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So I got my ass kicked by a Kabal player....

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem

I'm making this thread because I want to understand what I did wrong. Specifically, I recognize that some of my decisions (to press buttons or not for ex) messed me up. However, is there something in my opponent's gameplay that I could have taken advantage of? Like was he pressing buttons when he shouldnt have? Is there a response to his air float ? What can I do to get out of the corner given that all of his strings are safe, have pushback and no gaps?

Any feedback is appreciated :D
 
There were a few times where you didn't take advantage of the frame date being in your favor. For example, after an amped buzzsaw, it is your turn as kabal is not plus on block. Regarding your offense, you need to throw way more with liu kang. Against a new opponent, its best to start throwing them a bunch at the start in order for them to get scared and start pressing. I would also stay away from the teleport cancel gimmick, especially against people who know how to deal with it. And the last thing I could mention is that you did low fireball a few times when you were directly in kabal's face but maybe that was an input error.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
There were a few times where you didn't take advantage of the frame date being in your favor. For example, after an amped buzzsaw, it is your turn as kabal is not plus on block. Regarding your offense, you need to throw way more with liu kang. Against a new opponent, its best to start throwing them a bunch at the start in order for them to get scared and start pressing. I would also stay away from the teleport cancel gimmick, especially against people who know how to deal with it. And the last thing I could mention is that you did low fireball a few times when you were directly in kabal's face but maybe that was an input error.
Ok so gotta watch out for amped buzzsaw & start throwing first to establish fear.
The teleport really was easily countered yea. I need like Luhan Quan or something to deal with this corner pressure
(low fireball were input errors)
Thanks for the feedback!
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
I'm probably not the best to answer this but I'll make some notes:

1. Just take the throw. You got whiff punished hard in round 1, one thing to consider here is that Kabal does not have extra mix in this loadout from his strings. He doesn't have low spinner, low hook grab, rolling saw or dash cancel. So you took that 470 damage combo by getting whiff punished with B12U2 and I know you have to take your turn eventually, but he would have had to throw you 4 times to get that damage. He can't just keep throwing AMP buzz saws and Kabal wants to punish you for pressing buttons in his range, that's one of his strengths. Make them work for it, you have to play differently against mixup command grab Baraka compared to big damage fundamentals Baraka.

So like at one point in the corner he did F22 stagger walk back. If he did F224 you would have had -2 and a flawless block chance(edit: this is propaganda, there is no flawless block), so blocking makes sense, but he also already used his F224 KB. So his common options to finish the string are the overhead F224, F22~Nomad Dash and F22~Amp Buzzsaw which is -1 but doesn't combo or jail. So pressing your offense after F22 might be a good option after the KB is used up. There's no extra low mixup or cancel to challenge you with here like many Kabal loadouts would have.

He then did B12~Amp Buzzsaw(-1) which you kind of let him off the hook for as he walked back and whiff punished you with B12 for that massive damage. Round two you let him just do F224 and B12U2 on block without pressuring him, that's like a shark smelling blood to a Kabal player!

2. I can see this was a longer set and that might explain your offense seeming to lack confidence. I always say in these games if you're poking on block, then you're not using your turns properly. But it can be tough when you're getting beat in a long set like that. He was also ready for your teleport mixups which I do not know much about, but maybe you were doing them too often in the set? At one point you did Straight Fireball amp on block and poked afterwards.. poking at low minus is fine but Kabals will counterpoke with their great 12 frame F2 where other characters might just use D1. But careful with those amp straight fireballs you can duck the last hit

3. I don't know the matchup, and I know he's got the air dash, but between low fireball, straight fire ball, dragon kick and the teleports.. are you zoning enough? You got away with a couple dragon kicks on block when maybe you could have been getting a fireball game going. I can't imagine Kabal will win fullscreen just on nomad dash and buzzsaw, and if he's using air dash or air buzz saw at range, you could possibly punish with normal teleport or the air drop teleport. That's awkward but doable so probably worth some lab time. Also, the amp portion of amp low fireball goes higher than the normal fireball and can clip characters in the air more easily. Maybe not to the point where you can dominate the zoning game, but if you can use it to establish and maintain life leads then you put Kabal on the offensive.

Seems like a polished Kabal but there's definitely some more basic matchup stuff you could be doing that would make it way less frustrating.
 
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REYTHEGREAT

..........................
First you need to get rid off that teleport. Lui's tele is trash. You need low fireball instead. You need to zone with high fireball and low fireballs. You also need to figure out which is your fastest punisher cause you had the chance to punish after he finished a string and didnt (or just grab). But the best person to watch is NinjaKilla. Watch how he plays, the pressure, space control and punishes.
 
Kabal's airdash is really strong, Especially when Kabal player knows how to do it very low on the air, making his j3 impossible to anti air. This is how I deal with it:
  1. Just keep blocking. Kabal doesn't have mix, only stagger, it's not hard to block and try to tech throw sometimes.
  2. Air projectile. Throw out your instant jump back 2 or 3, then input a special move. It's very likely to beat Kabal's airdash, and you can possible get a conversion from it.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
1. Just take the throw. You got whiff punished hard in round 1, one thing to consider here is that Kabal does not have extra mix in this loadout from his strings. He doesn't have low spinner, low hook grab, rolling saw or dash cancel. So you took that 470 damage combo by getting whiff punished with B12U2 and I know you have to take your turn eventually, but he would have had to throw you 4 times to get that damage. He can't just keep throwing AMP buzz saws and Kabal wants to punish you for pressing buttons in his range, that's one of his strengths. Make them work for it, you have to play differently against mixup command grab Baraka compared to big damage fundamentals Baraka.
Very good point. My issue is that Im not sure what abilities are default with Kabal and so Im always thinking he has dash cancel, low hook and a bunch of other **** that, well turns out he doesnt lol

So like at one point in the corner he did F22 stagger walk back. If he did F224 you would have had -2 and a flawless block chance, so blocking makes sense, but he also already used his F224 KB. So his common options to finish the string are the overhead F224, F22~Nomad Dash and F22~Amp Buzzsaw which is -1 but doesn't combo or jail. So pressing your offense after F22 might be a good option after the KB is used up. There's no extra low mixup or cancel to challenge you with here like many Kabal loadouts would have.
Whats the time stamp on the video of this? Im not sure what the F22 looks like lol

He then did B12~Amp Buzzsaw(-1) which you kind of let him off the hook for as he walked back and whiff punished you with B12 for that massive damage. Round two you let him just do F224 and B12U2 on block without pressuring him, that's like a shark smelling blood to a Kabal player!
Yea I was metaphorically and literally ****ting my pants at that point because of the pressure lol


2. I can see this was a longer set and that might explain your offense seeming to lack confidence. I always say in these games if you're poking on block, then you're not using your turns properly. But it can be tough when you're getting beat in a long set like that. He was also ready for your teleport mixups which I do not know much about, but maybe you were doing them too often in the set? At one point you did Straight Fireball amp on block and poked afterwards.. poking at low minus is fine but Kabals will counterpoke with their great 12 frame F2 where other characters might just use D1. But careful with those amp straight fireballs you can duck the last hit

3. I don't know the matchup, and I know he's got the air dash, but between low fireball, straight fire ball, dragon kick and the teleports.. are you zoning enough? You got away with a couple dragon kicks on block when maybe you could have been getting a fireball game going. I can't imagine Kabal will win fullscreen just on nomad dash and buzzsaw, and if he's using air dash or air buzz saw at range, you could possibly punish with normal teleport or the air drop teleport. That's awkward but doable so probably worth some lab time. Also, the amp portion of amp low fireball goes higher than the normal fireball and can clip characters in the air more easily. Maybe not to the point where you can dominate the zoning game, but if you can use it to establish and maintain life leads then you put Kabal on the offensive.
Yea my teleport was just not working for me during the set. I barely used it because the few times I did, he read it correctly. So I essentially had a LK with a low fireball and nothing else lol
Indeed I shouldnt let him get away with the zoning game. I think I need to force him to come to me because LK zoning seems better here. Especially if I shut down his air game with air fireballs.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
First you need to get rid off that teleport. Lui's tele is trash. You need low fireball instead. You need to zone with high fireball and low fireballs. You also need to figure out which is your fastest punisher cause you had the chance to punish after he finished a string and didnt (or just grab). But the best person to watch is NinjaKilla. Watch how he plays, the pressure, space control and punishes.
I had low fireball. What do you recommend I switch the tele for? (Not command grab, 3 directional inputs are the pain of my existance)
 

Lex Luthor II

Lord of Lightning
I had low fireball. What do you recommend I switch the tele for? (Not command grab, 3 directional inputs are the pain of my existance)
Honestly, I think the tele isn't trash. It helps against other zoners and can surprise a lot of people at the end of strings or just in neutral. Abusing it obviously is going to make you have a bad time. His other options to me aren't better.
 

Saltea Moonspell

"And the mustard, is off the Hotdog" TB.
How to deal with Slight Gas spam?
As a Kabal player, I can tell you that I have been poked out of in between the first, and the second air hit. So when Kabal cancels jp/jk into Slight Gas and goes for jk/jp, you can either s1, or even fb/u2.

I started to use less Sligh Gas once my sparing partner started to AA me. Of course I speak about offline games.
 
As a Kabal player, I can tell you that I have been poked out of in between the first, and the second air hit. So when Kabal cancels jp/jk into Slight Gas and goes for jk/jp, you can either s1, or even fb/u2.

I started to use less Sligh Gas once my sparing partner started to AA me. Of course I speak about offline games.
this, you can AA between jumps, this will make kabal stay on the ground.

Sometimes the kabal will perform gas at a really low altitude which in this case you have to respect it, other than that, try to AA that ****
 

Saltea Moonspell

"And the mustard, is off the Hotdog" TB.
this, you can AA between jumps, this will make kabal stay on the ground.

Sometimes the kabal will perform gas at a really low altitude which in this case you have to respect it, other than that, try to AA that ****
In the worst case scenario, you respect the double air jump, and black whats coming next - there isnt really a death mixup after all. There the +8 advantage, Kabal goes into a string/poke, and thats about it. If opponent is patient, Kabal goes for a throw, which you anticipate, and you d2.

No rocket science there, unlike playing Kotal, who either cancel string into CG, or lunches you for a full combo, if you guess wrong lol.
 
In the worst case scenario, you respect the double air jump, and black whats coming next - there isnt really a death mixup after all. There the +8 advantage, Kabal goes into a string/poke, and thats about it. If opponent is patient, Kabal goes for a throw, which you anticipate, and you d2.

No rocket science there, unlike playing Kotal, who either cancel string into CG, or lunches you for a full combo, if you guess wrong lol.

this is the main thing i hate about using kabal :laughing: "patient" . once you know how his pressure works , you just need to wait. since he lacks of mixup with the gas
 

Saltea Moonspell

"And the mustard, is off the Hotdog" TB.
this is the main thing i hate about using kabal :laughing: "patient" . once you know how his pressure works , you just need to wait. since he lacks of mixup with the gas
You see, I feel alive when I get to into heavy rush down. It grew on my from playing Kabal and Skatlet in MK9. When I started to play Mean Streak (because of the NDC) I was loosing so much, because once I got in, I was staggering, with NDC application. After months of play I started to study my game play since we started to play casuals offline, weekly, but long sessions. My buddy who mains Jax started to rape me, like a little girl.

I lack defensive options, due to NDC pressure, I was outspaced, he play the opposite style of mine - patient neutral.

When I reworked my game plan, and saw the success, I started to understand the character design. Once I did, I had to change habits and enforce new game play model.

The reason why so many people disagree with his capability, is because in order to utilize tools he has to a degree that benefits player, is to very well understand concept of neutral and footsie game.

Difference between Kabal and so many good characters, is that when you have a mix up game, you don't really have to depend solo on neutral/footsie game. Not to mention, that while the mixup does the work for you, Kabal requires to be in the defensive position, in order to do what he was design to - punish whiffs, jump ins. That is a technique that requires knowledge MU's, to apply proper baits, and movement. Also, understanding baiting, and applying successfull punish require also attention from Kabal player to observe, what his opponent does, and how he reacts to baits.

Now Slight Gas nullifies a lot of neutral game, but this tool, is his support in zoning mu, where ino he strangles seriously. All his projectiles (ground) are rather conditioning/space control tools, and as that they do fine, but not as zoning tools, to counter zoning.

I honestly love his design. With the open variation system, he is a complete character, and not super op, in any department.

Kabal is simple to learn, but to be able to win at certain level requires much more then most people go away with other characters.
 
Might be worthless to you but i'll mention it anyway
I struggled alot in those 'long ranged stagger' type mu'ps aswel and i still do but what made it better for me now compared to then is i realized i had to micro dash in to take my turn/punish for my shorter ranged limbs that we associate with rushdown types typically, which after the fact makes sense but then it would make it seem like he was safe on everything always. But i'm probably just a massive dummy in which case this is useless and oughta be ignored
 
You see, I feel alive when I get to into heavy rush down. It grew on my from playing Kabal and Skatlet in MK9. When I started to play Mean Streak (because of the NDC) I was loosing so much, because once I got in, I was staggering, with NDC application. After months of play I started to study my game play since we started to play casuals offline, weekly, but long sessions. My buddy who mains Jax started to rape me, like a little girl.

I lack defensive options, due to NDC pressure, I was outspaced, he play the opposite style of mine - patient neutral.

When I reworked my game plan, and saw the success, I started to understand the character design. Once I did, I had to change habits and enforce new game play model.

The reason why so many people disagree with his capability, is because in order to utilize tools he has to a degree that benefits player, is to very well understand concept of neutral and footsie game.

Difference between Kabal and so many good characters, is that when you have a mix up game, you don't really have to depend solo on neutral/footsie game. Not to mention, that while the mixup does the work for you, Kabal requires to be in the defensive position, in order to do what he was design to - punish whiffs, jump ins. That is a technique that requires knowledge MU's, to apply proper baits, and movement. Also, understanding baiting, and applying successfull punish require also attention from Kabal player to observe, what his opponent does, and how he reacts to baits.

Now Slight Gas nullifies a lot of neutral game, but this tool, is his support in zoning mu, where ino he strangles seriously. All his projectiles (ground) are rather conditioning/space control tools, and as that they do fine, but not as zoning tools, to counter zoning.

I honestly love his design. With the open variation system, he is a complete character, and not super op, in any department.

Kabal is simple to learn, but to be able to win at certain level requires much more then most people go away with other characters.
you are right, kabal strenght relies on your MU knowledge (every character who lacks of mixup relies on this).

i like that you mention that his projectiles are conditioning control tools but not zoning tools, people think kabal is a zoner since he has an air projectile lol

PS: we should spar sometime :) (ps4)

Might be worthless to you but i'll mention it anyway
I struggled alot in those 'long ranged stagger' type mu'ps aswel and i still do but what made it better for me now compared to then is i realized i had to micro dash in to take my turn/punish for my shorter ranged limbs that we associate with rushdown types typically, which after the fact makes sense but then it would make it seem like he was safe on everything always. But i'm probably just a massive dummy in which case this is useless and oughta be ignored
do not despise yourself, this is something to keep in mind against characters like jade and joker
 
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Saltea Moonspell

"And the mustard, is off the Hotdog" TB.
PS: we should spar sometime :) (ps4)

I dont play MK on regular basis anymore, and specially online. I do play offline when me and my buddies come over 2-3 times a month, so there are planty of MU, that I dont have worked on.

Please add me to your list, and text me, I'll try to get us a session. PSN: SalteaMoonspell