a combo, it always whiffs

 

[SWBeta]

how do i land 2,1,4~slide during a combo, it always whiffs

Corner only

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[Dietician]

Corner only

No, that can be done anywhere on the screen. It can't be done off of neutral jump punch, b+1, 2 juggles.

 

[Tom Brady]

By the way, I'm not sure I agree with your belief that Sub is #1 in the game, Bill. Only because of teleporters.

What's stopping characters with ports (Especially safe ones) from getting around Ice Clone/Freeze space control?

Can you share your thoughts?

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see, heres the issue. ppl dont play a complete sub, they play a hide behind the close sub. only a complete sub is the best character in the game, basing sub off the cone will have you lose many many games.

 

[Dirty Trillo]

see, heres the issue. ppl dont play a complete sub, they play a hide behind the close sub. only a complete sub is the best character in the game, basing sub off the cone will have you lose many many games.

I'd love to hear some thoughts on "complete sub". I try not to hide behind clone, but put it out and dash in to pressure. I'm new to the competative MK sceen (read: scrub), so any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Kryplixx]

Corner only

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As Dietician said this can be done anywhere... Just have to buffer it fast. 2,1,2 Slide works mid air every time and much more leniant. 2,2,4 slide also works, but not mid air. 2,1,4 slide does the most damage out of those 3.

I think what Tom is saying is the fact Sub can play both styles extremely well depending on the kharacter your facing. No matter which kharacter you face though, you should mix it up... = complete Sub. However, I still think Raiden and Nightwolf own Sub for free.

 

[Jedah]

Setup

Hey tom first and foremost thank you very much for your time and dedication to provide us with such excellent guides for all of us to grow in MK9. The time and effort that you have put forth is immensely appreciated from us all.

Using the double freeze glitch i came up with a interesting setup that you might like let me know what you think. Please note this setup is more of a Mixup and is not safe.

After 2,1,2 xx Freeze the opponent is floating in the air and is at about half screen distance from you. While he's frozen you can do a Ice Puddle he will land into it afterwards you can dash in and time a so that if the opponent is blocking would result in another freeze, you can then follow up this freeze with a 2,1,4 xx Slide or Slide for some decent damage. This may have been complicated to read but hopefully you understand haha!

 

[SWBeta]

see, heres the issue. ppl dont play a complete sub, they play a hide behind the close sub. only a complete sub is the best character in the game, basing sub off the cone will have you lose many many games.

Can you elaborate on what a 'complete sub' is?

From what I understand, you use clone to set a barrier/do not cross line. While clone is out, you use a combination of ice ball and safe approaches to build meter and move the do not cross line closer and closer to the corner. When the opponent is forced as close to the corner as possible, you clone just far enough from the opponent that the clone actually comes out, then you go to town on breaking the opponent's defense with his super safe mix-up game which is at its highest effectiveness at the corner since the opponent cannot backdash. Meter for EX/breaker/X-Ray is also at your disposal from all the ice ball spamming and opponent blocking, so the opponent is pretty much fucked.

If this is not complete sub, what is? And how is what a complete sub has stronger than what a 'complete' raiden can do? I hope it's not something basic like bait teleport when the clone is out and move in front of the clone if you anticipate teleport so they port into the clone. I'm also hoping it doesn't involve air clones that are close to the ground as possible.

Not dissing your thoughts; just trying to pick your brain a bit. As tekken players, it's easy to understand that it's not effective to base your entire game plan around a single move or two, for the most part. I see freeze, clone, and the variety of safe normals that hit at all levels that make up a sub's game. These aren't enough to make him 'complete' even when used as efficiently as possible?

edit: actually, i'll hit you up in PM or facebook.

 

[Zedox]

I would also like to hear what other setup/mixups sub has as he's my main. And is that SWBeta the same StarWindBeta from MKO (and MK5.org...the good ole days when we were in the chat)?