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Something wrong with mk11 - Archetypes

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
NRS are taking steps in game balance which is good news but I think we need a bit more than nerfing something that people whine about loudly enough.
At this point I'm fairly convinced that if we complained loudly enough about Kano he'd get nerfed which is a bit ridiculous.

Also, I realise that the thing I'm about to bring up is not the only problem with the game, I think it's just the biggest.
So let's put the advancing mids into big damage, fatal-and krushing blows, the poke - and - throw meta and such problems aside and focus on the fundamental character design of the game.

People wanted that third variation and now that it's out, many are surprised that the first two is better.
Why are you surprised?

It's insanely hard to balance a variation system like this. The semblance of game balance where 15 characters are competitive with at least one variation and the remainder are all capable of doing okay in some matchups is a huge deal. The army of people creating and maintaining this game deserves huge props and thanks because it's godlike as is.

But if the game has one big issue, it is its diversity. You see, it's really hard to keep it fresh with over two dozens of characters, each of them with three variations, all of which need to be somewhat unique and different from one another.

At the same time, this diversity-prone variation blunder is what's really the biggest weakness of the game. Look at the top tiers. Sonya, Liu, Kabal, Geras, Erron, they all have both a fast mid and excellent zoning and then on top of that they also have their own shtick, grappling or mixups or whatever else. And huge damage, too.
What archetype is Sonya when her zoning and rushdown are both basically top 3?
What archetype is Geras when he's a grappler with a fullscreen low that belongs in a zoner's toolkit?
Don't get me wrong, Cetrion is a real zoner... but then why is her rushdown so good?

So the question is whether characters should be like these guys ^, no weaknesses and some specific strengths, or more like the weaker characters and excel in one thing and suck at the rest?
I don't even know which one I'd really prefer, but something needs to happen to those characters that aren't doing well.
Right now, I'm just not enjoying this game.
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
I think a lot of the frustration comes from NRS approaching initial design and balance with the mentality of "what would be COOL?" rather than "what makes SENSE?".

Generally there is nothing wrong with that, that approach has its place, but in a game like MK11 which was pushed so hard as a fairer, more honest games, A LOT of their decisions end up really jarring. Your examples of Sonya and Geras illustrate that. Don't really agree with Cetrion as I don't think her rushdown is THAT good - it's simple and effective, yes, but generally easy to deal with for most characters.

A lot of design choices in this game don't make sense, and the patches just add to the confusion. Why did Kotal go from alleged bottom tier to doing the most damage, having the most health and having god-tier reach?

On the flipside, why did Shang Tsung get his damage nerfed? Because he's a zoner? Pretty sure Skarlet can do like 32% meterless, and she's a zoner.

I still enjoy the game but I have found that just accepting things as they are is better than beating myself up about them. Really, I'm convinced their "Wheel of Chaos" has a spot on their QA and balancing team.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Your entire original post is invalid because you did not say Outtake Cage is top 1 in the game, the best character.

Sonic, Tweedy, Rye, Kombat Kompetitor MikeMetroid and all cage players literally say "he's dumb" on literally every tweet and stream they appear, for like a month. Rewind just posted a tier list on twitter with Cage number 2 in the entire game, after Cetrion.

He is the archetype of having a d1 into a safe special that does 12% for 1 bar and literally deletes from the character select screen 20 characters out of 27, and the rest of the 7 he outzones with the balls into a minimum 6-4 matchup.

He literally has no weakness, everything safe, the biggest neutral range in the entire game and 50% percent unbreakable from constant plus frames and pressure. The best anti air in the game with s1 and the best d4 in the game from which he gets to start his 124 corner infinite blockstring and godlike staggers on which you have to guess 20/20/20/20/20

I literally stopped enjoying this game after the patch and uninstalled it.

I am literally baffled NRS doesn't hotfix the game already and makes all his moves whiff entirely and -9 on all strings and amplified specials.
Tournaments are dominated by him and he's literally at least 4 places in every top 8, making the game look like a joke to the non nrs players.
 

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
Your entire original post is invalid because you did not say Outtake Cage is top 1 in the game, the best character.

Sonic, Tweedy, Rye, Kombat Kompetitor MikeMetroid and all cage players literally say "he's dumb" on literally every tweet and stream they appear, for like a month. Rewind just posted a tier list on twitter with Cage number 2 in the entire game, after Cetrion.

He is the archetype of having a d1 into a safe special that does 12% for 1 bar and literally deletes from the character select screen 20 characters out of 27, and the rest of the 7 he outzones with the balls into a minimum 6-4 matchup.

He literally has no weakness, everything safe, the biggest neutral range in the entire game and 50% percent unbreakable from constant plus frames and pressure. The best anti air in the game with s1 and the best d4 in the game from which he gets to start his 124 corner infinite blockstring and godlike staggers on which you have to guess 20/20/20/20/20

I literally stopped enjoying this game after the patch and uninstalled it.

I am literally baffled NRS doesn't hotfix the game already and makes all his moves whiff entirely and -9 on all strings and amplified specials.
Tournaments are dominated by him and he's literally at least 4 places in every top 8, making the game look like a joke to the non nrs players.
Cage downplayers are the worst amirite fam. "Whiffs on half the cast" - lol you know what doesnt whiff on half the cast? d1 rising star #top1confirmed
 

Inzzane_79

Every time someone farts, a demon gets his wings
Your entire original post is invalid because you did not say Outtake Cage is top 1 in the game, the best character.

Sonic, Tweedy, Rye, Kombat Kompetitor MikeMetroid and all cage players literally say "he's dumb" on literally every tweet and stream they appear, for like a month. Rewind just posted a tier list on twitter with Cage number 2 in the entire game, after Cetrion.

He is the archetype of having a d1 into a safe special that does 12% for 1 bar and literally deletes from the character select screen 20 characters out of 27, and the rest of the 7 he outzones with the balls into a minimum 6-4 matchup.

He literally has no weakness, everything safe, the biggest neutral range in the entire game and 50% percent unbreakable from constant plus frames and pressure. The best anti air in the game with s1 and the best d4 in the game from which he gets to start his 124 corner infinite blockstring and godlike staggers on which you have to guess 20/20/20/20/20

I literally stopped enjoying this game after the patch and uninstalled it.

I am literally baffled NRS doesn't hotfix the game already and makes all his moves whiff entirely and -9 on all strings and amplified specials.
Tournaments are dominated by him and he's literally at least 4 places in every top 8, making the game look like a joke to the non nrs players.
Who spit in your coffee dude?
 

NickDaGreek1983

Oh, my days !
  1. the mk11 balance is just fine and nrs did their Best job to date.
  2. 80% of the characters have ONE good/great variation and some times the nrs logic behind deciding which moves are to be the base of a character and which aren't doesn't make sense.
  3. The f4 Liu nerf & the teleport Scorpion nerf were products of people whining and spamming forums and social media pages because of the characters' popularity. If people played more Kollektors or Kotal Kahns, they would find sth to cry about while Kabal, Cetrion and especially Sonya, all fly under the crybaby radar (hopefuly for now)
  4. we should be thankful our favourite game has THIS MUCH content apart from playing online p v p.
Finally 5) we needed more combo strings per character. Having 2 to 5 useable strings in a match is lamer than using mk9 smoke.
 

Vslayer

Kurses in moose
Lead Moderator
Jacqui has literally no zoning tools, and yet she's top tier because she's a pressure character and that's what she's good at. However, I do agree that before this patch, balance made it hard for archetypes to really thrive. Like Kano as a brawler was non-existent. They seem to have gotten it right, as of now, everyone mostly plays MK11 like it's meant to be played safe for Johnny who still whiffs like a mother and Jade who, I'm not really sure wtf Jade is supposed to be, honestly.

And Sonya who still can zone better than any real zoner, because it's Sonya so why not. Inb4 they give her shock nades and 30 hit combos into 90% damage.

Cetrion does not have good rushdown. Like at all.
 

S+ Main

Noob
Your entire original post is invalid because you did not say Outtake Cage is top 1 in the game, the best character.

Sonic, Tweedy, Rye, Kombat Kompetitor MikeMetroid and all cage players literally say "he's dumb" on literally every tweet and stream they appear, for like a month. Rewind just posted a tier list on twitter with Cage number 2 in the entire game, after Cetrion.

He is the archetype of having a d1 into a safe special that does 12% for 1 bar and literally deletes from the character select screen 20 characters out of 27, and the rest of the 7 he outzones with the balls into a minimum 6-4 matchup.

He literally has no weakness, everything safe, the biggest neutral range in the entire game and 50% percent unbreakable from constant plus frames and pressure. The best anti air in the game with s1 and the best d4 in the game from which he gets to start his 124 corner infinite blockstring and godlike staggers on which you have to guess 20/20/20/20/20

I literally stopped enjoying this game after the patch and uninstalled it.

I am literally baffled NRS doesn't hotfix the game already and makes all his moves whiff entirely and -9 on all strings and amplified specials.
Tournaments are dominated by him and he's literally at least 4 places in every top 8, making the game look like a joke to the non nrs players.
this inspired me to play Johnny 'top 1 in game' cage
 

NothingPersonal

Are you not entertained!?
Imma block you for a while, cause usually you're not that annoying, but when you make a post that I have logical counterarguments against and know that whatever they are you won't accept them cause feelings, I get frustrated. Also most of your post are negative anyway, so imma take a break.
 

NothingPersonal

Are you not entertained!?
On topic, in a custom charaters based game, there shouldn't really exist preset archetypes, the player should be able to create his own. Which is the biggest problem of MKX and MK11 - the base charater. Whatever the custom moves are, if the bade charater is bad, they won't help more iften than not, and viceversa. Jade, for example, having glow as base kit, doesn't matter what archetype they make her variation, but she's always gonna be an antizoner too. Kitana, as of recently, no matter what will have air combos and you can't jump at etc.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
On topic, in a custom charaters based game, there shouldn't really exist preset archetypes, the player should be able to create his own. Which is the biggest problem of MKX and MK11 - the base charater.
I fully agree, but I did say in the OP that I don't really want to discuss the 9f mids and the likes, which this point inevitably leads to.
We know, shit's bad.

Whatever the custom moves are, if the bade charater is bad, they won't help more iften than not, and viceversa.
Precisely. I think too many powerful tools are variation-dependent and that ruins game balance overall because of the excuse that "but it's variation-exclusive" while the move itself is pretty dumb. Air Glaive is one of those, though Jade has so many issues that it's not as compelling of a tool.

I think the character's core should include its most prevalent tools and variations should be more of a playstyle / flavour thing. There is literally no reason for Glaive and Air Glaive to be separate when Scorpion's teleport and Air teleport are the same thing and that's a fucking launcher.

Jade, for example, having glow as base kit, doesn't matter what archetype they make her variation, but she's always gonna be an antizoner too.
Bad example.
  1. Glow is so bad this time around that it's often just not worth using. Sonya, Shang, Cetrion and Frost are among the characters who can literally just wreck Jade for using Glow at all. It needs to be 20f instead of 45 and immune to zoning, period.
  2. The new variation doesn't even have Glow.
Kitana, as of recently, no matter what will have air combos and you can't jump at etc.
Seriously considering picking her up until Jade stops being so bad.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Your entire original post is invalid because you did not say Outtake Cage is top 1 in the game, the best character.

Sonic, Tweedy, Rye, Kombat Kompetitor MikeMetroid and all cage players literally say "he's dumb" on literally every tweet and stream they appear, for like a month. Rewind just posted a tier list on twitter with Cage number 2 in the entire game, after Cetrion.

He is the archetype of having a d1 into a safe special that does 12% for 1 bar and literally deletes from the character select screen 20 characters out of 27, and the rest of the 7 he outzones with the balls into a minimum 6-4 matchup.

He literally has no weakness, everything safe, the biggest neutral range in the entire game and 50% percent unbreakable from constant plus frames and pressure. The best anti air in the game with s1 and the best d4 in the game from which he gets to start his 124 corner infinite blockstring and godlike staggers on which you have to guess 20/20/20/20/20

I literally stopped enjoying this game after the patch and uninstalled it.

I am literally baffled NRS doesn't hotfix the game already and makes all his moves whiff entirely and -9 on all strings and amplified specials.
Tournaments are dominated by him and he's literally at least 4 places in every top 8, making the game look like a joke to the non nrs players.
I didn't bring that up because it's so early on into the patch that we just don't know. Yeah he seems stupid right now.
We'll see.
 

Pterodactyl

Plus on block.
Sonya, Geras types make sense to me when you consider them an "everything" archetype that have few, if any weaknesses.
That sounds like terrible design, or am I crazy? There shouldn’t exist excellent at everything characters in a game with characters balanced around one or two strengths and specific weaknesses. Jack-of-all-trades should be masters of none.