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Question Studying Frame Data

NB Semi Evil Ryu

Former Sub-Zero of the Midwest (2011 - 2015)
So I've been playing NRS games with the FGC since MK 9. Over the course of those years, I've improved my game immensely via sharpening my fundamentals, working on improving my reaction times a little bit, and improving my execution some.

However, the one thing that I've known to have always been my Achilles' Heel is my lack of frame data knowledge. During my years playing, I had always focused more on learning combos and tech. Never did I take the time to sit down and really look at and study the frame data. This resulted in me letting plenty of actions that my opponents have made go unpunished.

With Injustice 2 around the corner, I would like to change that.

However, I'm not entirely sure how to begin. So I was hoping to ask some of the higher level folks how they approach studying the frame data for a fresh new game. Do you take the time and just study all of the data or do you wait to encounter something in a match and then try to figure out its data?
 

Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
I kinda second this question. Though I have a feeling people will say, "Play every character in the roster so you know the frame data." Often times NRS' in-game data isn't totally accurate anyhow.
 

Cashual

PSN: Cansuela
I'm by no means a high level player, but I think in general the first step is learning the frame data for characters you play. Most people pick a few characters early in a game's life and take them to training mode and start figuring them out.

At that point you want to look for the characters best normals and they're frame data. Knowing whether a particular string or normal is plus on block for example is crucial because if it's more than say +1 or +2, you can quickly deduce what other buttons or strings you can follow up with to continue pressure or possibly stagger with or utilize a frame trap, etc. this is a big simplification, but you get the idea.

Knowing whether an attack starts up in 8f vs 18f can make a world of difference in what buttons you use in different situations. In addition to moves startups, knowing active frames and recovery frames on hit, block, and whiff is all crucial. Like knowing your ji1 starts up in a fast 6f but your ji2 is slower at 8f can help you decide which to use. It gets more complicated when you consider active frames and hit advantage. So, maybe the above pretend 6f ji1 is a great air to air tool to beat other buttons because it's fast, maybe has a more horizontal hitbox, etc. but it's not necessarily better than the 8f ji2 for a number of reasons. Maybe the ji2 has more active frames meaning that the attack is able to land over a longer period of one so you don't have to be as precise about when to press the button because the move will hit at some point while active. And maybe that ji2 has more advantage on hit guaranteeing your most damaging yet slower combo starter.

And more generally I think people should learn the frame data initially for characters they're interested in by going to practice and experimenting. As you face more characters and struggle, take those characters to practice and look at the frame data for the moves giving you problems. You can learn where gaps are where you can armor or backdash where as before you thought you were locked down. Rinse and repeat.

So both really; study the data up front (because this can actually help you pick a character as knowing their frames can help you decipher their play style and intended design and whether it's a fit for you), and then as you play more slowly learn more and more frames and matchups.

I didn't get into just exploring more general move properties like high mid low and overhead, but it sounds like you're experienced enough to understand how and why those things are relevant.

Hopefully this helped and if I can clarify anything else let me know.
 

Cashual

PSN: Cansuela
One thing I want to add though is that knowing frame data leads to various mind games too. Not everyone either knows frame data (even for the characters they play) or people may know it, but disrespect frames and take risks anyway.

So it's funny, against certain people that just do shit without regard for these nuances, it's almost irrelevant how well you know your own data, because the opponent isn't going to behave in such a way that is logical given the frames (mashing d1 after being -7 or something), so in that case you can almost overthink it and maybe play too conservatively.

On the other hand, some exceptional players and lab monster frame savants will know that you know the frames and will purposefully do shit that is fraudulent because they're banking on you respecting the frames. Delicate balancing act, and this is where conditioning comes into play.

Like if I'm kitana and I have been doing 21 which is plus into a follow up d3 check (which will beat most if not all other normals) a few times, and maybe the first time you tried to push buttons and my d3 lands and I continue my offense, then the second time you respect the d3 and block it, but maybe the fourth time you block it and I follow the d3 with some dp and float shenanigans and you eat the combo.

Now, you're shook, and me knowing that, maybe I 21 into a slight step back b2 overhead or a f22 string. So in those cases you could have had time to poke me after the 21 because I'm using buttons after that can be beaten out by pokes or fast normals but you don't because you know the 21 is plus and are expecting the d3 again.

You can see how knowing frame data really opens up a whole new level of strategy and reads and whatnot. Honestly, until you start to understand frame data, hit and hurtboxes, hit advantage on block whiff and hit, etc. you're not really playing the game so much as learning combos and trying to land them. A lot of people take the time to grind execution and figure out how to get damage, but they never get to a point of actually getting into the meta.
 

RNLDRGN

RONALD ROGAN
I'd say focusing on what your + strings/normals/specials are and what your most punishable strings/normals/specials are is key first. Then you can worry about what your fastest punishes are vs characters who abuse negative attacks. Then learn some frame traps and ways to armor through frame traps.

I think frame data is more important than combos tbh. Combos are nice, but if you never land that huge 45% wombo combo you've been practicing for days then it's kind of useless. I've seen much more fundamentally (and frame data) aware players do much better with very simple combos.
 

UPR_Nova

Noob
So I've been playing NRS games with the FGC since MK 9. Over the course of those years, I've improved my game immensely via sharpening my fundamentals, working on improving my reaction times a little bit, and improving my execution some.

However, the one thing that I've known to have always been my Achilles' Heel is my lack of frame data knowledge. During my years playing, I had always focused more on learning combos and tech. Never did I take the time to sit down and really look at and study the frame data. This resulted in me letting plenty of actions that my opponents have made go unpunished.

With Injustice 2 around the corner, I would like to change that.

However, I'm not entirely sure how to begin. So I was hoping to ask some of the higher level folks how they approach studying the frame data for a fresh new game. Do you take the time and just study all of the data or do you wait to encounter something in a match and then try to figure out its data?
I can answer from a high-ish perspective. I personally go by feel until I find something "odd." For example, something that seems extremely negative but I can't consistently punish. I'll take it to the lab and figure it out. Once I get a grip on strings and specials, I look at the pokes. Who has crazy negative pokes, who dies on whiff that I can bait out, who am I forced to challenge with a poke rather than a string, when this character does his +12 stuff what does that mean for him and and for me, and so forth. After all that, it gets engrained into feel and it's about adapting from there.

From an MK9 perspective (a game I actually traveled to majors for), I knew everything. What characters can challenge this string or normal and in EXACTLY what way? Can I exploit a character because although they have a 7 frame button, it's high? The really small stuff can give you an advantage but the fundamentals are still the most important in my opinion. Reason why I did nothing but a tied for 37th finish; bad footsies and poor reads along with nervousness from lack of experience.

The time frame for all of that is dependent upon the person, as is the order. Some jump in the lab and study which is what I plan to do in I2. Some play hundreds of matches and work it out on their own, hitting the lab for tech and the aforementioned "oddities" along the way. Find your comfort zone and grind away because it's not all fun when you're getting that in depth at a competitive level. If you're wanting to travel and actually compete you WILL have off days and days that are a drag. I'm not sure of your goals with I2 so do what you find fun and go from there!
 

GGA Max

Well-Known Member
I like having a general intuition about what punishes what... in igau there are more to moves than just punishing on block, there's armor involved, whiff punishing... many things are un punishable on block, and what's frustrating is I don't think you can buffer normals, or at least not very much, kinda tough when you need to be perfect on frame.

Anyway most moves I can tell it's strengths and weaknesses and can adjust mid match, there are a few things I'll have to lab. As long as you know your own characters data.