Question - Shinnok Should more overheads be like shinnok's?

[gam224]

One of the big complaints of MKX is that it is too 50/50 focused. I don't think this is a bad thing but I think safe 50/50's and 50/50's into 50/50's (alien) is the problem. I think this could be solved by making most overheads launch but be unsafe. Take alien for example, if f4 launched up vertically for a NJP but was like -30 on block it would make him a lot more fair. This can also apply to characters like cut throat. Imagine if back 1 didn't have a string attached but just launched the opponent straight up but was super unsafe as well.

 

[ArmedCalf]

mmmm, I mean I'd like a game where OH's were more like Liu ad Kitana but that's just me

 

[Colest]

I don't think putting more risk reward on 50/50s is the answer, personally.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Sounds like MKD. That game was mass 50/50's but between throws and single-strike overhead launchers. Those overheads were death on block for the most part.

MK9 Scorpion is a good model. You could play him a little safer or go for the big reward 50/50 that would kill you if you're wrong.

By the way... enough with the overhead/low bullshit in the middle of strings.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

By the way... enough with the overhead/low bullshit in the middle of strings.

It's a good way to teach people learn the matchups and level up their defense. The first hit oh/low is the problem.
Do you believe that there are kind of people who complain about Batman's 50/50?

 

[Invincible Salads]

i'd like a game where most characters had overhead strings, but their only lows would be pokes, except for a few characters maybe,

 

[Zaccel]

Not every OH/Low is made equal. To universalize overheads in this way would reduce the variety of possible attacks, without really compensating for the 50/50 game in itself.
To use Reptile as an example, his OH b2 launches and is plus on block. This isn't the end of the world because his primary low starter (b3xxEX db2) is slower, can't really be hit-confirmed, costs meter, and is unsafe on block. Reptile has a safe overhead, but that's hardly an issue. At the end of the day, whether or not overheads are unsafe isn't as important as ensuring that the buck stops somewhere during a 50/50.
To enforce this on one move type doesn't really change anything aside from reducing matchup knowledge, and forcing overheads to be categorized by range, startup and little else.

i'd like a game where most characters had overhead strings, but their only lows would be pokes, except for a few characters maybe,

Most 3D fighting games (most visibly Virtua Fighter) tend towards this. "Mid" hits OH, lows usually don't give advantage.

 

[oaoo94]

I think Overheads should be like SFV's. Where it doesn't launch or have a string. Make it safe but don't have it combo. Make it into like a harassing situation.

 

[Darth-Nero]

One of the big complaints of MKX is that it is too 50/50 focused. I don't think this is a bad thing but I think safe 50/50's and 50/50's into 50/50's (alien) is the problem. I think this could be solved by making most overheads launch but be unsafe. Take alien for example, if f4 launched up vertically for a NJP but was like -30 on block it would make him a lot more fair. This can also apply to characters like cut throat. Imagine if back 1 didn't have a string attached but just launched the opponent straight up but was super unsafe as well.

If you are going to use an example of a character with a punishable overhead launcher you should go with Raiden, He is the GOD of punishable overheads.

 

[thlityoursloat]

Give everyone Aquaman's OH/low mixup game and I'll be happy.

 

[Shirai Ryu Dog]

The safe 50 50s and (unreactable) OH launchers should be like Kitana's......non existent

If its like Liu Kangs 113 launcher where the 3rd hit is OH and no low in the string then its fine, most of the other OH launchers are just BS

 

[Eddy Wang]

To this day i still think one of the best overhead launchers characters NRS has designed it was skarlet.
It was only fast from red dash (18f) and unreactable from a red dash with meter (13f) although they were launchers, they were also very launch punishable when blocked.

She wasn't a low starter character either, so her only low aside from D4 and D3, it was her slide which came from the same red dash, but at 8 frames and delayable from the 12th frame to the lastest one on the 29th, her slide a knockdown.

So in order to compensate her lack of mixup options, her pressure was safe and so beneficial to the character that it would force people to block low in order to not make her stronger, its when people tried to block low to avoid her getting stronger that the overhead would come in play.

In sum, blocking standing would give her more meter, lose a lot of chip which people would want to avoid, so they would block low to avoid the same pressure loops into itself, to the point that when you see people trying to prevent it (BAM, OH SHIT, OVERHEAD LAUNCHER).

 

[Daemantalo]

Overheads like Relentless and Unstoppable Jason's would be fine imo. F3 is plus on block, but it only does one hit and I'd say it's fairly easy to react to and block, even if it is hella plus. Point is, you don't have enough advantage to keep going Overhead/Overhead, so after you block the Overhead, you can immediately go and block the low/six frame poke, and then attempt to start your pressure. I really feel like Overheads shouldn't be combo starters, but have really decent damage, along with being safe. My opinion though.

 

[RyuKazuya]

I think Overheads should be like SFV's. Where it doesn't launch or have a string. Make it safe but don't have it combo. Make it into like a harassing situation.

except for balrog. His oh allows you to combo afterwards, yet it is -8 on block which means it can be severely punished. But i totally agree to your idea. The influence that 50/50 have on the course of the match is way too big.

 

[ChaosTheory]

It's a good way to teach people learn the matchups and level up their defense. The first hit oh/low is the problem.
Do you believe that there are kind of people who complain about Batman's 50/50?

I don't play Injustice, so I don't understand the Batman reference.

The first hit and the mid-string hit are both issues to me. I mentioned it as a side note since it's not really the topic. But it's like I've said a hundred times... MKX is made up of elements that aren't bad as individuals. But they make a circle chain where they exacerbate each other.

So like an unreactable 50/50 isn't necessarily bad... If you get in on an opponent and choose to create a big-reward guessing situation, that's your right because you got in. But it's way too easy to get in in MKX. And if you make that big-reward guessing situation and are wrong, I think you should take a big punishment. But a lot of moves/strings are way too safe in MKX (not helped by completely awkward block-stun, btw).

Guessing is ok if it's situational and the payoff/punishment is balanced. But it seems too prevalent in MKX.

The high/low blocking element within strings is an extension of that guessing situation. Recognizing a string and properly blocking, for example, high-low-low-high, is fine. But in MKX, you can cancel those strings at whatever point in the string with an OH/Low special which turns it into a guess.

Because getting in and initiating a block-string is so easy in MKX, it seems to make those guessing situations too prevalent. Again, one thing exacerbates another. This is all my opinion obviously.

 

[SaltShaker]

If you are going to use an example of a character with a punishable overhead launcher you should go with Raiden, He is the GOD of punishable overheads.

So much this.

If there are going to be unreactable 50/50 starters that lead to 40%/corner/resets/plus frames/etc, at least one of the options should be death on block.

I feel very strongly about this and it was one of my biggest gripes with the game.

 

[ando1184]

So much this.

If there are going to be unreactable 50/50 starters that lead to 40%/corner/resets/plus frames/etc, at least one of the options should be death on block.

I feel very strongly about this and it was one of my biggest gripes with the game.

But raiden can make that 50/50 safe on block as well. If they do overheads like that then there needs to be no special cancel windows at all. I mean it's a launcher for a combo anywhere on the screen

 

[Tweedy]

Alien is hella unsafe unless he cancels into his 7% overhead flip, that leaves him at -7.

I understand Alien is good, but why no shade at Cutthroat Kano, who is +8 after 50/50s for a bar, or -5 without, or Demolition who has the most ambiguous 50/50s in the game.

Let Lord Alien live prayeth to thee.

 

[MadPropz101]

I really hope Injustice 2 doesn't have safe 50/50's, and 50/50's inside 50/50's lol

 

[SaltShaker]

But raiden can make that 50/50 safe on block as well. If they do overheads like that then there needs to be no special cancel windows at all. I mean it's a launcher for a combo anywhere on the screen

Agreed.

The risk/reward should be "at least one option is death on block". We both play Bryan in Tekken. Perfect example. He has poke punishable OHs, launch punishable OH's, and launch punishable Lows but they lead to huge damage and oki on hit. Then he has counter hits that lead to launch. A great character, but you risk being punished any time you use his 50/50 and it makes you play very footsie oriented with him. (Can't wait for our matches on release lol)

Imo that makes for a better game than "I blocked correctly but I still have to hold another mixup" against half the cast. The risk/reward is way too much in the attackers favor in MKX.


But at the same time it's a double edged sword, because as many people out there that hate the mechanics, there are others that support it.

 

[Immortal]

No bullshit 50/50 strings.

Single strike OH which is unsafe on block and has quite a lot of startup frames. Just like in KI.

Imagine MK XL that way... it would be so much better.

But this will never happen. 50/50 + run is what makes MK XL look good, fast paced. Which is great from optics point view for.... casuals. And thats where the money is... So i expect the same BS "Paulo vision" route in IGAU 2 and MK XI.

 

[buyacushun]

Mixups didn't be homogenized. You can have a nasty 50/50 character but give it properties to make it manageable. NRS didn't really do that in this game.

Balrog in SFV can combo off of a low and an overhead. The low is a light fast crouch normal that isn't super far. He's got other lows but that's the only that combos. His only overhead comes out of a spin move that has another follow-up. The catch is you can jab him out of the spin and the overhead is unsafe since it leads to great damage. You have to actually condition people and take risks. There isn't some 3f difference to normals under 15f startup. You don't go "damn guessed wrong again after I was already blocking"

Hopefully injustice 2 has more thought in it besides "get in, pick option, do combo of choosing"

No bullshit 50/50 strings.

Single strike OH which is unsafe on block and has quite a lot of startup frames. Just like in KI.

Imagine MK XL that way... it would be so much better.

But this will never happen. 50/50 + run is what makes MK XL looks good, fast paced. Which is great from optics point view for.... casuals. And thats where the money is... So i expect the same BS "Paulo vision" route in IGAU 2 and MK XI.

The worst part is that casuals that actually play won't stick around if they go online after beating story and play someone who seems to always be on top of them and pressing Mixups and resets they barely see coming. Only high damage unforgiving game that stays is filled with comic book characters and a lot of flash.

 

[Immortal]

The worst part is that casuals that actually play won't stick around if they go online after beating story and play someone who seems to always be on top of them and pressing Mixups and resets they barely see coming. Only high damage unforgiving game that stays is filled with comic book characters and a lot of flash.

Well that doesn't matter for NRS(WB) - not really. Since they already bought the game. That's what matter.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I'm honestly beginning to believe people on here put themselves in '5050' situations that arent real 5050 situations.

 

[SaltShaker]

I'm honestly beginning to believe people on here put themselves in '5050' situations that arent real 5050 situations.

Doubtful. A lot of people just don't like a game riddled with unreactable 50/50 starters that lead to huge rewards and can be made safe in some situations. Some like it, some don't.

It really is that simple.