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So... Why Did Zoning Suck in MKX?

M2Dave

Zoning Master
True unfuzzyable safe 50/50s, one of the best wakeups in the game (EX Hellspike), Invincible EX tele, Nightmare Stance (which gave multiple options in itself)???
EX spikes and NMS had limited wake up invincibility frames. EX teleport was very good, though.

I think I could have done a better job implementing b+2 and b+3 into my footsies game, but you had to spend a bar to make the 50/50 mix up safe, and remember that in Mortal Kombat 9 meter is earned at a much slower rate than in Injustice 1 and Mortal Kombat X and mostly on multiple blocked strings, something Freddy did not have.

As far as this thread is concerned, the answer is running. Nothing else needs to be said. I predict that some Mortal Kombat X players will struggle against zoning in the first couple of weeks but will adapt later. In Mortal Kombat X, the run was more or less a full screen dash.
 
EX spikes and NMS had limited wake up invincibility frames. EX teleport was very good, though.

I think I could have done a better job implementing b+2 and b+3 into my footsies game, but you had to spend a bar to make the 50/50 mix up safe, and remember that in Mortal Kombat 9 meter is earned at a much slower rate than in Injustice 1 and Mortal Kombat X and mostly on multiple blocked strings, something Freddy did not have.

As far as this thread is concerned, the answer is running. Nothing else needs to be said. I predict that some Mortal Kombat X players will struggle against zoning in the first couple of weeks but will adapt later. In Mortal Kombat X, the run was more or less a full screen dash.
happy to see M2dave waking up now that some injustice 2 characters caught his attention.

why did zoning suck?
1) f'ing run button
2) screen size
3) insane mobility

4) Longer answer: It has to do with accounting for all of your opponents options in neutral/full screen. In most fighting games, a reactive defensive player is constantly cycling their opponents options through their head. This was near impossible to do in MKX because you have to worry/think about a million things in neutral (all of which usually led to full combos and standing resets).
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
I followed you until the moment you started to talk like zoning is harder than rushdown tbh it depends on the game you ll have a hard time making me believe that zoning with let's say Morrigan in MvC3 is harder than rushing down with someone else at the end of the day it depends on the game no strategy is superior also you have to understand that Zoning is not a popular strategy so you ll have less people focusing on it so less people being great at it
It is depending on the match up and situation. MK X or any MK game or game with a big dash, running option it's easy to put pressure. Anyone can get in your face. Without it, it's still possible but more difficult. On rushing down, depends on the game. Example, MK X it's way easier to do than MK 9(obviously) just like zoning is easier to do and more viable in MK 9 than MK X. Like you said, depends on the game. I'm just talking in general here and regarding MK specifically, you start talking about other games it's different then. I get that but not everyone is exactly a fan of rushdown, 50/50's and frame traps either...


What are you talking about?
Exactly what I said, that there's nothing braindead about legit zoning. Not directed at you(namely those who hate on zoning) No worries, I agree with you more than disagree. I just get tired of seeing people put down zoning as if it's "cheating" or not legit or something.
 

Wigy

There it is...
What would people consider a skillful zoning character in mk9 or injustice.

I can think only think of a few and they werent the ones people generally played
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Wigy, MK 9? Sektor? Ermac? both were mid tier. Stryker who we all know is low. They took skill to zone. Just because Kenshi was OP with zoning doesn't mean everyone else is.

Injustice 1, Hawkgirl(I've outzoned Deathstrokes and we all know the drill with him), Black Adam, Harley, GL?
 

Wigy

There it is...
Wigy, MK 9? Sektor? Ermac? both were mid tier. Stryker who we all know is low. They took skill to zone. Just because Kenshi was OP with zoning doesn't mean everyone else is.

Injustice 1, Hawkgirl(I've outzoned Deathstrokes and we all know the drill with him), Black Adam, Harley, GL?
Sektor was barely a zoner.
Ermac was barely tournament viable and definitely not a zoner
Striker was barely a character

(Hard to actually comment on tournament viablility cause it was so warped by 5-6 characters)

Shang was an actual skilful keep out and viable.

The rest were mindless, you just have to hold this and duck walk.

Injustice, i didnt play enough but from what i watched black adam wasnt really a keep out zoner, nor was harley? I could be totally wrong

We're saying mkx zoning is dead and all the skillful zoners you've mentioned were characters that arent really zoners or were barely viable, if at all (IMO). Which means you've got mindless hold that zoning characters or poopers.

Mkx had good zoning tools, you just had to make more hard reads to keep em out.

The final version of the game sure as hell did. A lot of the top tier characters just had good answers to zoning, then some have absolutely no answer.

Injustice zoning was particularly fucking aids with unblockable interactable abuse. Not skillful in the slightest.
 
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MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Sektor was barely a zoner.
Ermac was barely tournament viable and definitely not a zoner
Striker was barely a character

(Hard to actually comment on tournament viablility cause it was so warped by 5-6 characters)

Shang was an actual skilful keep out and viable.

The rest were mindless, you just have to hold this and duck walk.

Injustice, i didnt play enough but from what i watched black adam wasnt really a keep out zoner, nor was harley? I could be totally wrong

We're saying mkx zoning is dead and all the skillful zoners you've mentioned were characters that arent really zoners or were barely viable, if at all (IMO). Which means you've got mindless hold that zoning characters or poopers.

Mkx had good zoning tools, you just had to make more hard reads to keep em out.

The final version of the game sure as hell did. A lot of the top tier characters just had good answers to zoning, then some have absolutely no answer.

Injustice zoning was particularly fucking aids with unblockable interactable abuse. Not skillful in the slightest.
Sektor could do everything, not barely a zoner. I did it with him all the time....

Shang could keep out but wasn't a known zoning character....

Ermac being tournament viable is irrelevant, he was a mid tier character who could zone and actually took effort to do so as oppose to Kenshi.

Stryker being barely a character again, irrelevant to my point. Don't believe me ask @CRKFIEND he was a boss with him and I saw him zone out many matches online. Just because a character is lower tier doesn't mean they couldn't zone or weren't capable.

They weren't mindless, you just are bad at getting in and fighting zoning. That's not our problem, you need to practice or work on your game. I got in on Noobs ALL the time with Ermac, Sektor, Scorpion etc If you didn't play Injustice with all due respect then how do you know then? lol I played it, Black Adam could zone you out. I've played solid Black Adam players who did, he had set ups and zoning tools.

Actually yeah they are Ermac, Sektor are very zoney characters in MK 9....I zoned with them all the time. It's not mindless to win by zoning, what's mindless are those who call zoning mindless because the reality is they just suck against zoning...

MK X has shitty zoning tools, especially compared to MK 9 and Injustice 1 and I2 for that matter just from what we've seen so far, sorry but majority disagree with you here. When there's a RUN in your face instant option, and you get PENALIZED for backdashing there is NO zoning viability. Period. I disagree, Injustice's zoning may have been more easier than MK 9, MK X etc but wasn't not skillful. What's not skillful are people who abuse easy resets, partials, frame traps and braindead 50/50's up close...
 
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UGL Preon

The Casual God
Limited to 2 consecutive backdashes
Advancing armor that goes through projectiles (Some with 2 hits)
Half the cast having a teleport that can punish an anticipated projectile
The Oki in MKX is crazier than pitching Crazy Taxi to a group of executives

All of the MKX Zoning was fine on paper. Some may say even good when you look at Pyromancer / Kitana and others on paper. But in a game with Overheads, Lows, Loverhead starters. Rushdown, Oki, are just so easy to overwhelm your opponent with.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Limited to 2 consecutive backdashes
Advancing armor that goes through projectiles (Some with 2 hits)
Half the cast having a teleport that can punish an anticipated projectile
The Oki in MKX is crazier than pitching Crazy Taxi to a group of executives

All of the MKX Zoning was fine on paper. Some may say even good when you look at Pyromancer / Kitana and others on paper. But in a game with Overheads, Lows, Loverhead starters. Rushdown, Oki, are just so easy to overwhelm your opponent with.
And the run element also nullifies defense, zoning and being able to breath. lol The run mechanic is a serious game changer.
 

Wigy

There it is...
Sektor could do everything, not barely a zoner. I did it with him all the time....

Ermac being tournament viable is irrelevant, he was a mid tier character who could zone and actually took effort to do so as oppose to Kenshi.

Stryker being barely a character again, irrelevant to my point. Don't believe me ask @CRKFIEND he was a boss with him and I saw him zone out many matches online. Just because a character is lower tier doesn't mean they couldn't zone or weren't capable.

They weren't mindless, you just are bad at getting in and fighting zoning. That's not our problem, you need to practice or work on your game. I got in on Noobs ALL the time with Ermac, Sektor, Scorpion etc If you didn't play Injustice with all due respect then how do you know then? lol I played it, Black Adam could zone you out. I've played solid Black Adam players who did, he had set ups and zoning tools.

Actually yeah they are Ermac, Sektor are very zoney characters in MK 9....I zoned with them all the time. It's not mindless to win by zoning, what's mindless are those who call zoning mindless because the reality is they just suck against zoning...

MK X has shitty zoning tools, especially compared to MK 9 and Injustice 1 and I2 for that matter just from what we've seen so far, sorry but majority disagree with you here. When there's a RUN in your face instant option, and you get PENALIZED for backdashing there is NO zoning viability. Period. I disagree, Injustice's zoning may have been more easier than MK 9, MK X etc but wasn't not skillful. What's not skillful are people who abuse easy resets, partials, frame traps and braindead 50/50's up close...
You seem to be basing you opinions on online mk9...

If you get zoned out by stryker, you're garbage. Sektor could check you from fullscreen nicely but he couldnt rely on it as his game.

Ermac was not a zoning character. If you get zoned by him you were 100% doing something wrong. His zoning in mkx is probably better.

Kabal and kenshis zoning was completely mindless. Freddy just had a great options for absolutely everything so you had to make a hell of a lot more hard reads to get in that he did to keep you out.

Not to say i didnt get in, but with kenshi and kabal nothing about it required hard reads, the aggressor had to make alllll the hard reads and when you got in, it didnt matter.

Hell you remember the first evo with injustice, there was actually booing cause of how lame that laser spam was.
 
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MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
You seem to be basing you opinions on online mk9...

If you get zoned out by stryker, you're garbage. Sektor could check you from fullscreen nicely but he couldnt rely on it as his game.

Ermac was not a zoning character. If you get zoned by him you were 100% doing something wrong. His zoning in mkx is probably better.

Kabal and kenshis zoning was completely mindless. Freddy just had a great options for absolutely everything so you had to make a hell of a lot more hard reads to get in that he did to keep you out.

Not to say i didnt get in, but with kenshi and kabal nothing about it required hard reads, the aggressor had to make alllll the hard reads and when you got in, it didnt matter.

Hell you remember the first evo with injustice, there was actually booing cause of how lame that laser spam was.
I'm basing them off of fact of how the characters are played, and experience in general not just online. Even offline they're played the same way...

HA, try saying that after you play CRK's stryker in his prime and you'll think different. Sure, most Stryker players are easy because the character is low tier and Godforbid any known players use a low tier...but there are some talented, competitive online players who don't go to every tourney who can prove people wrong.

I'm living proof you can zone and keep out with Sektor, anyone who's played me will tell you. I was legit ranked 2nd on player match xbox leaderboard, mostly using Ermac and Sektor. There's been plenty of matches where I zoned out Reptile's, Kabal's, KL's with Sektor and trust me that is NOT easy...but it is possible, of course setting up with the seeking missiles and jump in 50/50's help too when need be but point is Sektor is one of the few versatile characters in MK 9 who you can literally do anything with, you can zone, you can rushdown, you can set up, do 50/50's etc, etc

Ermac is just a zoner in MK 9, period. Sure he had sweet combos but the character's archtype is made to keep you away, away, away. TK push, fast fireballs etc. MKX they limited that with one shitty variation, one meh variation and one decent one but with an inferior projectile. It stuns you on full charge but the start up is slower than MK 9's, less effective. If you don't know that by now then you didn't play good MK9 Ermac's much or know who the prime zoner characters were in the game. He just wasn't a TOP tier character so people ignored him or forgot but he could zone. Also done the same to KL's, Reptiles, Noobs etc I have vids proving such if you're skeptical. Now, again easy? No, possible? Yes. So you're wrong if you think Ermac wasn't a zoning character, he IS a zoning character and haha you're kidding right? Ermac's zoning is junk in MK X compared to MK 9....you'd feel differently if you played me in that game in my prime, let's put it this way. I could keep anyone out who I played, people had to pick top tiers to counter my Ermac, Sektor etc because mid to mid they'd get outzoned everytime.

Kenshi was OP, no argument there. Kabal was also OP and another character that you could rushdown, zone, frame trap cancels etc but he was also top tier...I could say the same for rushing down characters being braindead frame traps like Kabal, Cage, KL etc, etc

I don't disagree with you regarding Kenshi, Kabal being dumb OP or Injustice 1 being TOO zoney but with MK 9, it's a known fact the zoning was FAR better than MK X. Undeniable, inconceivable fact. No matter how you break it down, the tools to rushdown, pro offense, limited defensive and zoning options prove this. That being said, Ermac and Sektor could zone in MK X but not as well as MK 9 due to the game's mechanics.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Let's be honest, though -- ask any player of a top tier whether they were afraid of Freddy at close range. Or list the toolsets and frame data of Kung Lao, Cyrax, Cage, Kabal, Sonya etc. and see how many more options they have at that range.

The only successful way to play Freddy was to run away and keep people out, and that was evidenced in tournament as well.

Obviously compared to the lower tier is a different story, but that's the case for all of the characters at Freddy's level.
You can definitely argue some of those characters had more juice than Freddy up-close, but it hardly makes those tools I listed irrelevant. Overall it's like arguing you only have a bronze medal from the Olympics lol.

If Freddy was purely just about running/keeping people away, why didn't Freddy players feel compelled to replicate that success with say, Noob Saibot?


EX spikes and NMS had limited wake up invincibility frames. EX teleport was very good, though.

I think I could have done a better job implementing b+2 and b+3 into my footsies game, but you had to spend a bar to make the 50/50 mix up safe, and remember that in Mortal Kombat 9 meter is earned at a much slower rate than in Injustice 1 and Mortal Kombat X and mostly on multiple blocked strings, something Freddy did not have.

As far as this thread is concerned, the answer is running. Nothing else needs to be said. I predict that some Mortal Kombat X players will struggle against zoning in the first couple of weeks but will adapt later. In Mortal Kombat X, the run was more or less a full screen dash.
Every EX wake-up in MK9 had 20 invincibility frames by default (confirmed by the GOAT Somberness) and B33 into meterless spike was hit-confirmable was it not?
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
If Freddy was purely just about running/keeping people away, why didn't Freddy players feel compelled to replicate that success with say, Noob Saibot?
Because Noob Saibot's zoning was nowhere near as good as Freddy's. Noob Saibot also lacked armor and invincibility frames, which was a huge weakness for any character in Mortal Kombat 9 because of the flawed blocking mechanics.

Every EX wake-up in MK9 had 20 invincibility frames by default (confirmed by the GOAT Somberness) and B33 into meterless spike was hit-confirmable was it not?
I speak from experience when I say that wake up EX spikes were very inconsistent while wake up EX teleport was very consistent but lost to a perfectly-timed throw.

As far as Freddy's 50/50 mix ups are concerned, again, building meter in Mortal Kombat 9 is difficult for most zoning characters as blocked strings grant you significantly more meter than blocked fireballs, which rarely ever have to blocked in the first place as they hit high.
 

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
I'm living proof you can zone and keep out with Sektor, anyone who's played me will tell you. I was legit ranked 2nd on player match xbox leaderboard, mostly using Ermac and Sektor.
Why do you use online qualifications as a means to try and justify your points when they aren't even remotely valid? Being second on xbox player match didn't mean shit, a majority of players are terrible, and you only end up there as a result of winning a lot of matches, which isn't hard against scrubs.

And only further proving my point, you said you zoned out kabal's but if they were zoning too then they should beat you easily, and if they weren't, they should've been, because they would've made you have to come to them instead. Online in MK9 against randoms is a terrible way to base these things off.

they limited that with one shitty variation, one meh variation and one decent one but with an inferior projectile.
Did you really just say none of his variations are any better than "decent", and the one you think is decent is in fact his worst one? Mystic is one of the best variations in the game, and the threat of push is scarier than anything he had in MK9.
 

Wigy

There it is...
I'm basing them off of fact of how the characters are played, and experience in general not just online. Even offline they're played the same way...

HA, try saying that after you play CRK's stryker in his prime and you'll think different. Sure, most Stryker players are easy because the character is low tier and Godforbid any known players use a low tier...but there are some talented, competitive online players who don't go to every tourney who can prove people wrong.

I'm living proof you can zone and keep out with Sektor, anyone who's played me will tell you. I was legit ranked 2nd on player match xbox leaderboard, mostly using Ermac and Sektor. There's been plenty of matches where I zoned out Reptile's, Kabal's, KL's with Sektor and trust me that is NOT easy...but it is possible, of course setting up with the seeking missiles and jump in 50/50's help too when need be but point is Sektor is one of the few versatile characters in MK 9 who you can literally do anything with, you can zone, you can rushdown, you can set up, do 50/50's etc, etc

Ermac is just a zoner in MK 9, period. Sure he had sweet combos but the character's archtype is made to keep you away, away, away. TK push, fast fireballs etc. MKX they limited that with one shitty variation, one meh variation and one decent one but with an inferior projectile. It stuns you on full charge but the start up is slower than MK 9's, less effective. If you don't know that by now then you didn't play good MK9 Ermac's much or know who the prime zoner characters were in the game. He just wasn't a TOP tier character so people ignored him or forgot but he could zone. Also done the same to KL's, Reptiles, Noobs etc I have vids proving such if you're skeptical. Now, again easy? No, possible? Yes. So you're wrong if you think Ermac wasn't a zoning character, he IS a zoning character and haha you're kidding right? Ermac's zoning is junk in MK X compared to MK 9....you'd feel differently if you played me in that game in my prime, let's put it this way. I could keep anyone out who I played, people had to pick top tiers to counter my Ermac, Sektor etc because mid to mid they'd get outzoned everytime.

Kenshi was OP, no argument there. Kabal was also OP and another character that you could rushdown, zone, frame trap cancels etc but he was also top tier...I could say the same for rushing down characters being braindead frame traps like Kabal, Cage, KL etc, etc

I don't disagree with you regarding Kenshi, Kabal being dumb OP or Injustice 1 being TOO zoney but with MK 9, it's a known fact the zoning was FAR better than MK X. Undeniable, inconceivable fact. No matter how you break it down, the tools to rushdown, pro offense, limited defensive and zoning options prove this. That being said, Ermac and Sektor could zone in MK X but not as well as MK 9 due to the game's mechanics.
The topic of the thread is viability of zoning in different games. So tier list does count.

You're basing your opinions from online on an infamously horrific netcode against randoms. Not even vaguely interested.
 
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MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Why do you use online qualifications as a means to try and justify your points when they aren't even remotely valid? Being second on xbox player match didn't mean shit, a majority of players are terrible, and you only end up there as a result of winning a lot of matches, which isn't hard against scrubs.

And only further proving my point, you said you zoned out kabal's but if they were zoning too then they should beat you easily, and if they weren't, they should've been, because they would've made you have to come to them instead. Online in MK9 against randoms is a terrible way to base these things off.



Did you really just say none of his variations are any better than "decent", and the one you think is decent is in fact his worst one? Mystic is one of the best variations in the game, and the threat of push is scarier than anything he had in MK9.
You miss my point and clearly didn't read what I said then, again first off all they ARE valid as the same applies to both online and offline regarding the archtype of said characters. I'm not saying "because of online etc, etc" I've seen both used the same way in tourneys used offline as well as myself using them offline as with success. Actually it does mean shit when my TS was 34 and I've literally beaten everyone on there at some point both tourney and competitive, please don't run your mouth when you've never played me. Majority of players maybe you've played are terrible, but you never played me now have you? Wrong, lots of matches oh sure but not true skill. Why was my TS on par with that of tourney players on here then? Do explain. It was consistently 31-36 during my run on that game. The actual shitty players were 28 at best....

What point is that exactly? You're confusing tier rank with possibility of outzoning someone. Just because Kabal is higher than Sektor does not mean Sektor can't beat Kabal. You people keep saying "shouldn't have been" that's irrelevant heresay based off your personal theory, that's like saying "oh well this guy beat such and such player because he got lucky, but technically they shouldn't have" which I read a lot of during the time she has lost tourneys. It's an excuse in other words just because the odds are against someone or a character doesn't mean it's always true or winds up happening.

Mystic is not as good as Master of Souls, this has always been established. He gets less damage, his zoning is average at best, it's already been proven that his force push is unsafe compared to MK 9's on block and again it's due to the game's mechanics running....there was even breakdown vids on it. I'm not saying it's complete shit, but it's not as good as MK 9 Ermac zoning. And I'm not even going to talk about Spectral. Pretty sure 99% of Ermac players knows that variation is ass and that overall MOS is his best one. You're kidding right? I don't know one person who thinks Spectral is better than MOS. This is false, sorry.

The topic of the thread is viability of zoning in different games. So tier list does count.

You're basing your opinions from online on an infamously horrific netcode against randoms. Not even vaguely interested.
Again, no I'm not basing them off online exclusively. That's where I have most of my experience but again, Sektor and Ermac have been played offline at tourneys by others the same way I'm speaking with success as well as my own offline regarding such. The topic of the thread is zoning, like you said not tier lists....so I disagree. So you must think that because Sektor and Ermac are both mids, that they can't outzone say Cage because his tier is higher? This is flawed logic, up close he owns them sure, but anyone knows they both zone him better.
 

masherofbuttons

I'll mash out of +30 I know no fear
Mystic is not as good as Master of Souls, this has always been established. He gets less damage, his zoning is average at best, it's already been proven that his force push is unsafe compared to MK 9's on block and again it's due to the game's mechanics running....there was even breakdown vids on it. I'm not saying it's complete shit, but it's not as good as MK 9 Ermac zoning. And I'm not even going to talk about Spectral. Pretty sure 99% of Ermac players knows that variation is ass and that overall MOS is his best one. You're kidding right? I don't know one person who thinks Spectral is better than MOS. This is false, sorry.
.
Yeah I'm out
 

The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
Mystic is not as good as Master of Souls, this has always been established. He gets less damage, his zoning is average at best, it's already been proven that his force push is unsafe compared to MK 9's on block and again it's due to the game's mechanics running....there was even breakdown vids on it. I'm not saying it's complete shit, but it's not as good as MK 9 Ermac zoning. And I'm not even going to talk about Spectral. Pretty sure 99% of Ermac players knows that variation is ass and that overall MOS is his best one. You're kidding right? I don't know one person who thinks Spectral is better than MOS. This is false, sorry.
This guy's living in 2015