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Shao Kahn Discussion Thread

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Everyone losing their minds over Shao Kahn just getting the same poke advantage that literally every character got.. It's not impressive. It's not that good. He's still absolute trash compared to all of the cast.

I have over 3,000 games on Shao. Like... trust me when I say these changes are minuscule and completely ineffective at making him competitive with other characters.
Because unlike other characters Shao has a plus 4 S1 to jail into and then a 10 frame mid into full combo to follow up with. Or if you still complain about the 10 frame mid you can jail into any of his S1 or S2 start strings now and confirm into shoulder too
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Does anybody know where to get Shaos new F4 brutal? I havent gotten any new ultimate brutals from the brutal difficulty towers
 

Pyrosis

Gentlemen, behold! My opinion!
Because unlike other characters Shao has a plus 4 S1 to jail into and then a 10 frame mid into full combo to follow up with. Or if you still complain about the 10 frame mid you can jail into any of his S1 or S2 start strings now and confirm into shoulder too
A plus 4 standing 1 doesn't make him even close to mid tier.
 

Error404

Noob
Shao now has real pressure , good anti-airs , godlike movement and some of the highest damage in the game. He is by no means great , but he is definetely usable
 

Error404

Noob
@Pyrosis what loadout are you playing on Shao ? I take BF2 (grounded) , annhilation and ground shatter. Though I might just swap ground shatter for the air version of BF2.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Shaos F43 will never be a fast, gapless, fully staggerable, free just do it mid like jacqui. You should have realized that when NRS made it cancellable 2nd hit and left those gaps there. It has to have the mind game attached to it or shao just becomes as dumb as jacqui but with hammer normals so even dumber. That string will always have mind games attached to it. I suggest learning the single hit F3 confirm that everyone refuses to even attempt so you have the safe 10 frame mid confirm or just drop the character and move on if you arent going tobuse the tools he already has.
 
shao kahn deserves to be stronger than jacqui and the best character in the game

anyone who says single hit confirm f3s are real are liars to boot. Its barely practical in training mode, let alone real world matches. The cancel window thats available to it means you have to have among the highest humanly possible reaction time to even attempt it.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
It doesnt matter if you dont confirm it 100% of the time, its an option people refuse to even attempt to learn. Not trying to work it into your gameplan at all because of you think the character should be something else and you just stay salty about it a year and a half later only hurts you. Also f3 has 4 active frames so can range from -8 to -5, it is not always punishable, and you can always cover that by going into f43 or cancelling into something else, thats part of the mind game.
 
Forcing yourself to rely on a tool that would be considered unusable to any other character isn't an option, its desperation to make something happen that isn't real.
 

Zer0_h0ur

XBL tag: South of Zero
Noob Saibot can reversal upshadow F3 and win the trade and gain spacing every time. I suck at FB'ing so usually switch to Noob against Shao and upshadow every F3. Eventually Shao has to raw 3 which is punishable on it's own.
Feels very very cheap lol.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Christ lol, i didnt say you have to f3 confirm every time. I said add it your arsenal, not just do f3 confirms only. You will still be whiff punishing into full combos, reversal shouldering, spacing out B3s to be safe, doing all your pokes it throw pressure and everything else too. Other characters do not have single button confirms like f3. Im pretty sure its "real" since i get a full combo off f3 this way in every shao match I play so idk what to tell you if you are going to refuse to use it out of stubbornness. If Im doing a F3 shoulder I still get 30%+ according to the real numbers that pop up on the screen.

Also as I already said, Shaos f3 has 4 active frames which means it is not always -8. If you are going to commit to something like up clone against a shao that actually spaces f3 then you will get blown up for that when he baits it and the spacing causes it to whiff.
 

Pyrosis

Gentlemen, behold! My opinion!
Other characters don't have single button confirms like F3 into Shoulder... because other characters don't have to rely on such a ridiculous thing. BECAUSE other characters have viable mid strings. How does Shao not deserve to have a viable mid string because of "hammer normals" when Spawn's fucking 3,4 and Back 1 exist in this game? How does Shao not deserve a viable mid string because he does too much damage when Spawn can get even higher damage and plays a similar game plan to Shao?

This is just a bunch of mental gymnastics to avoid admitting that he still, desperately, needs buffs and won't get them.

Like... if you're sitting here telling me that you don't get exploded when the opponent blocks your F3 into shoulder more often than you hit it... I simply just don't believe you. "Real" doesn't mean "can you actually do it" as im sure everyone here knows. Real, in this instance, means "its a viable thing to rely upon in a match" which F3 into Shoulder is ABSOLUTELY not, idc how much you practice it.
 

Pyrosis

Gentlemen, behold! My opinion!
Its not a case of being "too stubborn" to use a "tool" that he has. Its a clear case of cost effectiveness... The cost of practicing or relying upon F3 confirm into Shoulder is not worth. Ever. Sonicfox himself could descend from the Furry Heavens and decree it unto me and I still would say nah.
 

Pyrosis

Gentlemen, behold! My opinion!
All the other tactics you are saying to employ while throwing in F3 confirm Shoulder are all literally. NOT GOOD.

They're not good or they're more often just presenting the same options that the entire cast also just got access to with the patch... idk how many times I have to type this. Shao just getting plus frames on pokes is not enough to push him higher in value, when EVERY character received the same changes. If everyone gets plus frames on pokes and Shao gets plus frames on pokes and nothing else... then why would he suddenly be ANY better than he was before? He can jail into standing 1. So what. Jail into plus frames. So what. Its not enough and I refuse to pretend or act like it is.

Its honestly ignorant to pretend that its enough when he's got fuckin SHAFTED the entire games lifespan. Which like... I can bare. But people on TYM keep telling me that he's good now cause pokes I'm full tilted. Can't bare it, and its factually. Objectively. Wrong.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
  1. Shao was more limited by not having jails before than ither characters, so by fixing that it makes a bigger difference for him
  2. Other characters are not able to jail into a move that is plus on block after the jail as well. 2 times in a row Shao gets to take his turn off pokes if he wants instead of 1
  3. Your opinion on how much these changes help Shao is not objective fact. What is objective fact is that without f3 confirms your Shao will be unoptimized. Since this is a competitive site should want to be optimized. If the only thing stopping you from wanting to be optimized is "other characters dont have to do this" then the character is probably not for you.
 

Pyrosis

Gentlemen, behold! My opinion!
Before the patch:
Outside of punishes depend on Down 4 > After a down 4 hit, Strike/Throw OR spam S1 CAN'T jail into anything else > After a S1 hit on block > Strike/Throw

Jailing from S1 into Forward 3,4 not a great option as its a flawless blockable and leads to a full punish without spending meter to Up 2 or duck throw into Down 2 KB. Hit confirming off a single hit Forward 3 100% impractical after a blocked S1

After the patch:
Outside of punishes depend on Down 4, Down 3, Down 1 > After a down 4, 3, or 1 hit, Strike/Throw OR jail into S1 CAN jail into strings by they are NOT worth jailing into as every string is defeated by crouch block (All overhead strings can be interrupted/ONE string that hits low that's not F3,4)> After a S1 hit on block > Strike/Throw

Jailing from S1 into Forward 3,4 not a great option as its a flawless blockable and leads to a full punish without spending meter to Up 2 or duck throw into Down 2 KB. Hit confirming off a single hit Forward 3 100% impractical after a blocked S1

I literally cannot explain it better than this.



As for being un-optimized without have F3 confirms... this is an absolutely heinous point. This is so far beyond the truth that in actuality a Shao Kahn player is actually MORE optimized by not attempting to hit confirm F3. I can guarantee with absolute certainty that you are not consistently hitting F3 hit confirms in real matches. If you can, then post proof. Then me and the entire MK11 community can start listening to your Shao wisdom instead. As an aside, Videogamezyo... Best Shao Kahn player in the world unarguably, doesn't advise hit confirming F3.

Post proof you can hit confirm F3 consistently. I can bet that without a good bit of luck you won't be able to do it even 10 times in a row IN PRACTICE MODE. And for me to even come close to believing that you can land F3 to a degree of consistency that it is an actual legitimate tool that Shao Kahn has, do it 20 times in a row IN PRACTICE MODE.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
How is his jailing "not worth jailing into as every string is defeated by crouch block"

Thats how everyones jailing works. When someone takes their turn with standard strike throw mix the strike is safe confirmable string. Thats what shao can do now. The whole time you say dont strike throw with f3 cus of the gaps and unsafe but then with the chance to jail into something safe and confirmable with no gaps into shoulder its not good enough because its not an overhead?
 

Pyrosis

Gentlemen, behold! My opinion!
That's how jailing works. Sure. But there are GOOD strings to jail into and there are BAD strings to jail into... Like. Obviously. I don't understand how this is not the crux of why Shao Kahn is bad. The entire reason that he is bad is because his "best" string is probably the worst string in the game.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
And Shao can jail into 12, 14, or 21 which all don't have gaps and are safe and confirmable so how are those bad strings to jail into?
 

DixieFlatline78

Everyone Has A Path
142 is definitely worth jailing into. 1 is +4, 4 is -3, 2 has pushback and a flawless blockable gap.

I honestly think D4 is the mid to utilize. Long range, shrunk back hitbox, plus enough to dash up and jail a S14, enough pushback to backdash on block and whiff punish with b4 or 14. It'd be nice to just have F34 be safer, but this is what he's got.

There is stuff to work with here. I def dont think F3 confirms are it. Treat F3 like a raw launcher for a read that you could apply a mind game off of.

Yes Shao Kahn is low tier. But at least he can jail now, at least he doesn't have one useless variation move, at least he has an air projectile he can float with. He shits damage and has incredible corner carry. Bad tools for good rewards. He could be Robocop or Skarlet. Mediocre tools for mediocre rewards