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Should armor option selects be in the game?

Sage Leviathan

I'm platinum mad!
Street Fighter player: "He was mashing DP, so I stopped my pressure and got a full punish."

NRS player: "He was mashing armor, so I made a thread on TYM."

There is a huge risk to mashing armor. (unless your armor is safe, which is another discussion)

Unless you're talking about something else?
He's referring to the pile of dog shit known as buffer windows, a type of option select.
 

Sage Leviathan

I'm platinum mad!
That's what I thought.
This thread is a 2/10
How'd you get to that conclusion?
When I play Jolt, it's gotten to the point where I can't even tick throw into command grab anymore.
Every single time I do it, EXRoll. When I don't he blocks the string. So long as he has a bar of meter I'm liable to be punished.

I'm surprised you have the opinion you do, since with practice you can do the same thing to SR Takeda's close kunai/mid kunai.
 

StealthyMuffin

Earth's Mightiest Knucklehead
I'm surprised you have the opinion you do, since with practice you can do the same thing to SR Takeda's close kunai/mid kunai.
If someone tries to mash armor, I'm blowing that ass up with a teleport cancel.
And if you are 100% sure My is mashing armor, why not just block after 211?
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Street Fighter player: "He was mashing DP, so I stopped my pressure and got a full punish."

NRS player: "He was mashing armor, so I made a thread on TYM."

There is a huge risk to mashing armor. (unless your armor is safe, which is another discussion)

Unless you're talking about something else?
Yeah, if only you could turn any offensive pattern into unpunishable slight minus to bait armors instead of being tied to what NRS allows you to with target combo system, and if only all armors were punishable in MK.
Please, take your SF shit to SF community, MK meta is not the same for a reason.
 

Goat-City

Banned
That's what I thought.
This thread is a 2/10
Not all reversals are punishable and some characters benefit from it more than others. That's beside the point though because if you read the OP you'd know that I never argued they were unfair. I just don't see it as an enjoyable gameplay mechanic and would prefer it if it wasn't possible. However, if they continue to exist in the game it won't be that big of a deal either because like you said, you can block and punish usually.
 

exflyingbooty

This dream has a sad ending
there are more important things to discuss, like how stupid fucking jumps are and how jumping needs to be nerfed
 

StealthyMuffin

Earth's Mightiest Knucklehead
Not all reversals are punishable and some characters benefit from it more than others. That's beside the point though because if you read the OP you'd know that I never argued they were unfair. I just don't see it as an enjoyable gameplay mechanic and would prefer it if it wasn't possible. However, if they continue to exist in the game it won't be that big of a deal either because like you said, you can block and punish usually.
Alright.
Yeah, if only you could turn any offensive pattern into unpunishable slight minus to bait armors instead of being tied to what NRS allows you to with target combo system, and if only all armors were punishable in MK.
Please, take your SF shit to SF community, MK meta is not the same for a reason.
What characters are forced to have unsafe gaps in their pressure? (That's a legitimate question. I thought pre-patch Takeda was the only one.)
 

Sage Leviathan

I'm platinum mad!
Alright.

What characters are forced to have unsafe gaps in their pressure? (That's a legitimate question. I thought pre-patch Takeda was the only one.)

Colonel.
If I want to command grab you, you should either commit to armor (or whatever solution you have requiring the block button's release) or block and take it.
I shouldn't have to make a read on my own goddamn read.

Truth be told, there's nothing to be done about it. Tolerance is all. But there's nothing wrong with complaining on an internet forum in the assembly of complete strangers, eh?
 

StealthyMuffin

Earth's Mightiest Knucklehead
He's buffering the armor. If he doesn't see Mileena's EXRoll come out in retaliation automatically, he'll have no reason to just throw it out to check me in some imaginary case.
I mean, he can if he wants to. But that's not the thingy being talked about here.
Listen... I don't understand your argument, so I won't try to counter it.
We both think we're right, and that won't change.
Let's just end it here.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
They shouldn't exist, but then again Kobu Cancerjutsu Tanyer, Tempest Kung Cancer and Liu Kancer shouldn't exist either.
Lumping all variations of Liu together even though you've made spacial cases for others you've mentioned? Hatred is strong in this one.
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
Lumping all variations of Liu together even though you've made spacial cases for others you've mentioned? Hatred is strong in this one.
I hate them all and all their variations equally. Tanya especially, people say "oh dragon naginata sucks" but it's still retarded and beyond annoying to fight. I've bought all DLC characters except for Tanya.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
You guys do realize that the main way to fix this is to increase the reversal window, right?

It's one of the few actually helpful defensive aspects of the game and it is being asked to be removed on the simple prospect that it's an OS by some. I don't get that.

What they should be doing is making it something that more characters can actually use reliably.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
You guys do realize that the main way to fix this is to increase the reversal window, right?
I'm not sure why. Disabling blocking for N frames after registered reversal input, where N is number of remaining blockstun frames, should be a method that can fix the issue without breaking too much about the game. Correct me if I'm overlooking something here.

It's one of the few actually helpful defensive aspects of the game and it is being asked to be removed on the simple prospect that it's an OS by some. I don't get that.
It's a defensive aspect that, if mastered, completely nullifies an aspect of offence to the point that it makes said method of offence completely useless, making it not worth using, which in turn makes sure this defensive technique does nothing. That is at first glance, however.

Even if you consider that the nature of mixup changes from "guess the hole, make reversal" to "guess reversal, bait reversal", it's not a good change. Essentially it's the same thing except that you burden players with mashing inputs (that often don't do anything) much harder to the same end. As in, it's the same game with worse interface. Why would you want that instead?

If you feel that this is needed measure to keep one particular method of offence in check (which is possibly isn't even affected that much if you consider metagame shift described), why don't you suggest to address that method directly?

What they should be doing is making it something that more characters can actually use reliably.
Or make sure there's no offence in the game that requires help from your console/PC to deal with. Or at least make sure that out of two equivalent ways of designing defence you don't chose one that requires you to sodomize your controller "by default" mashing same buttons two times a second while blocking and sometimes stopping that on a read, instead of one where you sometimes make an input on a read, while just holding a block button when you want to block.
 

Wigy

There it is...
Oh you know whats even better. When you're doing RC's if u wana cancel and bait you have to crouch, which means u can get blown up by overhead armour. You have to crouch then stand up right away, but with 113skc, you have like NO time to stand up.
 

HuttonMD

ADM Riddles
Your not always going to have the meter to OS out of pressure so no one is going to armor out of your pressure every time you try to do it. but with the way some offense is I think its a good way to keep your opponent in check even if you only do it once or twice it makes them think about it at least.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
You guys can't see the actual problem.
The actual problem is that we have a billion variations, half of which are not balanced to the rest.
They will not be, because it's hundreds of pairs to match up to one another.
They did this as a lazy solution; they can remotely push and shove the so-called balance but high numbers are both a tool and an excuse.

Option selects do not matter. The fact is that the actual game balance hinges on numbers of variables in the system.
Ergo a handful of these characters will always be "broken" aka overperforming.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Your not always going to have the meter to OS out of pressure so no one is going to armor out of your pressure every time you try to do it. but with the way some offense is I think its a good way to keep your opponent in check even if you only do it once or twice it makes them think about it at least.
Well, that would be one reason not to try it, for that case design of the "OS" doesn't matter.
For the rest cases, I think it's more intuitive and less taxing to input a reversal where you think a hole will be than to input it everywhere and effecively cancelling it everywhere except when you think your opponent is going to bait it. For the record, baiting it can still be done in a game with no reversal OS, but when you have OS, another layer of "yomi" is lost to it. This design removes some depth from game of reads when you have meter IMO. That, and it makes default level of inputs required a lot more of a hurdle.

I mean, that is an option after all, and one can't say that it is not beneficial for defender, but then you get situations where gap between characters with strong reversals and others increases, and then a case can be made that based on practical results (that will inevitably include heavy OS usage) offence can be built around existing OS and thus will require it to reach sensible odds of defending yourself successfully - and having a character who can use this technique to the best effect.

I doubt that this will increase variety of competitive matches, while still hurting casual side of the game (for what this point is worth in such a discussion).

You guys can't see the actual problem.
The actual problem is that we have a billion variations, half of which are not balanced to the rest.
They will not be, because it's hundreds of pairs to match up to one another.
They did this as a lazy solution; they can remotely push and shove the so-called balance but high numbers are both a tool and an excuse.

Option selects do not matter. The fact is that the actual game balance hinges on numbers of variables in the system.
Ergo a handful of these characters will always be "broken" aka overperforming.
You have a point, but what's your suggestion when it comes to a single particular issue? Ignore it because the game will be not balanced regardless?

I think I should point out that we discuss a concept itself here as much as balance implications of it. As in, is this a good baseline for system and character designs? Will it affect enjoyability of the game regardless of balance? Will it serve towards decreasing spread of power / increasing spread of outcomes in particular situations? How will it affect the game?
 
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