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General/Other Sub-Zero Buffs

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Royal Contributor
So I had this idea on my mind for a while, and now when I saw the similar Kano thread I decided to start this thread. (I also want to see some action in the Sub-Zero forum)

This thread is just for discussion, or maybe (maaaaaaaaybe) if we ever see the PC community balance patch we may use this as a reference. So keep it reasonable people lol.

Basically what buffs would make Sub-Zero a good character? I have some ideas that I am going to list. Obviously not all those buffs at once because it might make Subby broken, so I am just going to list possibilities.

I think a lot of you people are going to say give us back vanilla Sub. Unfortunately I wasn't around in the vanilla days so I don't know exactly how he was. So if you guys could list the stuff he had that were removed that would be great.

OK here we go:

What I think is a must:
- Standing 2 is a true mid.
- (Slight?) Damage boost
- The old EX Ground Freeze reset

Other fancy ideas:
- Cancellable Ground Freeze
- EX Ice Clone doesn't whiff up close (this would make it act like some sort of a parry)
- Armor on EX Ground Freeze? That might be useful if it was also cancellable

Bonus - Food for thought:
What if Ice Clones traded with projectiles? I am not saying all projectiles should trade, just Ice Clone with projectiles.
 

Dedamn666

Big Poppa Pump
I think Sub needed a damage buff, considering how he plays out. You fuck up you should be punished severely against Sub.
 

TaffyMeat

Infinite Meter Kombos
Ice clone should be his weakest tool to stop people hiding behind it and waiting. His b+2 charge move is underused and should be more user friendly.
 

NKZero

Premium
Premium Supporter
2 should be a mid. He could do with a damage buff. Faster start-up on ground freeze and perhaps make it cancellable.
 
what if sub can create a ice clone, and the opponent hit with a projectile sub, the clone still there in 2 seconds, like the mk9 demo
 

Knoterror

Premium
Premium Supporter
I'll never understand why people want Puddle to be cancelable. It would be redundant with B2 cancels.

Make Ice Puddle have faster startup and more range so it can't be jump-in punished on reaction if spaced correctly. Allow to be linked from blocks strings. EX can be cancelled and possibly have +frames if cancelled from a block string.

My must have buffs:

- 2 hits mid on everyone.

- Make air freezes on a static timer, not in relation to ground proximity. This gives him the option to go 40+ consistent damage for a bar with 224~Ice Beam.

- Ice Ball does chip damage.
 

Temjiin

www.mkxframedata.com
I think ice puddle should have the same frames as Jax's ground pound, with a cancellable option.
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
I do think sub could use some buffs, but making his standing 2 a mid is a little too good, that would be the fastest mid in the game over smokes b2 not to mention that's the starter for some of the most hit confirmable strings as it is. I think instead it should stay a high, but not whiff on low hitbox characters, and should be unduckable. I think his air freezes should last as long as his ground freezes, and his EX freeze should come out regardless of incoming projectiles, instead of being interrupted and negated on trades. I also think he should either get a faster d2 (maybe 10-12 frames) and/or a 6 frame d1. another fun option to throw around is allowing him to end strings with his ice puddle, if it was possible to make this happen without high damage resets.
 

Knoterror

Premium
Premium Supporter
I do think sub could use some buffs, but making his standing 2 a mid is a little too good, that would be the fastest mid in the game over smokes b2 not to mention that's the starter for some of the most hit confirmable strings as it is. I think instead it should stay a high, but not whiff on low hitbox characters, and should be unduckable.
Wut?
 
I'll never understand why people want Puddle to be cancelable. It would be redundant with B2 cancels.

Make Ice Puddle have faster startup and more range so it can't be jump-in punished on reaction if spaced correctly. Allow to be linked from blocks strings. EX can be cancelled and possibly have +frames if cancelled from a block string.

My must have buffs:

- 2 hits mid on everyone.

- Make air freezes on a static timer, not in relation to ground proximity. This gives him the option to go 40+ consistent damage for a bar with 224~Ice Beam.

- Ice Ball does chip damage.
Why make it dash-cancellable? because b2 doesnt build meter. kabal gets to build meter with a dash cancel, and thats when he's cancelling a move that is actually good. giving sub the option to dash out would mean free meter, and it makes the worst move in the game slightly better.

However making it come out faster and cancel into it from blockstring would both be suitable buffs as well. Or, it could have bigger range (lets say all of the visible part freezes instead of the middle), or make it so that it stays active longer, more like a clone.

i honestly dont think sub needs much more than a fixed ice puddle. ice ball shouldnt do chip because it is a status projectile like shadowball, but maybe a speed boost so you could make 2-1-4-Iceball freeze midscreen.
 

Knoterror

Premium
Premium Supporter
Why make it dash-cancellable? because b2 doesnt build meter. kabal gets to build meter with a dash cancel, and thats when he's cancelling a move that is actually good. giving sub the option to dash out would mean free meter, and it makes the worst move in the game slightly better.

However making it come out faster and cancel into it from blockstring would both be suitable buffs as well. Or, it could have bigger range (lets say all of the visible part freezes instead of the middle), or make it so that it stays active longer, more like a clone.

i honestly dont think sub needs much more than a fixed ice puddle. ice ball shouldnt do chip because it is a status projectile like shadowball, but maybe a speed boost so you could make 2-1-4-Iceball freeze midscreen.
Sub builds meter just fine with Clones. He doesn't need dash cancelable Puddles for that. I actually think dash cancel Puddles would be too good. Forcing people to jump when you're at range while having a forward jump counter (clone) as well as back jump counter (ice ball/beam/slide) sounds too dirty. Especially in the corner. Corner game would be substantially better. B2 stays in check because you're at point blank range.
 
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Sub builds meter just fine with Clones. He doesn't need dash cancelable Puddles for that. I actually think dash cancel Puddles would be too good. Forcing people to jump when you're at range while having a forward jump counter (clone) as well as back jump counter (ice ball/beam/slide) sounds too dirty. Especially in the corner. Corner game would be substantially better. B2 stays in check because you're at point blank range.
i guess just buffing range could be good enough. maybe give it the ability to be near/mid/far. also the active frames on the puddle itself could be upped imo
 
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Heres some buff for sub. I think this would make him good but not too broken.

2 is mid
allow 224 clone to be a string in the corner by letting the 4 have a bit more push back, just enough to get the clone out.
Add more freeze time where if a projectile trade, sub can get a combo like cyrax
Add more freeze time when hit opponent in the air
If sub has 2 bars, he can ex slide into ex ice ball for 20%. This is fair considering he has a very good x ray.
Ex ice clone can freeze armor moves

If pushing it, ex ice ball have armor but I dont think he needs it
 
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Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
-St.2 hits mid
-EN Ice Blast keep them frozen in the air for a longer time period
-EN Close breaks armor
-Ground Freeze cancellable

Everything else is fine
 

Knoterror

Premium
Premium Supporter
im not sure what part of this you find confusing, making his standing 2 connect with low hitbox/crouching opponents but remain a high makes a lot of sense and is still pretty balanced, plenty of characters have similar moves.
I'm confused by the part where you think a Mid is actually an Overhead.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
-Community wants all resets removed from MK9 in a custom PC mod-

-Somehow it's okay if Sub gets his back :DOGE-

But in all seriousness, some of these suggestions are extremely trivial, even if EX clone absorbed armour, people would learn to dash block it. (Which isn't as hard as you may think, it's just that as things stand, 75% of the roster have a way around it regardless lol.)

Sub's problems in a nutshell - designed as a turtle character, gets out-turtled by everyone not named Johnny Cage.