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Move List - Sub-Zero Sub-Zero Exhaustive Move Data

Lokheit

Noob
The following document is meant to help Sub-Zero players, providing fast to find info about every single move without needing to test in the game:

In addition to stuff the game tells you (like frame data and damage), the document includes more information that the game won't tell you like:

- Damage scale for every move (the number that all following damage is multiplied by, for example everything following a B12 Iceball starter is multiplied by 0.95*0.95*0.75).

- Move properties in depth (if it's a hard knockdown instead of a regular one, if it's a restand, if the move crouches under high attacks, if it has armor, etc...). Even some "made up" terms like "Stomp" to indicate that Cryo's hammers can't be parried.

- Every special move that every command can combo into (in many cases can't be read from the provided frame data).

- Every special move that every command can jail into.

- The same but with no hit moves, providing the most optimal combo starter you can combo or jail into.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19oC6vP_NoSpfuhbKwPbvUSCtmbS5b0uDrS-bGLQLJDA/edit?usp=sharing

(I recommend to zoom out the browser tab a couple of hits to make it easier to read the table without needing to scroll to the sides in some pages).

As I made up some terms in the "Properties" section (like "Stomp" to indicate that Cryo's Hammer can't be parried) you can consult this document for the definition of each property (and you might find some info about more typical properties that maybe you didn't know like X-Ray Freeze allowing a second Freeze on he same combo):

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IWOzt1rOPFrWnrEMrnBprLkRvxzjEe1dQ8kjfdYZxaQ/edit?usp=sharing

I used Sorcerer Quan Chi's armor spell timed up correctly to check the properties of some split strings, this way you can see how Icy Slide first hit isn't a Hard Knock Down (just a regular one) or Cryomancer's Air Frost Hammer first hit is a Restand (this one could also be checked in the corner).


Introduction:

I've mentioned a couple of times that I'm working on a huge Cryomancer video guide, it will still take some time because of the amount of info I'm trying to cover plus the video editing, but this is a sneak peak to help the community with stuff I already can show while I keep working on the big guide.

As part of the guide covers "universal Sub-Zero" stuff, I decided to also include in the document all the details from his other variations exclusive moves so every Sub-Zero can benefit from it. I hope it helps.


How to read the document:

  • You will find multiple tabs, each of them providing different kinds of info about Sub-Zero's moves. On each tab you will always find on the left side the moves listed by name, parent move, command and variation.

  • The list slightly alters the order shown in the game move list as some moves there like some Cryomancer strings don't follow a logical order next to their parent moves.

  • If a move variation reads "ALL (REPLACED)" it means that it's an universal move that is replaced by a different one on some variations.

  • If a move variation reads "ALL (ENHANCED)" it means that it's an universal move that some variations could enhance through certain means.

  • Split strings (strings that contain multiple moves with different properties using a single command) are shown in parts to consult the properties of each one separatedly.

  • Multi-Hit moves are shown as single moves because technically they count as the same move, with no damage penalty or altering properties from one hit to another until the last one (but the fact that they're Multi-Hit moves is listed on their properties along with the number of hits).
Properties Tab:

  • Type: The type of the move, generally High, Mid, Overhead, Low or Throw. There are some special cases like Parry, Buff or Sequence that I made up to illustrate the move effects.

  • Properties: Everything that the move does when it hits.

  • Cancel: Indicates if the move can be cancelled or not. Some moves are listed as "YES" but the cell is colored in dark gray. This is because technically they can be cancelled, but they trigger Auto Block so you can't combo from them unless the opponent is airborne.

  • Damage Scale: The damage scale applied by the move over all following damage. I'm preparing another exhaustive video guide explaining everything related to damage scale (will come sooner than the Cryomancer guide), for now just know that the natural damage of every hit in a combo is multiplied by the penalty of every single move that came before it.

    I used Ice Klone setups to learn some non cancelable strings damage scale, but it wasn't possible with all of them.

    Moves with damage scale including a '?' were checked using aditional stuns in custom combat and comparing the results with known moves, because I didn't have access to the exact decimal numbers I can't confirm 100% they're true.

    Moves that I couldn't test even through custom combat are marked as N/A.

    You will also notice that jumping attacks damage scale refers to the type of jumping attack. This will be explained when I release the Damage Scale Guide (it changes depending on the number of times you hit an airborne target with a jumping attack, jumping attacks against standing opponents is 0.9).

  • Damage and Block Damage: As shown in the in game move list.

Frame Data Tab:

This tab includes the frame data shown for every move in the in game move list. It's exactly as that list shows so some numbers might be wrong because the game shows them wrong (for example F4 block cancel is much better than what the list says and the X-Ray is 27 frames instead of the listed 12 that probably only refer to the first part).


Special Cancels Tab:

This tab shows which strings can cancel into each special move, marked in blue. Strings with conditions (like needing to stay close to the opponent or have him against the corner) are marked in a lighter blue with a description of the conditions ("or" indicates that only one of those conditions needs to happen and "and" requires both or more conditions).

Black cells indicate either not cancellable moves, auto block moves or strings belonging to a different variation than the special move (also marked with N/A).


Jailing Cancels Tab:


This table works like the previous one but in this case it refers to strings safely canceling into special moves (all hail F4, it's not even close as you can see).

Auto Block moves are listed here as even if they can't combo, they can jail.


No Hit Cancels:

This table shows which strings can be canceled into a no hit special move and have enough advantage for a combo. It includes special conditions when needed like the previous tables.

Each string includes the most optimal combo starter you can cancel into, but in some cases you can connect a slower move (for example in some cases where you can connect a B12, you can also connect a F4 but B12 is the better combo starter).

Many include a variant command because there are situations where one or the other can't connect properly (for example jump punches in the corner after using Unbreakable EX Ice Aura


No Hit Safety:

This table shows which strings can be canceled on block into a no hit special move and still be safe against the whole cast (tested against Reptile 6 frames armored fast advancing Slippery Slide). Cells in blue containing a command indicate that you have enough advantage to jail into that command.


Work In Progress:

  • No Hit Safety is tested against the fastest move in the game to be sure each move will be safe against the whole cast. I plan to add the frame disadvantage of the unsafe ones as they can still be safe against slower moves.

  • I also plan to add the X-Ray Run Cancel on both No Hit tables just to be 100% informative but I'm not making it a top priority because it's more a gimmick than something you're going to use.

    For now I can tell you that there is enough hit advantage that B12 into X-Ray Run Cancel can be followed up by a Jump In Punch 2 or a B2.
 
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RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Premium Supporter
This is a super thorough project. It's going to take another read through for me to fully comprehend, but this is awesome stuff. This should probably be stickied.
 

Lokheit

Noob
This is a super thorough project. It's going to take another read through for me to fully comprehend, but this is awesome stuff. This should probably be stickied.
Thanks! I'm open to sugestions to make this easier to read. I'm thinking about posting image versions of each tab so you don't need to scroll, specially with the cancel tabs.
 

Samsara

Resident Cynic
You deserve a hug for all of this effort, it would also be great to sticky this--- it is very thorough. I hope your Cryo vidya guide comes out all right. Again, well done.

 

Lokheit

Noob
Hey dude I love the idea but so far isn't all the info you've given already told in his move list in game? I may be wrong
Stuff that the game doesn't tell:

- Damage scale for every move (the number that all following damage is multiplied by, for example everything following a B12 Iceball starter is multiplied by 0.95*0.95*0.75).

Fun fact: The heaviest damage scale isn't Iceball, it's the last hit of 242, that's why Cryo always goes for B2 instead of 242.

- Move properties in depth (if it's a hard knockdown instead of a regular one, if it's a restand, if the move crouches under high attacks, if it has armor, etc...). Even some "made up" terms like "Stomp" to indicate that Cryo's hammers can't be parried.

- Every special move that every command can combo into (in many cases can't be read from the provided frame data).

- Every special move that every command can jail into.

- The same but with no hit moves, providing the most optimal combo starter you can combo or jail into.
 
Last edited:

Lokheit

Noob
Worth noting, in some of the Special/Jailing cancels with the "CLOSE" label, you will connect almost always, but if there exist any distance from which it's possible that it won't connect, I'm using the "CLOSE" label just to inform that such a distance exist. There are some ridiculous cases like 123 whiffing the first to hits and connecting the last one from max distance.


In others you have to be face to face to connect properly.
 
if any cryomancers have ps4 and want to train hmu, i have some awesome tech and im up to see things you guys do :)

PSN: Xxonemanwolfpax
Clan account: MYZTERY_-Wolfpax

hmu on my main psn though
 

Lokheit

Noob
The Jump In Punch in the corner (it works with 1 and 2) was known, it's more an "anomaly" with some attacks rather than a real move property.
 

Lokheit

Noob
Pretty awesome anomaly though.
Yup, it is. You can achieve it with jumping kick into Air Hammer if timed properly, I could add this in the table, but I didn't because it's more related to hitbox positioning than what the move does by itself so it would require extra explanations (or a good thread like the one you made already explaining the crossup :p).
 

Jolt

Uprise
Premium Supporter
@Lokheit Good stuff, excellent resource.Hopefully some of the other communities will try to steal this for their mains. An all in one resource that's visually appealing AND well organized? YES PLEASE.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Premium Supporter
Yup, it is. You can achieve it with jumping kick into Air Hammer if timed properly, I could add this in the table, but I didn't because it's more related to hitbox positioning than what the move does by itself so it would require extra explanations (or a good thread like the one you made already explaining the crossup :p).
I'd like to do a thread on what causes that "pseudo cross up air hammer" eventually. And someday follow up with combo gravity values... Maybe.

For reals, the SZ threads are some of the best on TYM. Informed, organized, civil (for the most part). Shout outs to you guys.
 

Lokheit

Noob
@Lokheit Good stuff, excellent resource.Hopefully some of the other communities will try to steal this for their mains. An all in one resource that's visually appealing AND well organized? YES PLEASE.
Thanks! I intend to do something like this in the future for some other characters but very few more and over a long time. Kenshi is the first in the line but I will wait until the next round of buffs because if he gets the overhaul he deserves it would mean rewriting the whole thing... and if Sareena is ever announced as KP3 or whatever she gets priority over anyone else the second she is released.

I'd like to do a thread on what causes that "pseudo cross up air hammer" eventually. And someday follow up with combo gravity values... Maybe.

For reals, the SZ threads are some of the best on TYM. Informed, organized, civil (for the most part). Shout outs to you guys.
Agree, I was only a TYM lurker during the MK9 days and already enjoyed a lot how easy it was to learn stuff from the Sub-Zero section, that tradition continues with MKX :)
 

Lokheit

Noob
Couple of things:

- Just want to be sure if the current state of the document (no changes since posting) is easy to read or you guys have any sugestion to make it better. I think if you zoom out just a bit all the tables are easy to read.

- I'll be updating some stuff in the coming days (mostly updating terms and adding numbers to the no hit tables).

- I'm a PC player but I'm getting the console version of the game if they don't change their stand on PC support, which means that I will keep the table updated in the future. I still feel bad about my decision to reward the kick in the balls buying the game again but I guess how much I like this game is more than how much the guys making decisions like the players.

- @Tim Static I want to ask to sticky the thread as requested by other users, this is more a "consult" thread rather than a "discuss" one and will get buried fast if it's not stick and the info won't be easily accessible.
 
The following document is meant to help Sub-Zero players, providing fast to find info about every single move without needing to test in the game:

In addition to stuff the game tells you (like frame data and damage), the document includes more information that the game won't tell you like:

- Damage scale for every move (the number that all following damage is multiplied by, for example everything following a B12 Iceball starter is multiplied by 0.95*0.95*0.75).

- Move properties in depth (if it's a hard knockdown instead of a regular one, if it's a restand, if the move crouches under high attacks, if it has armor, etc...). Even some "made up" terms like "Stomp" to indicate that Cryo's hammers can't be parried.

- Every special move that every command can combo into (in many cases can't be read from the provided frame data).

- Every special move that every command can jail into.

- The same but with no hit moves, providing the most optimal combo starter you can combo or jail into.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19oC6vP_NoSpfuhbKwPbvUSCtmbS5b0uDrS-bGLQLJDA/edit?usp=sharing

(I recommend to zoom out the browser tab a couple of hits to make it easier to read the table without needing to scroll to the sides in some pages).

As I made up some terms in the "Properties" section (like "Stomp" to indicate that Cryo's Hammer can't be parried) you can consult this document for the definition of each property (and you might find some info about more typical properties that maybe you didn't know like X-Ray Freeze allowing a second Freeze on he same combo):

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IWOzt1rOPFrWnrEMrnBprLkRvxzjEe1dQ8kjfdYZxaQ/edit?usp=sharing

I used Sorcerer Quan Chi's armor spell timed up correctly to check the properties of some split strings, this way you can see how Icy Slide first hit isn't a Hard Knock Down (just a regular one) or Cryomancer's Air Frost Hammer first hit is a Restand (this one could also be checked in the corner).


Introduction:

I've mentioned a couple of times that I'm working on a huge Cryomancer video guide, it will still take some time because of the amount of info I'm trying to cover plus the video editing, but this is a sneak peak to help the community with stuff I already can show while I keep working on the big guide.

As part of the guide covers "universal Sub-Zero" stuff, I decided to also include in the document all the details from his other variations exclusive moves so every Sub-Zero can benefit from it. I hope it helps.


How to read the document:

  • You will find multiple tabs, each of them providing different kinds of info about Sub-Zero's moves. On each tab you will always find on the left side the moves listed by name, parent move, command and variation.

  • The list slightly alters the order shown in the game move list as some moves there like some Cryomancer strings don't follow a logical order next to their parent moves.

  • If a move variation reads "ALL (REPLACED)" it means that it's an universal move that is replaced by a different one on some variations.

  • If a move variation reads "ALL (ENHANCED)" it means that it's an universal move that some variations could enhance through certain means.

  • Split strings (strings that contain multiple moves with different properties using a single command) are shown in parts to consult the properties of each one separatedly.

  • Multi-Hit moves are shown as single moves because technically they count as the same move, with no damage penalty or altering properties from one hit to another until the last one (but the fact that they're Multi-Hit moves is listed on their properties along with the number of hits).
Properties Tab:

  • Type: The type of the move, generally High, Mid, Overhead, Low or Throw. There are some special cases like Parry, Buff or Sequence that I made up to illustrate the move effects.

  • Properties: Everything that the move does when it hits.

  • Cancel: Indicates if the move can be cancelled or not. Some moves are listed as "YES" but the cell is colored in dark gray. This is because technically they can be cancelled, but they trigger Auto Block so you can't combo from them unless the opponent is airborne.

  • Damage Scale: The damage scale applied by the move over all following damage. I'm preparing another exhaustive video guide explaining everything related to damage scale (will come sooner than the Cryomancer guide), for now just know that the natural damage of every hit in a combo is multiplied by the penalty of every single move that came before it.

    I used Ice Klone setups to learn some non cancelable strings damage scale, but it wasn't possible with all of them.

    Moves with damage scale including a '?' were checked using aditional stuns in custom combat and comparing the results with known moves, because I didn't have access to the exact decimal numbers I can't confirm 100% they're true.

    Moves that I couldn't test even through custom combat are marked as N/A.

    You will also notice that jumping attacks damage scale refers to the type of jumping attack. This will be explained when I release the Damage Scale Guide (it changes depending on the number of times you hit an airborne target with a jumping attack, jumping attacks against standing opponents is 0.9).

  • Damage and Block Damage: As shown in the in game move list.

Frame Data Tab:

This tab includes the frame data shown for every move in the in game move list. It's exactly as that list shows so some numbers might be wrong because the game shows them wrong (for example F4 block cancel is much better than what the list says and the X-Ray is 27 frames instead of the listed 12 that probably only refer to the first part).


Special Cancels Tab:

This tab shows which strings can cancel into each special move, marked in blue. Strings with conditions (like needing to stay close to the opponent or have him against the corner) are marked in a lighter blue with a description of the conditions ("or" indicates that only one of those conditions needs to happen and "and" requires both or more conditions).

Black cells indicate either not cancellable moves, auto block moves or strings belonging to a different variation than the special move (also marked with N/A).


Jailing Cancels Tab:


This table works like the previous one but in this case it refers to strings safely canceling into special moves (all hail F4, it's not even close as you can see).

Auto Block moves are listed here as even if they can't combo, they can jail.


No Hit Cancels:

This table shows which strings can be canceled into a no hit special move and have enough advantage for a combo. It includes special conditions when needed like the previous tables.

Each string includes the most optimal combo starter you can cancel into, but in some cases you can connect a slower move (for example in some cases where you can connect a B12, you can also connect a F4 but B12 is the better combo starter).

Many include a variant command because there are situations where one or the other can't connect properly (for example jump punches in the corner after using Unbreakable EX Ice Aura


No Hit Safety:

This table shows which strings can be canceled on block into a no hit special move and still be safe against the whole cast (tested against Reptile 6 frames armored fast advancing Slippery Slide). Cells in blue containing a command indicate that you have enough advantage to jail into that command.


Work In Progress:

  • No Hit Safety is tested against the fastest move in the game to be sure each move will be safe against the whole cast. I plan to add the frame disadvantage of the unsafe ones as they can still be safe against slower moves.

  • I also plan to add the X-Ray Run Cancel on both No Hit tables just to be 100% informative but I'm not making it a top priority because it's more a gimmick than something you're going to use.

    For now I can tell you that there is enough hit advantage that B12 into X-Ray Run Cancel can be followed up by a Jump In Punch 2 or a B2.
N
The following document is meant to help Sub-Zero players, providing fast to find info about every single move without needing to test in the game:

In addition to stuff the game tells you (like frame data and damage), the document includes more information that the game won't tell you like:

- Damage scale for every move (the number that all following damage is multiplied by, for example everything following a B12 Iceball starter is multiplied by 0.95*0.95*0.75).

- Move properties in depth (if it's a hard knockdown instead of a regular one, if it's a restand, if the move crouches under high attacks, if it has armor, etc...). Even some "made up" terms like "Stomp" to indicate that Cryo's hammers can't be parried.

- Every special move that every command can combo into (in many cases can't be read from the provided frame data).

- Every special move that every command can jail into.

- The same but with no hit moves, providing the most optimal combo starter you can combo or jail into.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19oC6vP_NoSpfuhbKwPbvUSCtmbS5b0uDrS-bGLQLJDA/edit?usp=sharing

(I recommend to zoom out the browser tab a couple of hits to make it easier to read the table without needing to scroll to the sides in some pages).

As I made up some terms in the "Properties" section (like "Stomp" to indicate that Cryo's Hammer can't be parried) you can consult this document for the definition of each property (and you might find some info about more typical properties that maybe you didn't know like X-Ray Freeze allowing a second Freeze on he same combo):

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IWOzt1rOPFrWnrEMrnBprLkRvxzjEe1dQ8kjfdYZxaQ/edit?usp=sharing

I used Sorcerer Quan Chi's armor spell timed up correctly to check the properties of some split strings, this way you can see how Icy Slide first hit isn't a Hard Knock Down (just a regular one) or Cryomancer's Air Frost Hammer first hit is a Restand (this one could also be checked in the corner).


Introduction:

I've mentioned a couple of times that I'm working on a huge Cryomancer video guide, it will still take some time because of the amount of info I'm trying to cover plus the video editing, but this is a sneak peak to help the community with stuff I already can show while I keep working on the big guide.

As part of the guide covers "universal Sub-Zero" stuff, I decided to also include in the document all the details from his other variations exclusive moves so every Sub-Zero can benefit from it. I hope it helps.


How to read the document:

  • You will find multiple tabs, each of them providing different kinds of info about Sub-Zero's moves. On each tab you will always find on the left side the moves listed by name, parent move, command and variation.

  • The list slightly alters the order shown in the game move list as some moves there like some Cryomancer strings don't follow a logical order next to their parent moves.

  • If a move variation reads "ALL (REPLACED)" it means that it's an universal move that is replaced by a different one on some variations.

  • If a move variation reads "ALL (ENHANCED)" it means that it's an universal move that some variations could enhance through certain means.

  • Split strings (strings that contain multiple moves with different properties using a single command) are shown in parts to consult the properties of each one separatedly.

  • Multi-Hit moves are shown as single moves because technically they count as the same move, with no damage penalty or altering properties from one hit to another until the last one (but the fact that they're Multi-Hit moves is listed on their properties along with the number of hits).
Properties Tab:

  • Type: The type of the move, generally High, Mid, Overhead, Low or Throw. There are some special cases like Parry, Buff or Sequence that I made up to illustrate the move effects.

  • Properties: Everything that the move does when it hits.

  • Cancel: Indicates if the move can be cancelled or not. Some moves are listed as "YES" but the cell is colored in dark gray. This is because technically they can be cancelled, but they trigger Auto Block so you can't combo from them unless the opponent is airborne.

  • Damage Scale: The damage scale applied by the move over all following damage. I'm preparing another exhaustive video guide explaining everything related to damage scale (will come sooner than the Cryomancer guide), for now just know that the natural damage of every hit in a combo is multiplied by the penalty of every single move that came before it.

    I used Ice Klone setups to learn some non cancelable strings damage scale, but it wasn't possible with all of them.

    Moves with damage scale including a '?' were checked using aditional stuns in custom combat and comparing the results with known moves, because I didn't have access to the exact decimal numbers I can't confirm 100% they're true.

    Moves that I couldn't test even through custom combat are marked as N/A.

    You will also notice that jumping attacks damage scale refers to the type of jumping attack. This will be explained when I release the Damage Scale Guide (it changes depending on the number of times you hit an airborne target with a jumping attack, jumping attacks against standing opponents is 0.9).

  • Damage and Block Damage: As shown in the in game move list.

Frame Data Tab:

This tab includes the frame data shown for every move in the in game move list. It's exactly as that list shows so some numbers might be wrong because the game shows them wrong (for example F4 block cancel is much better than what the list says and the X-Ray is 27 frames instead of the listed 12 that probably only refer to the first part).


Special Cancels Tab:

This tab shows which strings can cancel into each special move, marked in blue. Strings with conditions (like needing to stay close to the opponent or have him against the corner) are marked in a lighter blue with a description of the conditions ("or" indicates that only one of those conditions needs to happen and "and" requires both or more conditions).

Black cells indicate either not cancellable moves, auto block moves or strings belonging to a different variation than the special move (also marked with N/A).


Jailing Cancels Tab:


This table works like the previous one but in this case it refers to strings safely canceling into special moves (all hail F4, it's not even close as you can see).

Auto Block moves are listed here as even if they can't combo, they can jail.


No Hit Cancels:

This table shows which strings can be canceled into a no hit special move and have enough advantage for a combo. It includes special conditions when needed like the previous tables.

Each string includes the most optimal combo starter you can cancel into, but in some cases you can connect a slower move (for example in some cases where you can connect a B12, you can also connect a F4 but B12 is the better combo starter).

Many include a variant command because there are situations where one or the other can't connect properly (for example jump punches in the corner after using Unbreakable EX Ice Aura


No Hit Safety:

This table shows which strings can be canceled on block into a no hit special move and still be safe against the whole cast (tested against Reptile 6 frames armored fast advancing Slippery Slide). Cells in blue containing a command indicate that you have enough advantage to jail into that command.


Work In Progress:

  • No Hit Safety is tested against the fastest move in the game to be sure each move will be safe against the whole cast. I plan to add the frame disadvantage of the unsafe ones as they can still be safe against slower moves.

  • I also plan to add the X-Ray Run Cancel on both No Hit tables just to be 100% informative but I'm not making it a top priority because it's more a gimmick than something you're going to use.

    For now I can tell you that there is enough hit advantage that B12 into X-Ray Run Cancel can be followed up by a Jump In Punch 2 or a B2.
Nice job, I am new to mk just been playing for several months now, I did a similar thing using a grid pattern, putting all move down the side of a large piece of paper and along the top I put the special moves and just simply used the lab to see which moves canceled into special moves in a corner and in the open field of play, I was very helpful to begin to learn the logistics of this hi paced game, I love sub zero his moves came to me so easy as compared to experimenting with many other characters, which variant do you think is best and why?, I prefer Cryo
 

Lokheit

Noob
N

Nice job, I am new to mk just been playing for several months now, I did a similar thing using a grid pattern, putting all move down the side of a large piece of paper and along the top I put the special moves and just simply used the lab to see which moves canceled into special moves in a corner and in the open field of play, I was very helpful to begin to learn the logistics of this hi paced game, I love sub zero his moves came to me so easy as compared to experimenting with many other characters, which variant do you think is best and why?, I prefer Cryo
I'm a Cryomancer main but right now Grand Master is the best variation. However that might change, tomorrow (or today depending on your time zone) we will learn about the new balance changes during the Kombat Kast and things we will have to wait until the dust settles before deciding which variation ends up being the best (best case scenario: everything is perfectly balanced and there is no perfect variation).

Personally I will keep sticking to Cryo no mater the changes (always liked the ice arms and kori weapons).

After the patch I will recheck everything in the table to properly update it and I will begin editing the Kenshi one.
 
I'm a Cryomancer main but right now Grand Master is the best variation. However that might change, tomorrow (or today depending on your time zone) we will learn about the new balance changes during the Kombat Kast and things we will have to wait until the dust settles before deciding which variation ends up being the best (best case scenario: everything is perfectly balanced and there is no perfect variation).

Personally I will keep sticking to Cryo no mater the changes (always liked the ice arms and kori weapons).

After the patch I will recheck everything in the table to properly update it and I will begin editing the Kenshi one.
Why do you think GM is better, I feel so defenseless using him, the need to hit clone every time is so essential, but I have notice that for instance if I use f33 and cancel into clone and the f33 is blocked I have not been punished d.t. The clone so that is an adv. but if you drop the clone, you get nailed, just what I have noticed
 
could
Somehow I think after today Grandmaster could be the Worst Variation. They can't really touch too much frame data basic moves and combos without Nerfing all Sub-Zeros to the ground but I still feel they are going to do something major like remove the Shatter Completely, Nerf its damage to Half or make the Clone disappear faster effectively ruining his meterless corner game and forcing you to use the bar to do an Ice Statue. The Worst thing they could possibly do though would be remove all Clones from Corners. I'll still stick with him and find ways to make him work but I got that Mk9 feeling today.

Fingers Crossed Paulo doesn't Kill him.
what I like about GM is you can clone, and use the clone as a barrier and you can also project ice balls through the clone towards the opponent, could they possibly alter this aspect of his game, to,me that would be major or like you make the clone disappear faster and or limit his corner cloning
 
That's awesome work, grat.

About nerfing GM clone: they can do it but why would they want to kill GM? :) he has still many bad/hard matchups he is not an ultimate op character who should be nerfed. We will see.
 
Can someone post his clone cancel data? Just clone and ex clone data off of B12, F42, F33, D4, F4. Thanks in advance.
 

Lokheit

Noob
Can someone post his clone cancel data? Just clone and ex clone data off of B12, F42, F33, D4, F4. Thanks in advance.
The table has the "most optimal" cancels from each move with the advantage available in the "no hit cancel" and "no hit safety" tabs (not neccesarily the slower possible ones, but the ones lealing to the best combo), I was planning to add specific numbers in the comming days aswell as re-editing the way some info is shown (it may take more time, it's going to be a busy week). I can tag you when the update is done if you want.
 
New players wont know what they are looking at. Can someone just post the clone cancel data? I'd so it once you update the move data but tbh, im done doing anything on the SZ forum. Posting the clone cancel data helps new players who wont know what they are looking at when reading your move data chart.