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Match-Up Discussion - Smoke Smoke's Mu's

rubmytaco

CarriedByClone
I actually don't think it's quite 7-3
6-4 would be my number but that might be because I've played sub since day1
Grandmaster absolutely destroys Smoke. Unless you're getting mixed, I don't see how you would possibly lose (even mixing isn't that much of a thing after the patch). Smoke has almost no options in the corner, the second hit of b21 whiffs when crouching for a full punish, Sub punishes smoke bomb after strings with jump over punch, and he can even punish the less punishable moves like f34.

What does Smoke have in that match up to compete?
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Midscreen its not outright destruction, but the thing is Smoke has no way to reliably build bar vs Sub.

Then the corner... lol... just ultra lol.. that's all
 

GrimJack

Rock paper scissor specialist
Midscreen its not outright destruction, but the thing is Smoke has no way to reliably build bar vs Sub.

Then the corner... lol... just ultra lol.. that's all
how bad would you describe it in the corner? sub - jax bad or sub - cage bad :DOGE
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
I actually can't think of a character that gets obliterated worse in the corner than Smoke. Maybe Blood/Sun God
how bad would you describe it in the corner? sub - jax bad or sub - cage bad :DOGE
both Jax and Cage do better than Smoke in the corner imo. Smoke can't get up, can't get out, lol.
 

Espio

Footsies Is The Wave.
Lead Moderator
Goro versus Smoke is pretty 5-5, it's a very fun match up as they both have very legitimate counters for each other. Goro cannot be reliably kept out and plays the footsie/pressure game very well against him in terms of stagger pressure, chip and plus frames (Dragon Fangs to be more specific). The biggest thing that helps Smoke out is his ability to phase through pokes cancelled into specials so it creates a cool little meta game for Goro to play around with versus him.


I actually can't think of a character that gets obliterated worse in the corner than Smoke. Maybe Blood/Sun God

both Jax and Cage do better than Smoke in the corner imo. Smoke can't get up, can't get out, lol.
This match up made me low key drop Smoke because even back in the day, Sub-Zero was super common and his frequency has only increased. At least someone like Cage actually has an armored way to escape (it's not great by any means, but it's certainly better than nothing). Phase getting shut down pretty handily is heartbreaking.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Goro versus Smoke is pretty 5-5, it's a very fun match up as they both have very legitimate counters for each other. Goro cannot be reliably kept out and plays the footsie/pressure game very well against him in terms of stagger pressure, chip and plus frames (Dragon Fangs to be more specific). The biggest thing that helps Smoke out is his ability to phase through pokes cancelled into specials so it creates a cool little meta game for Goro to play around with versus him.




This match up made me low key drop Smoke because even back in the day, Sub-Zero was super common and his frequency has only increased. At least someone like Cage actually has an armored way to escape (it's not great by any means, but it's certainly better than nothing). Phase getting shut down pretty handily is heartbreaking.
Heartbreaking for Smoke players, jizz worthy for Sub players lol. Cage at least has a way to get out even if it is a high with pitiful risk/reward especially considering the risk(or lack thereof)/reward of what Sub is about to do. Smoke just dies.
 

boba_buster

Noob saibot
Grandmaster absolutely destroys Smoke. Unless you're getting mixed, I don't see how you would possibly lose (even mixing isn't that much of a thing after the patch). Smoke has almost no options in the corner, the second hit of b21 whiffs when crouching for a full punish, Sub punishes smoke bomb after strings with jump over punch, and he can even punish the less punishable moves like f34.

What does Smoke have in that match up to compete?
I say that as a smoke player not a sub zero player. I honestly feel like if b21 didn't whiff that the match up could be even , or really close to it. A lot of ppl get wrecked in the corner by sub. I don't think that alone makes it a bad mu
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
I say that as a smoke player not a sub zero player. I honestly feel like if b21 didn't whiff that the match up could be even , or really close to it. A lot of ppl get wrecked in the corner by sub. I don't think that alone makes it a bad mu
The way Smoke gets mopped in the corner is far more severe than 98% of the cast though. And you have to consider how easy it is for Sub to put him in that situation.
 

boba_buster

Noob saibot
The way Smoke gets mopped in the corner is far more severe than 98% of the cast though. And you have to consider how easy it is for Sub to put him in that situation.
Not that easy for sub to get him there , as far as normals go smokes are way better than subs , other than d4 that is. If sub throws the clone you can ex tele on reaction. Know your clone timing and you can use b2xxexsmokebomb to get advantage/throw them towards the corner if sub has been walking you there.
When your in the corner you can phase away to make subs starters whiff (regular phase away starts up in 1 frame) b2 has a lot of recovery and he can't cancel 12 into a special if you don't block it , follow up with a njp (only disjointed hitbox move smoke has) to make him block and make the clone disappear. From there if you were able to delay it enough you may be slightly plus. For the walk up b33/throw mix up you can d3. All this being said I'm not saying it's an even match up , jus saying I don't feel like it is quite as bad as it seems. 7-3 is pretty steep. But I could be and probly am completely wrong
 

Wazminator

twitch.tv/Wazminator
When your in the corner you can phase away to make subs starters whiff
Sub never has to throw clone against Smoke, he can happily sit behind it without having to worry about really anything.

+ once he gets you to the corner (literally any touch), you can't phase through clone so you're stuck, NJP is your best option besides blocking and even that can be beat out quite easily.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Also he can re clone off of anything safely really. Any conversion that puts Smoke remotely near the corner is ggs.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Sub beats him 7-3. I think he goes even with or beats a large majority of the cast. I never really feel at risk playing that character.
I confirm this. If Sub as GM and UB get him to the corner, it's game over for Smoke. Smoke has a problem with the ice. His smoke out gets frozen. I'm sure that he won't have trouble against Cryo, since he doesn't have anything defensive like GM and UB do.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Sub never has to throw clone against Smoke, he can happily sit behind it without having to worry about really anything.

+ once he gets you to the corner (literally any touch), you can't phase through clone so you're stuck, NJP is your best option besides blocking and even that can be beat out quite easily.
NJP is one option. Another would be the wallrun. You can do the wallrun at the same time Sub attacks to get out of there.