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Starfire Patch Needs and Wishes

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
Let me make one thing clear, this character is already great and honestly doesn't really need too much. However, she does still have her problems (that's not a bad thing) that I would like her to get resolved so she goes from good to better. This is also in hopes NRS sees this and takes these changes into consideration.

NEEDS:


- Increased hit and cancel advantage on her d1

Her D1 was nerfed in the Raiden patch and I honestly feel these changes made were for the worse. Starfire is a character that relies on her D1 a lot because she has a slow mid and in its current state it is only +9 on hit so she can't jail her s2 which is 11 frames of startup, nor can she combo into MB db1 or a stage bounce anymore. Since they nerfed her damage to a more reasonable level, I see no reason why she can't have her old d1 back. If not MB db1, definitely let her combo into a stage bounce.


WISHES:

These changes are not needed but would be great to have.

-232 becomes a hard Knockdown
- S3 becomes 12 frames instead of 15
- S2 becomes 9 frames instead of 11
- 21 combos into MB Db1 midscreen (it already combos into the corner)
-S1 becomes 7 frames instead of 8

These are honestly here to help her up close a bit and make her corner combos more consistent because s3 is extremely clunky to land at max height after f3.

I apologize for previously asking for a d2 buff. @Espio helped shed some light on her amazing db3 which you can see here.

 
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Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
the d2 is ok i guess, i don't know about her buttons being better tho, i mean they're already pretty solid as it is, and her b3 is good enough to be used as a neutral tool soo, maybe a faster s2 would be ok, and i don't see a problem with 21 comboing into mb db1.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
I agree with @Invincible Salads about D2, I don't see any hitbox issue with it. All of the other buttons seem find too, the only thing I might agree with is S3, but then that is fine as it is.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
I agree with @Invincible Salads about D2, I don't see any hitbox issue with it. All of the other buttons seem find too, the only thing I might agree with is S3, but then that is fine as it is.
its not the hitbox issue, its the speed, its a really slow shitty d2. i mean it would be fine if they made it a lil faster, tho she already has so many anti air tools, i don't really know if that's the right answer, and yeah making her 21Mb db1 connect midscreen would be fine.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
its not the hitbox issue, its the speed, its a really slow shitty d2. i mean it would be fine if they made it a lil faster, tho she already has so many anti air tools, i don't really know if that's the right answer, and yeah making her 21Mb db1 connect midscreen would be fine.
Well @DarksydeDash was referring to the hitbox so I gave my two cents about it as well (and yeah I know he was also talking about the speed). But you do give a good point, Starfire already has several tools for Anti-Air so make one of them won't be necessary.
 

Tweedy

Noob
I think her weaknesses are fine. Top tiers should just be toned down a little.

I agree with @Invincible Salads about D2, I don't see any hitbox issue with it. All of the other buttons seem find too, the only thing I might agree with is S3, but then that is fine as it is.
What do you mean? Her d2 is definitely the worst anti airing d2 in the game. Like I said I think weaknesses are fine, but you definitely don't play the character if you see no issues with the hitbox.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
I think her weaknesses are fine. Top tiers should just be toned down a little.



What do you mean? Her d2 is definitely the worst anti airing d2 in the game. Like I said I think weaknesses are fine, but you definitely don't play the character if you see no issues with the hitbox.
i couldnt tell if it was a hitbox issue or a speed issue, alls i know is that her d2 is pretty ass.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
I think her weaknesses are fine. Top tiers should just be toned down a little.



What do you mean? Her d2 is definitely the worst anti airing d2 in the game. Like I said I think weaknesses are fine, but you definitely don't play the character if you see no issues with the hitbox.
I do play the character. I will admit I play her as my secondary to Sub-Zero so I don't play her as much as I play Sub. But from what I've seen her D2 is fine. Maybe I am wrong, but that's at least what I've seen.
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
@Invincible Salads And @Roy Arkon

Take Starfire Vs Batman in training mode and try to consistently d2 his j2 up close. If he is even slightly above your head you whiff completely and eat a combo. This is not just a batman specific issue.

If want video evidence of this problem, I'm happy to oblige.
 
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DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
How about we give her nothing and call it a day?

Really though, I don't see her needing anything.
That's fine, but asking for a better anti air up close and her d1 to work like.. The rest of the cast?

Both of these changes are things every member of the cast should have and are honestly fixes rather than buffs.
 
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Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
That's fine, but asking for a better anti air up close and her d1 to work like.. The rest of the cast?

Both of these changes are things every member of the cast should have and are honestly fixes rather than buffs.
Is this the new thing? To just call buffs fixes?

Asking to get full combos off of your d1 is not a fix, it's a major buff. Not every character can get full combos off of their d1s so not sure why you are saying every member of the cast should have it.

Her d2 isn't the greatest in the world but it's not like she's incompetent at anti-airing.
 
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DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
Is this the new thing? To just call buffs fixes?

Asking to get full combos off of your d1 is not a fix, it's a major buff. Not every character can get full combos off of their d1s so not sure why you are saying every member of the cast should have it.

Her d2 isn't the greatest in the world but it's not like she's incompetent at anti-airing.

Edit: Now that I actually look, full combo'ing off of d1's is something most characters don't have.
She originally had it so she could and they took that away with the raiden patch. They also took away her ability to combo d1 with stage bounce which every character Except Darkseid and her can do. This most likely was on accident.

So saying that comboing off d1s is "something that most of the cast can not do," is a lie.

You would know this if you bothered to read the thread or actually played the character.

You act like I'm asking for her to be borderline broken when characters like Swampthing can combo off a d1 and he's considered the worst in the game. What I am asking for is to have her old d1 back because she is a character who relies on that normal and since they nerfed her damage it probably won't reach over 28% meanwhile other characters get like 40% off a d1.

As for her anti air, that is something all characters should have as a reactionary
tool, and not on a read.

I am not asking for a damage buff, her f2 to be a mid, or anything ridiculous. I am only asking to give her what she should have and that includes her d1 combo ability.
 
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Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
She originally had it so she could and they took that away with the raiden patch. They also took away her ability to combo d1 with stage bounce which every character Except Darkseid and her can do. This most likely was on accident.

So saying that comboing off d1s is "something that most of the cast can not do," is a lie.

You would know this if you bothered to read the thread or actually played the character.

You act like I'm asking for her to be borderline broken when characters like Swampthing can combo off a d1 and he's considered the worst in the game. What I am asking for is to have her old d1 back because she is a character who relies on that normal and since they nerfed her damage it probably won't reach over 28% meanwhile other characters get like 40% off a d1.

As for her anti air, that is something all characters should have as a reactionary
tool, and not on a read.

I am not asking for a damage buff, her f2 to be a mid, or anything ridiculous. I am only asking to give her what she should have and that includes her d1 combo ability.
You are asking for buffs that I don't believe she needs, sorry that our opinions aren't the same. Oh wait that's right, I mean fixes, not buffs.
 

Espio

Back To Basics
Lead Moderator
As a Starfire player, I need you guys to figure out the current disconnect that is present.

You guys have match up charts where you say she BODIES the king of jumping around like a fool (Brainiac) simply because of her down back 3 so if her anti-air game is as good as people say it is, why does she need additional anti-air buffs? I'm not saying she does or doesn't, but you can't say she shuts down such a jump happy character 7-3 free then turn around and say she needs anti-air buffs.

I don't think the needs are actual "needs" at all especially if the character is "already great" if she's already great and only has some problems, she doesn't need buffs. That's nonsensical. A well balanced character should have reasonable pros and cons to using them. She can get a combo off her down 1 already for over 200 damage on Superman, this isn't a need either. Why do you need more than that?

She's a zoner so I don't think with her already fast six frame down 1 that she needs to have a faster standing 1, 2 or 3. She can already punish stuff with her six frame mid down 1 for great damage. Standing 3 goes over a lot of pokes and is neutral on block so she can harass after it's blocked anyway.
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
As a Starfire player, I need you guys to figure out the current disconnect that is present.

You guys have match up charts where you say she BODIES the king of jumping around like a fool (Brainiac) simply because of her down back 3 so if her anti-air game is as good as people say it is, why does she need additional anti-air buffs? I'm not saying she does or doesn't, but you can't say she shuts down such a jump happy character 7-3 free then turn around and say she needs anti-air buffs.

I don't think the needs are actual "needs" at all especially if the character is "already great" if she's already great and only has some problems, she doesn't need buffs. That's nonsensical. A well balanced character should have reasonable pros and cons to using them. She can get a combo off her down 1 already for over 200 damage on Superman, this isn't a need either. Why do you need more than that?

She's a zoner so I don't think with her already fast six frame down 1 that she needs to have a faster standing 1, 2 or 3. She can already punish stuff with her six frame mid down 1 for great damage. Standing 3 goes over a lot of pokes and is neutral on block so she can harass after it's blocked anyway.
Brainiac's jump ins are not upclose and can be reacted to. Once again, d2 and b2 in their current state are not a reactionary move when someone jumps in your face. Espio, you should know by now that if anything goes above her head she can't anti air them. Also, I'm asking for d1 to combo into stage bounce because, one, every other character except Darkseid for what ever reason has it and she had that with her MB db1. There is nothing wrong with giving her back what she originally had especially when she got a damage nerf to balance it out. Ivy, Deadshot, Fate, and your own character in Blue Beetle have advancing mids when they are zoners and Starfire's S2 is not advancing so that argument of yours doesn't make sense. But that doesn't matter because I have that as "wishes" not "needs."

The s3 frames reduced (which is also wishes) is just to help with corner combo consistency because female hit boxes are extremely hard to combo in the corner. It is not needed, but would be nice.

I am literally asking for an antiair up close and her old d1 back so she can link into a stage bounce.
 

Espio

Back To Basics
Lead Moderator
Brainiac's jump ins are not upclose and can be reacted to. Once again, d2 and b2 in their current state are not a reactionary move when someone jumps in your face. Espio, you should know by now that if anything goes above her head she can't anti air them. Also, I'm asking for d1 to combo into stage bounce because, one, every other character except Darkseid for what ever reason has it and she had that with her MB db1. There is nothing wrong with giving her back what she originally had especially when she got a damage nerf to balance it out. Ivy, Deadshot, Fate, and your own character in Blue Beetle have advancing mids when they are zoners and Starfire's S2 is not advancing so that argument of yours doesn't make sense. But that doesn't matter because I have that as "wishes" not "needs."

The s3 frames reduced (which is also wishes) is just to help with corner combo consistency because female hit boxes are extremely hard to combo in the corner. It is not needed, but would be nice.

I am literally asking for an antiair up close and her old d1 back so she can link into a stage bounce.
It's not a need, it's a want and did you maybe consider that her not being as good at anti-airing up close is because of how much range DP occupies in front of her? People have to get past her zoning and get past her ranged DP and what not, why should they not be rewarded by being able to make her hold something? It seems like a logical balance based weakness.

Every character does not need the same tools, I don't understand why everyone's balance arguments central around, "well so and so has it so I should have it" as if that's a good point.

I see we're not reading correctly because nobody said standing 2 was an advancing mid so no your response makes no sense. I stated as a zoner she already has fast enough buttons so instead of being defensive, you should read more clearly as opposed to seeing what you want to see.
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
It's not a need, it's a want and did you maybe consider that her not being as good at anti-airing up close is because of how much range DP occupies in front of her? People have to get past her zoning and get past her ranged DP and what not, why should they not be rewarded by being able to make her hold something? It seems like a logical balance based weakness.

Every character does not need the same tools, I don't understand why everyone's balance arguments central around, "well so and so has it so I should have it" as if that's a good point.

I see we're not reading correctly because nobody said standing 2 was an advancing mid so no your response makes no sense. I stated as a zoner she already has fast enough buttons so instead of being defensive, you should read more clearly as opposed to seeing what you want to see.
Your argument was that "she's a zoner and doesn't need a faster 1 2 or 3. 2 is her mid and doesn't advance. I was using advancing mid from other zoner to give an example that a faster mid change would not be that big of deal since her's does not advance. But once again, that change is a wish, not a need or a want.

Also, I realize shooting star is a godlike anti air and she doesn't need a d2 buff. That said, I still don't see a problem with her getting at least d1 into stage bounce back.