She's fun but is she viable...

[Cage Redfield]

How is this character one of the weakest in the game when she has:

good neutral/zoning tools in B22, d4, core discharge/Ice Machine DB2, f2 and an X-ray that will punish or snipe stuff from full screen pretty easily (dont come at me and say you can interrupt b22 or that there's a gap, it only exists if you react to a 19f mid and FB U2 punish for a super scaled and expensive punish. Only other way is with some character's X-rays)

decent strike-throw mixup from Ice Machine's ex freeze burst with the threat of triggering the flag for/hitting you with a kb throw vs getting hit with b2212's KB. This gets even stronger if you're in the corner AND if you've hit the requirement for Slide's KB, you can hitconfirm b22 into slide kb for even more damage. She doesn't have an overhead and considering her archetype being that of someone who wants to stay at the midrange and harass you with b22/d4/zoning, she shouldn't have 50/50s.

Practical KBs. Like, dude, she's one of the few with 2 throw KBs, that's solid as hell to have imo. B2212 KB is like one of the easiest to get in a game with her and it leads to big corner carry and progression towards the slide KB midscreen/actual damage in the corner. And like I mentioned above, Slide KB in Ice Machine is real good. It's expensive to trigger, but she can pull off 40% combos with that move as a starter and that's kinda nice.

I use Ice Machine in this post alot, so it's pretty clear that I haven't played the bomb variation/have no input regarding that variation. Maybe that's the shitter variation for the character, who knows, it's like a few weeks into the game atm. But like, I seriously fail to see how this character is considered one of the actual worst in the game atm when she has all that going on for her

 

[buyacushun]

She plays anime footsies with sword buttons. Even if all those things in the OP stayed I don't see how you couldn't viably play her in a game with such emphasis on slower grounded gameplay.

 

[santanabar]

How is this character one of the weakest in the game when she has:

good neutral/zoning tools in B22, d4, core discharge/Ice Machine DB2, f2 and an X-ray that will punish or snipe stuff from full screen pretty easily (dont come at me and say you can interrupt b22 or that there's a gap, it only exists if you react to a 19f mid and FB U2 punish for a super scaled and expensive punish. Only other way is with some character's X-rays)

decent strike-throw mixup from Ice Machine's ex freeze burst with the threat of triggering the flag for/hitting you with a kb throw vs getting hit with b2212's KB. This gets even stronger if you're in the corner AND if you've hit the requirement for Slide's KB, you can hitconfirm b22 into slide kb for even more damage. She doesn't have an overhead and considering her archetype being that of someone who wants to stay at the midrange and harass you with b22/d4/zoning, she shouldn't have 50/50s.

Practical KBs. Like, dude, she's one of the few with 2 throw KBs, that's solid as hell to have imo. B2212 KB is like one of the easiest to get in a game with her and it leads to big corner carry and progression towards the slide KB midscreen/actual damage in the corner. And like I mentioned above, Slide KB in Ice Machine is real good. It's expensive to trigger, but she can pull off 40% combos with that move as a starter and that's kinda nice.

I use Ice Machine in this post alot, so it's pretty clear that I haven't played the bomb variation/have no input regarding that variation. Maybe that's the shitter variation for the character, who knows, it's like a few weeks into the game atm. But like, I seriously fail to see how this character is considered one of the actual worst in the game atm when she has all that going on for her

B22 is her best string, problem is when opp blocks it, it has no knock back, so you are right next to the enemy, worst place she can be (and honestly it's nothing special, most of the roster has an advancing hit confirmable mid string). F2 is like a bad slide, because it can be full punished when crouch blocking (it whiffs), so people that says "it's like cyber sub f2", no it's not... it's super unsafe. The rest of her normals are just bad or bugged. FB is good.

KB are also nothing special. B2212 into something deals pretty much the same damage as B22 + freeze + combo... So well, you are saving 1 bar of meter, whatever. Grab KB is ok, the rest you are never gonna hit them.

Zoning is OKish, problem is you are supposed to excel at zoning (with shield + 2 projectiles) but actually many characters can outzone you or just teleport punish because recovery is abysmal.

Ice crown variation is just not viable at all, bomb hitbox is a joke (and it's mid, you are never going to freeze anybody unless they release block for some reason).

 

[SHAOLIN]

As far as her Ice Machine variation goes, she's good (meaning tournament viable). Can't speak on the other variation though. . .

 

[Cage Redfield]

B22 is her best string, problem is when opp blocks it, it has no knock back, so you are right next to the enemy, worst place she can be (and honestly it's nothing special, most of the roster has an advancing hit confirmable mid string). F2 is like a bad slide, because it can be full punished when crouch blocking (it whiffs), so people that says "it's like cyber sub f2", no it's not... it's super unsafe. The rest of her normals are just bad or bugged. FB is good.

KB are also nothing special. B2212 into something deals pretty much the same damage as B22 + freeze + combo... So well, you are saving 1 bar of meter, whatever. Grab KB is ok, the rest you are never gonna hit them.

Zoning is OKish, problem is you are supposed to excel at zoning (with shield + 2 projectiles) but actually many characters can outzone you or just teleport punish because recovery is abysmal.

Ice crown variation is just not viable at all, bomb hitbox is a joke (and it's mid, you are never going to freeze anybody unless they release block for some reason).

being next to the guy at -4 is totally fine, i'd rather that than be punishable in their face. Yeah, ideally you want to be at the mid-range with her, but -4 enables you to do the dumb ass point blank mindgames this game has between downpoke/throw/d2. Conditioning your opponent to not immediately press after spin then enables you to get out of there and resume being a pest from a far.

F2 whiffing on crouch block imo is like a slight negative to the move, It's hitbox travels a decent amount while it's active, and it's a pretty effective chasing tool after hitting someone with d4. This move is a nice ass check, it being duckable doesn't mean squat if you space it right.

B121 whiffing sometimes is annoying but that string has a lot of push back on it, man. It gets people off you and also pushes them further in to the corner. Worst case scenario, you figure out that the string whiffs on the opponent for whatever reason and you cancel b12 into spin, which leads to the first part of this post. When/If this string gets the last hit's hitbox fixed so it stops whiffing randomly, it'll be real important with her.

How are her KBs "nothing special" lol. Dude, b2212's KB is great, even if the return is mostly in the corner. Hell that might be on purpose looking at Ice Machine's ex slide. Also, how is having two throw kbs nothing special lol this is something that a bunch of characters would die for atm. Kitana has 0 throw kbs, Frost can do some shit like throw you out of the corner and the next throw is a guaranteed 50/50 that could lead to 31% and she could do that twice. That's 62% from throws, dude, how is that bad lmao. Slide's KB is expensive, but it seriously pushes her damage to "acceptable" range, around +40% for a bar and a KB spent (not counting the investment needed to trigger it). That's nothing to sneeze at imo. Meanwhile we have characters like Johnny, whose Kbs are just non-existent atm.

Her zoning isn't just in her fireballs and shield. Ice Machine Db2 is a legit ass threat from full screen, bf3 ex is good for punishing bad approaches and b22/d4/f2 are good checks for when you get to a range where you wouldn't want to use something as heavy a commitment as a db2. For the characters like Sonya or Skarlet, the shield/db2 help her get a counter fireball in to start moving to a more favorable range. I almost forgot, her combo enders lend a hand in her zoning too. Any time she touches you, it can end in spin or AA head and they go flying back to full screen, unless you ex slide to push into the corner which makes her more dangerous when her KBs lead to actual damage.

Like I said before, I can't speak for the bomb variation because i refuse to touch it, I value the mixup/combos off Ice Machine's microburst too much to play it. I'm not coming in here to tell you guys that Frost is right behind her story mode time-pal in terms of strength, but I dont get how she could possibly considered one of the weakest in the game with how Ice Machine is atm. Especially when there's little info out there in terms of who loses to who and how/why and when the reason given for why she's bad is just her s1 whiffing as a punish against certain moves or w.e.

 

[buyacushun]

B22 is her best string, problem is when opp blocks it, it has no knock back, so you are right next to the enemy, worst place she can be (and honestly it's nothing special, most of the roster has an advancing hit confirmable mid string). F2 is like a bad slide, because it can be full punished when crouch blocking (it whiffs), so people that says "it's like cyber sub f2", no it's not... it's super unsafe. The rest of her normals are just bad or bugged. FB is good.

Can we please stop acting like the fact a move has a drawback or an answer to it that that's it for a move? A fighter is all about risk/reward, mind games, conditioning and so much more than "I end up next to my opponent on block". Changing from B2, to B22, to B22 spin, to B2 spin all give the opponent just that little bit more to think about. Never mind the spacing enabled by such a string. Yes the normal with a ton range, a hitbox that goes beyond it's hurtbox, easily confirmed, with a safe special you can add on for chip meterless isn't also plus or with immense pushback or some other thing. That should be a good thing.

 

[haketh]

Snip

All well said & reflects a lot of thoughts about her I have right now

 

[santanabar]

Can we please stop acting like the fact a move has a drawback or an answer to it that that's it for a move? A fighter is all about risk/reward, mind games, conditioning and so much more than "I end up next to my opponent on block". Changing from B2, to B22, to B22 spin, to B2 spin all give the opponent just that little bit more to think about. Never mind the spacing enabled by such a string. Yes the normal with a ton range, a hitbox that goes beyond it's hurtbox, easily confirmed, with a safe special you can add on for chip meterless isn't also plus or with immense pushback or some other thing. That should be a good thing.

we are talking abour her best move. I have like 300 games with frost, and let me tell you, what you mentioned is unfortunately frost main gameplay... B22 into grab, b22 into spin + poke grab or go into back to neutral (you cant even hit confirm pokes because of shitty b1).
Well, that's all her "mixups". Compare that to the rest of the characters, even shao khan offer you more viable options.

 

[buyacushun]

we are talking abour her best move. I have like 300 games with frost, and let me tell you, what you mentioned is unfortunately frost main gameplay... B22 into grab, b22 into spin + poke grab or go into back to neutral (you cant even hit confirm pokes because of shitty b1).
Well, that's all her "mixups". Compare that to the rest of the characters, even shao khan offer you more viable options.

That's the thing there's nothing "unfortunate" about it. You want more mixups go play Sonya or Jacqui. Just lose out on cancelling long range buttons into safety 100% of the time. The point of my post was to say to stop with this pessimistic outlook on regular moves. You're post reads like it's disappointing this long range easy confirm isn't also plus on block and needs even more utility. I don't see why as Frost you wouldn't be content just constantly being in neutral.

Question for everyone who is giving you the hardest time in neutral? Does it matter the variation for either character?

 

[Xzyj]

Question for everyone who is giving you the hardest time in neutral? Does it matter the variation for either character?

i haven't played too much different characters online but so far Cassie was the worst to handle, can't zone her, have to respect her advancing strings so you can't really start your mid-poke game without worrying about her counterhitting you and knocking fullscreen away again where you have to patiently come to her while blocking low shots

 

[Peckapowa]

being next to the guy at -4 is totally fine, i'd rather that than be punishable in their face. Yeah, ideally you want to be at the mid-range with her, but -4 enables you to do the dumb ass point blank mindgames this game has between downpoke/throw/d2. Conditioning your opponent to not immediately press after spin then enables you to get out of there and resume being a pest from a far.

F2 whiffing on crouch block imo is like a slight negative to the move, It's hitbox travels a decent amount while it's active, and it's a pretty effective chasing tool after hitting someone with d4. This move is a nice ass check, it being duckable doesn't mean squat if you space it right.

B121 whiffing sometimes is annoying but that string has a lot of push back on it, man. It gets people off you and also pushes them further in to the corner. Worst case scenario, you figure out that the string whiffs on the opponent for whatever reason and you cancel b12 into spin, which leads to the first part of this post. When/If this string gets the last hit's hitbox fixed so it stops whiffing randomly, it'll be real important with her.

How are her KBs "nothing special" lol. Dude, b2212's KB is great, even if the return is mostly in the corner. Hell that might be on purpose looking at Ice Machine's ex slide. Also, how is having two throw kbs nothing special lol this is something that a bunch of characters would die for atm. Kitana has 0 throw kbs, Frost can do some shit like throw you out of the corner and the next throw is a guaranteed 50/50 that could lead to 31% and she could do that twice. That's 62% from throws, dude, how is that bad lmao. Slide's KB is expensive, but it seriously pushes her damage to "acceptable" range, around +40% for a bar and a KB spent (not counting the investment needed to trigger it). That's nothing to sneeze at imo. Meanwhile we have characters like Johnny, whose Kbs are just non-existent atm.

Her zoning isn't just in her fireballs and shield. Ice Machine Db2 is a legit ass threat from full screen, bf3 ex is good for punishing bad approaches and b22/d4/f2 are good checks for when you get to a range where you wouldn't want to use something as heavy a commitment as a db2. For the characters like Sonya or Skarlet, the shield/db2 help her get a counter fireball in to start moving to a more favorable range. I almost forgot, her combo enders lend a hand in her zoning too. Any time she touches you, it can end in spin or AA head and they go flying back to full screen, unless you ex slide to push into the corner which makes her more dangerous when her KBs lead to actual damage.

Like I said before, I can't speak for the bomb variation because i refuse to touch it, I value the mixup/combos off Ice Machine's microburst too much to play it. I'm not coming in here to tell you guys that Frost is right behind her story mode time-pal in terms of strength, but I dont get how she could possibly considered one of the weakest in the game with how Ice Machine is atm. Especially when there's little info out there in terms of who loses to who and how/why and when the reason given for why she's bad is just her s1 whiffing as a punish against certain moves or w.e.

Skarlet doesn't care about frosts counter-zoning, do the projectile shiled she gets tentacled.

 

[Kindred]

being next to the guy at -4 is totally fine, i'd rather that than be punishable in their face. Yeah, ideally you want to be at the mid-range with her, but -4 enables you to do the dumb ass point blank mindgames this game has between downpoke/throw/d2. Conditioning your opponent to not immediately press after spin then enables you to get out of there and resume being a pest from a far.

I agree, her spin is one of her best tools but against a good player, it severely suffers from its utility. Let me explain:

Some characters straight up punish the B22~Spin. You're at -4 so if you try to 10f grab, that's coming out in 14f and if you try to D1, that's coming out in 13f. Jax for instance will consistently punish you if you do anything but block. So you lose your turn against characters with a fast mid.

Say you land a D1, well her S1 and S3 have piss poor range so you have to rely on a slower mid of 16f or 19f to start your pressure, which can be poked right back. So your best option after a confirmed D1 after spin is backing away to try to catch them with another B22 or 344. 344 is punishable and reactable so you use it sparingly, B22 is cool until you have a good opponent who flawless blocks the second hit consistently. Then you have to start mixing B2~DB2B, which will catch. So you have to play mind games with tools that, in the vast majority of times will not lead to significant damage. Against someone who doesnt know the MU, she is deadly, but against someone that does, or someone using a character with a better closeup game, she is fucked. Sure she can win with mindgames but those only get you so far and its an uphill battle because she doesnt have a good follow up to D1 confirm or if she blocks the opponent's poke.

F2 whiffing on crouch block imo is like a slight negative to the move, It's hitbox travels a decent amount while it's active, and it's a pretty effective chasing tool after hitting someone with d4. This move is a nice ass check, it being duckable doesn't mean squat if you space it right.

that's the thing, it shouldnt even be a slight negative because it shouldnt whiff on crouch blocking opponents, period.
You hit someone with a D4 but a good player with catch on quickly that you follow it up with F2. Mind you, I dont mind her F2 at all. I just think it should behave like a high move should behave, i.e. whiff on neutral crouch only.

B121 whiffing sometimes is annoying but that string has a lot of push back on it, man. It gets people off you and also pushes them further in to the corner. Worst case scenario, you figure out that the string whiffs on the opponent for whatever reason and you cancel b12 into spin, which leads to the first part of this post. When/If this string gets the last hit's hitbox fixed so it stops whiffing randomly, it'll be real important with her.

I gotta say the B121 whiffing has never really been an issue for me either.

How are her KBs "nothing special" lol. Dude, b2212's KB is great, even if the return is mostly in the corner. Hell that might be on purpose looking at Ice Machine's ex slide. Also, how is having two throw kbs nothing special lol this is something that a bunch of characters would die for atm. Kitana has 0 throw kbs, Frost can do some shit like throw you out of the corner and the next throw is a guaranteed 50/50 that could lead to 31% and she could do that twice. That's 62% from throws, dude, how is that bad lmao. Slide's KB is expensive, but it seriously pushes her damage to "acceptable" range, around +40% for a bar and a KB spent (not counting the investment needed to trigger it). That's nothing to sneeze at imo. Meanwhile we have characters like Johnny, whose Kbs are just non-existent atm.

You have characters who get 50% midscreen off their KBs. You have charcaters who get KBs by just sneezing in the opponent's general direction. Her KBs midscreen dont do the damage you expect from a KB. And if other characters suffer from that problem too, then its an issue that needs to be fixed for all. Its completely ridiculous that Geras gets 330 dmg KBs left and right while Frost's KBs push the opponent so far that a follow up is limited to B2~BF4.

Her zoning isn't just in her fireballs and shield. Ice Machine Db2 is a legit ass threat from full screen, bf3 ex is good for punishing bad approaches and b22/d4/f2 are good checks for when you get to a range where you wouldn't want to use something as heavy a commitment as a db2. For the characters like Sonya or Skarlet, the shield/db2 help her get a counter fireball in to start moving to a more favorable range. I almost forgot, her combo enders lend a hand in her zoning too. Any time she touches you, it can end in spin or AA head and they go flying back to full screen, unless you ex slide to push into the corner which makes her more dangerous when her KBs lead to actual damage.

She isnt a zoning character so I dont expect her zoning to be Cetrion level. I like her tools to deal with zoners. Your right about DB2, that shit is amazing.

Like I said before, I can't speak for the bomb variation because i refuse to touch it, I value the mixup/combos off Ice Machine's microburst too much to play it. I'm not coming in here to tell you guys that Frost is right behind her story mode time-pal in terms of strength, but I dont get how she could possibly considered one of the weakest in the game with how Ice Machine is atm. Especially when there's little info out there in terms of who loses to who and how/why and when the reason given for why she's bad is just her s1 whiffing as a punish against certain moves or w.e.

Frost-Byte is another level of bad. But Ice Machine is basically just gimmicks that cease to work as soon as you are faced with a character with better tools, or a charcater that can do more damage when they open you up. Shes good against scrubs but against good players, shes limited by her slow D1 confirm follow ups and her hitbox issues. Hell S1 punishes Scorpions teleport if its blocked on the right but not the left. That shit is stupid. She is legit broken and the fixes she needs wouldnt make her top tier but at least viable.

 

[vegeta]

Fought a frost last night. Beat the hell out of him. He squeezed out a win one time (after I’d won like 2 or 3 times) by flailing and doing random stuff. (At which point he cut on his mic and started talking nonsense before leaving and I’m like...it’s 3-1 you moron lol)
Anyway point is I rushed her down with scorpion and adjusted attack timings a tiny bit here and there and it was steamroll into death. Mid range I just duck/walked in to avoid f2 and block any b2. D1 destroys her. Hers is too slow. She can’t reverse check well.
When I got her to the corner she’s dead. You just watch out for wake ups and counter any jump out attempts. She suffers bad to staggers.

I then played another opponent. He used several characters. At one point when he switched again I decided it’s been a while lemme try her since my core game has evolved. Though I still kept winning it was a lot harder. The inconsistency she has with her attacks and her trouble even keeping up spacing when people figure out how to avoid all that and get in her face makes things rough.

I stand by my opinion that she probably doesn’t need like overhauls just some adjustments that allow her to even get momentum back. She kinda loses her turn by pressing anything.

 

[vegeta]

That said in all honesty with how I’m seeing the game work I think Frostbyte to me is a little more “useful” that Ice Machine strictly due to being able to force the opponent into a mistake or get an action out of them even if it’s just blocking. I feel like I have a little more control over their attempted aggression and neutral. The problem is in that variant I’m not really keeping up with the raw damage. If V1 had even V2 damage I’d be like ok...we might be able to salvage some stuff. I’ll keep researching. Might even run her and lab her today some more

 

[Wigy]

Man how does anyone stay on this character. You can't punish a thing, she can't play footsies at all. Her d3 is total dogshit. D4 is okay but punishable on block and absolutely death if they jump. S1 has no range at all so cant punish shit. S2- 13 frame high. Really?. B22 is death on whiff. Her projectiles are ass, you have to guess where they will be cause the travel time and I'm pretty sure it has blind spots, bf3 doesn't trade well at all.

Her staggers are gimmicks.

S1 S2 S3 F2 and b3(2) all whiff on crouch block for some characters.

Her jump in punch seems to always fucking whiff no matter what.

B12 is her mid check but is 16 frames and horrendous on block except for the last hit which I'm pretty sure is perfect block able.

Is her entire game just d1 or b22 spin and grab?

Her s1 needs more range, b1 needs to be faster. D3 needs to be usable, f2 needs to be an actual fucking high. There's literally not reason for someone to not just crouch block in neutral, so you're essentially risking a full combo for a shitty knockdown every time you use it. The head bomb needs to have a hitbox that isn't one nanometer.

 

[santanabar]

Is her entire game just d1 or b22 spin and grab?

Yup, basically that's it, mentioned a few posts before:

B22 into grab, b22 into spin + poke grab or go into back to neutral (you cant even hit confirm pokes because of shitty b1).
Well, that's all her "mixups".

And well.. against very few characters you can zone them a bit. That's all.

 

[Wigy]

Am I tripping or does her jump in have a horrific hitbox?

 

[MK Led]

Am I tripping or does her jump in have a horrific hitbox?

jump in 1,3 and 4 are fine, 2 is certainly a bit precise haha

 

[The Slaj Jazz]

Last hit of B1,2,1 whiffs randomly on some characters too. So annoying

 

[xKMMx]

Not fucking this again

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

People whining about their character not having OH is ridiculous. Almost no characters have OH.

 

[Pan1cMode]

She’s honestly not that bad a character, but struggles heavily in certain matchups.

If they fix her whiffing issues and nerf the top tiers she’ll be fine.

My personal wish list:

• b1 made 12 frames startup
• b121 doesn’t whiff
• s1 horizontal hitbox increased
• s2 made 10 frames startup
• f2 hits special high
• db2 hits special high

The only real buffs I’d like are faster s2 and b1. The rest are just whiffing issues that hit some of the cast, but not all.

 

[santanabar]

cool how ice bomb variation is such a pile of garbage that nobody even remember it's in the game

 

[Pan1cMode]

cool how ice bomb variation is such a pile of garbage that nobody even remember it's in the game

It’s honestly not that bad. If they made the changes I suggested above, I think it’d be in the same viability.

 

[Wigy]

It’s honestly not that bad. If they made the changes I suggested above, I think it’d be in the same viability.

Not being able to punish things even more and the bomb having the smallest hitbox ever.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

Patiently waiting for the J360 write up. Hopefully he makes a guide too. He's a tech monster and a old school legend.