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Something wrong with mk11 - Archetypes

That sounds like terrible design, or am I crazy? There shouldn’t exist excellent at everything characters in a game with characters balanced around one or two strengths and specific weaknesses. Jack-of-all-trades should be masters of none.
name me 1 fighting game where there are none
 

Samsara

Resident Cynic
NRS character designs often lack a clear gameplay goal in mind. Characters either have tools that dont line up with their apparent gameplan OR have extra tools beyond what they need. Lack of focus and expertise is what it comes down to. They couldnt play a character straight if they tried because they barely understand core fundamentals themselves. They're big brand redesign for MK11 was

"Look guys you can whiff punish now. FOOTSIES in a MK game!!! POG!"

I mean come on. MK games are gimmicky fun and it's clear that they tried way to hard in MK11 for it to be "back to basics" and still missed the mark.

Someone said a while ago that it feels like characters were designed in separate rooms with no idea what the overall design plan was.

That's why Sonya was playing MKX at launch while other characters were starving.
 
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GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
The day people will understand that ED Jade has to play lame because it's all she can do, the world will be a better place.
They won't. People who still say that Jade is oh-so-amazing never labbed her and never will.
The fuckwits that attack me on this forum do it on impulse not because I'm wrong about anything or because they have a horse running in that race. They just need to jump the gun with some petty shit because that's literally the only way they can feel good about themselves.

Jade is bad. She has some of the worst tools in the game, some of the worst frame data and nothing she does makes sense from a design standpoint.
It is what it is.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
I think whats wrong is the idea character design should conform to archetypes.
I agree, but then the entire concept of how mk approaches game mechanics should also be re-evaluated because everything about this game revolves around archetypical cases aka matchups.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Except you have Jaded, which is a good, safe (pontentially plus) rushdown/stagger variation. Not dumb like erron or liu or sonya, but CERTAINLY not shit.
A high that's +3 on block for 1 bar and leads to no damage on hit. That's CERTAINLY great in a game of Erron or Liu or Sonya, yes.
 
A high that's +3 on block for 1 bar and leads to no damage on hit. That's CERTAINLY great in a game of Erron or Liu or Sonya, yes.
It jails from an 11f advancing 3 hit string into more pressure on block. Not that you should be looking at the isolated move alone anyways. It's the threat of run cancel/ cancel into +3 kick/ throw/stagger/low starter that keeps the opponent guessing, as I have said numerous times in detail (with demonstrable evidence from matches) in the Jaded thread. Also, Sonicfox's 2 day Jaded mopped Grr's Infinity Warden. It baffles me how some of the community seems so blatantly biased that Jade is shit when she is ok - could do with some fixes, but ok. I will happily (re)discuss this (even) further on the jade subsection if you wish.

Anyways, without further derailing this thread, I'd say Jade fits either a zoner or rushdown character with anti-zoning tools, much like reptile has been in the past games.

I don't think the character archetypes aren't varied in this game, it's just that the Jack of All Trades are too strong in some areas when they shouldnt be. Kabal is a good example of a do-all character - ok zoning, decent damage (only gets monstruous damage by giving up pressure and safe specials) and nice footsie tools. Sonya on the other hand gets ridiculous damage, staggers, 50/50s, safe strings and one of the fastest projectiles (with a KB lol) - so why the fuck bother with kabal?
 

Eldagrin

Add me on PS4 if you want to play some games
Jacqui has literally no zoning tools, and yet she's top tier because she's a pressure character and that's what she's good at. However, I do agree that before this patch, balance made it hard for archetypes to really thrive. Like Kano as a brawler was non-existent. They seem to have gotten it right, as of now, everyone mostly plays MK11 like it's meant to be played safe for Johnny who still whiffs like a mother and Jade who, I'm not really sure wtf Jade is supposed to be, honestly.

And Sonya who still can zone better than any real zoner, because it's Sonya so why not. Inb4 they give her shock nades and 30 hit combos into 90% damage.

Cetrion does not have good rushdown. Like at all.
I would say Cetrion is a better zoner than Sonya as someone who plays both of them. Cetrion may not be a “rush down” character, but her buttons and her ability to shimmy you and bully a lot of characters up close and in the mid range is what makes her top tier, not her zoning. She’s really good up close lol.
 

Vslayer

Kurses in moose
Lead Moderator
I would say Cetrion is a better zoner than Sonya as someone who plays both of them. Cetrion may not be a “rush down” character, but her buttons and her ability to shimmy you and bully a lot of characters up close and in the mid range is what makes her top tier, not her zoning. She’s really good up close lol.
Yeah, that's true, she can cancel into pinata or do the whole string or grab. Good point!
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Just as an aside, I think Jade is alright. She's nowhere near the top of the cast but I feel she's at the point of balance. I've been playing Jaded before the buffs, haven't had the time to pick up her 3rd variation but I remember using that loadout in the beta and it was fun
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Just as an aside, I think Jade is alright. She's nowhere near the top of the cast but I feel she's at the point of balance. I've been playing Jaded before the buffs, haven't had the time to pick up her 3rd variation but I remember using that loadout in the beta and it was fun
She has the right tools.
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
I would say Cetrion is a better zoner than Sonya as someone who plays both of them. Cetrion may not be a “rush down” character, but her buttons and her ability to shimmy you and bully a lot of characters up close and in the mid range is what makes her top tier, not her zoning. She’s really good up close lol.
11 bb 11 ff 11 bb 11 ff
I am just shocked that people think Jax "doesn't give you your turn back" when the option to poke out is always there. Poking back against a character with a slide for a dash, with twice the range on her hurtboxless jab, and a stupidly long range check that eats projectiles, which was buffed to be harder to flawless block, now that is just fucking oppression.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
I've seen this video, but it's not relevant to me - I play Jade. She's one of the characters in my line-up. I recognize she has faults, but you're always acting like she's bottom 2.
I don't think there is a worse character in the game now that Kano got treated right for once.
She doesn't have the frame data, the damage or the game plan to make her anything but bottom tier. I'm open to the possibility that someone is worse but I do think she's at least bottom 5.
 

Gamer68

Fujin!
Honestly I agree that NRS doesn't know archetypes.

I really like Terminator but trying to explain his archetype isn't simple. Sure, he's a "grappler" but I feel like when you hear that you start thinking about Zangief type characters. Slow, limited range, but heavy hitting.

That's true in some cases for Terminator, but at the same time he has an MKX-like run with 4 different options off of it including ANOTHER command grab, a shotgun that's basically a laser beam, and staggers that lead to a mix-up with tons of different options. And that's just for his second variation. His first one gives him a lunge that goes all the way across the screen and his third one gives him what are more-or-less Cyrax bombs.

Not exactly what you would expect when you think "grappler" in a game that is apparently about footsies and an honest neutral. Lets be real here; love it or hate it, NRS does not design characters with fighting game fundamentals and classic archetypes in mind.
 

Gojira Prime

Zoner Green Lantern for Injustice 3.
They won't. People who still say that Jade is oh-so-amazing never labbed her and never will.
The fuckwits that attack me on this forum do it on impulse not because I'm wrong about anything or because they have a horse running in that race. They just need to jump the gun with some petty shit because that's literally the only way they can feel good about themselves.

Jade is bad. She has some of the worst tools in the game, some of the worst frame data and nothing she does makes sense from a design standpoint.
It is what it is.
Jade was the character I lost to the most by a very very large margin until Shang became my main. Scorpion, Geras, Sonya were pretty easy/even. Before Shang it just felt like it was never my turn with jade, she was always throwing crap on screen. And no I never lab jade, I never lab anyone. I just learn as I play.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Lets be real here; love it or hate it, NRS does not design characters with fighting game fundamentals and classic archetypes in mind.
They used to. Mortal Kombat 9 has well-defined character archetypes. Some examples are listed below.

Cyrax - combos and set ups
Freddy - full screen zoning
Johnny Cage - frame traps and rush down
Kabal - jack of all trades
Kenshi - mid screen zoning
Kitana - footsies
Kung Lao - mobility and rush down
Smoke - anti-zoning

Injustice 1 has well-defined character archetypes too, albeit not to Mortal Kombat 11's extent.

As Slips keeps saying on the podcast, rush down has been severely weakened because 50/50 mix ups and block advantage are almost nonexistent. Traditional zoning has also been severely weakened by the new meter mechanics and the abundant teleports, reflectors, and moves that are immune to projectiles. So unless your character has a command throw, you are enforcing a basic strike and throw game with every single character. Throw properties (i.e., positioning, okizeme, krushing blows, etc.) as well as the speed of mid attacks are what separates characters and creates tiers more so than any other criteria.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Jade was the character I lost to the most by a very very large margin until Shang became my main. Scorpion, Geras, Sonya were pretty easy/even. Before Shang it just felt like it was never my turn with jade, she was always throwing crap on screen. And no I never lab jade, I never lab anyone. I just learn as I play.
Thank you for this.

This is an honest post.

Jade is indeed difficult to deal with if you don't look at her frame data and don't learn how to get in on her with about five minutes of lab work.
 

SixPathsOfHate

I identify as... I dont care. :D
MKX did it better.
There were variations that served their purpose and a few that were just straight up meh. Even ones that were really out there like Ethereal Mileena or Necro Shinnok could be used with some success. The game was fun, fast paced and every way of play was viable by the end of MKX's life. While MK11 isnt at the end of it's life, the game is already feeling very stale and lackluster compared to it's counterparts. Characters felt different, I cant think of a single character that felt the exact same as another character.

Variations feeling like they were thrown together with little thought.
Adding custom variations and using it in marketing as some sort of plow to get people excited only to not make it competitive.
Characters feeling super 1D and generally just blander all the way around. Seriously, the only interesting character in MK11 for me is Kollector. Everybody else feels so damn meh, the 2 baby characters they brought back were the worst of the 4 and they replaced Shinnok with Cetrion who feels more like a Injustice character than a MK one.

Honestly if they had just brought back all the mini games from the previous MK games instead of doing towers than I would reinstall just for that.
 

Darth Mao

Your Tech is Mine! #buffRaiden
Your entire original post is invalid because you did not say Outtake Cage is top 1 in the game, the best character.

Sonic, Tweedy, Rye, Kombat Kompetitor MikeMetroid and all cage players literally say "he's dumb" on literally every tweet and stream they appear, for like a month. Rewind just posted a tier list on twitter with Cage number 2 in the entire game, after Cetrion.

He is the archetype of having a d1 into a safe special that does 12% for 1 bar and literally deletes from the character select screen 20 characters out of 27, and the rest of the 7 he outzones with the balls into a minimum 6-4 matchup.

He literally has no weakness, everything safe, the biggest neutral range in the entire game and 50% percent unbreakable from constant plus frames and pressure. The best anti air in the game with s1 and the best d4 in the game from which he gets to start his 124 corner infinite blockstring and godlike staggers on which you have to guess 20/20/20/20/20

I literally stopped enjoying this game after the patch and uninstalled it.

I am literally baffled NRS doesn't hotfix the game already and makes all his moves whiff entirely and -9 on all strings and amplified specials.
Tournaments are dominated by him and he's literally at least 4 places in every top 8, making the game look like a joke to the non nrs players.
Really? In every possible thread?
 

PeNNyw1ZE_TDC

Master level Noob
Every fighting game has this problem. There will always be characters that just have everything. Whether it's to sell copies, odd balancing choices, or the devs just wanting certain characters that way. There is certainly no one in this game as annoying as GT Goku