Shaman Nightwolf discussion

[scarsunseen]

This character has a ton of mix! Let's keep Shaman-specific talk here please

 

[luckycow515]

Thoughts on a midscreen BnB? So far I've just been doing:
B13, BF4 MB, F12, BF1

It's 252 for one bar, which is fine, considering he seems to be a more mix heavy character.

 

[MerlinsBeard]

The roll is pretty slow, so the "mix' seems reactable and I've been jabbed out of it. You'll no doubt catch some people with it but it's been a mixed bag so far.

I think the star of this variation is the lighting arrow. Does 10% on hit and is a mid, so no ducking.

Overall, I play a slower pace with this one. I zone with the arrow then counter-zone with the reflect and get in with the roll.

 

[Thingy]

The roll is pretty slow, so the "mix' seems reactable and I've been jabbed out of it. You'll no doubt catch some people with it but it's been a mixed bag so far.

Not a fan of this variation. You are 100% correct here. The "mix" he gets in this variation is a bill. If you are playing someone who is half way decent, this "mix" will get blown up free.

 

[MerlinsBeard]

Thoughts on a midscreen BnB? So far I've just been doing:
B13, BF4 MB, F12, BF1

It's 252 for one bar, which is fine, considering he seems to be a more mix heavy character.

After launch you can do 1, F12 for a little more but 111 seems to do the most mid screen.

 

[WhamBamThanxSam]

Absolutely no reason to use this variation. He does barely any damage and the “mix” is slow and super reactable.

 

[MerlinsBeard]

Absolutely no reason to use this variation. He does barely any damage and the “mix” is slow and super reactable.

While I don't think this is better than his go to variation, I don't think it's that much worse. You give up the big damage of the other variation but how often do you get the full combo without them breaking out. Out of all the 3rd variations Night Wolf got one of the more usable one's.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

He may not be a combo monster in Shaman but I'm not subscribed to this idea that it's a useless variation. Imo its one of the better 3rds from last patch.

• That lightning arrow is very strong and does a ton of damage and out trades while hitting mid.
• 25% isn't bad the roll is also very effective at counter zoning by rolling under highs for a good chunk of damage.
• The roll/mid/throw/OH mix are pseudo-mix but its still effective and can be a strong mind games depending on how you condition your opponent.

I personally think its a very solid variation.
There is a ton of hyperbole going around about last patch. I think we should lab up for the next 3 months and find ways to make these variations strong instead of giving up on day 2

 

[WhamBamThanxSam]

I may have been hasty saying there is no reason to use this variation, but is it better than his standard high damage variation? I don't think so. Personally I'm a fan of big damage over mix, but its all about preference.

 

[Name v.5.0]

This variation isnt about mix at all. I normally play as Ancestral Gift, so I'm used to minimal damage up close. You REALLY dont need the mix. You can still stagger like crazy, and also have your KBs. This variation actually gets to combo too.

It's a zoning/counter zoning build with all the damage perks. That arrow is fucking nutty! You think you can jump over it, and then he holds it and fires on your way down. You wanna fire back? He'll roll into you, or reflect. It's really fucking good.

 

[WhamBamThanxSam]

This variation isnt about mix at all. I normally play as Ancestral Gift, so I'm used to minimal damage up close. You REALLY dont need the mix. You can still stagger like crazy, and also have your KBs. This variation actually gets to combo too.

It's a zoning/counter zoning build with all the damage perks. That arrow is fucking nutty! You think you can jump over it, and then he holds it and fires on your way down. You wanna fire back? He'll roll into you, or reflect. It's really fucking good.

I don't see how rolling under a projectile is a viable option. You have to roll on reaction from mid range for it to hit, which is going to be almost impossible. If they do an enhanced projectile you will get hit by the second projectile (not every character I know) and in Sonya's case thats a KB.

 

[MerlinsBeard]

I don't see how rolling under a projectile is a viable option. You have to roll on reaction from mid range for it to hit, which is going to be almost impossible. If they do an enhanced projectile you will get hit by the second projectile (not every character I know) and in Sonya's case thats a KB.

I agree the roll is slow to startup and you'll be better off reflecting some projectiles but with practice, I think you could react to some of the slower ones. As for the enhanced, I've rolled under both Sonyas and Kitanas, it may have just been a fluke but I've done it.

The roll is only -12 on block and it leaves out of stand 1 or 2 distance, with the exception of maybe Cetrion. They need an advancing special or normal that is 12 frames or faster. Now, there are plenty of things that can punish this but they need to know the proper punish and react in time. I see this move as kind of a skill check if they punish it I use it more carefully but if they can't I'm going to town.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I don't see how rolling under a projectile is a viable option. You have to roll on reaction from mid range for it to hit, which is going to be almost impossible. If they do an enhanced projectile you will get hit by the second projectile (not every character I know) and in Sonya's case thats a KB.

Like a lot of things in this game, you're going to have to make a read. Especially with a special that pops up.

Sometimes it's more about the threat of the roll, than actually going for it. Your opponent, if they're smart, is going to be careful about just throwing out a projectile if you're in that range.

That being said, there's a lot of things you can roll under on reaction to land an attack, and others you can roll under just to cover ground.

 

[scarsunseen]

I think this is definitely a good and usable variation. I'm not sure if it is as good as the other 2 variations, but I don't see a reason to say this is a bad variation at all.

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

Just watched Cherny use this variation on stream and he seems to be a solid variation, especially to counter certain characters.
I like that projectile, and the knockdown it provides is very solid. Plus that roll move is a quick get in move.
Seems more a zoning-neutral-spacing version instead of a 111 stagger heavy character. Gonna give it a whirl.

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

yeppp adding this character variation to my roster. Labbed ~1 hour and played only 5 casuals but ended up securing a couple wins against opponent I had 25% chance to beat. That's prob good enough to be used as a curveball in kombat league lol.

He does very well against most projectile characters in this game. That roll allows him to completely fuck neutral, duck under high projectiles and begin the up close oh/low/forward throw NW game. The speed is just amazing imo. Also, upon rewatching my few matches, his overall movement speed is just incredible...when you combine that with his nearly unreactable low roll, and the opponent has a split second to go from near full-screen comfort to guessing low, throw, strike. And the knockdown advantage even on projectile trades with lightning arrow is amazing. It's like as good as cassie's knee cappin. Wish you could meter burn it lol.

 

[undeadcookie456]

yeppp adding this character variation to my roster. Labbed ~1 hour and played only 5 casuals but ended up securing a couple wins against opponent I had 25% chance to beat. That's prob good enough to be used as a curveball in kombat league lol.

He does very well against most projectile characters in this game. That roll allows him to completely fuck neutral, duck under high projectiles and begin the up close oh/low/forward throw NW game. The speed is just amazing imo. Also, upon rewatching my few matches, his overall movement speed is just incredible...when you combine that with his nearly unreactable low roll, and the opponent has a split second to go from near full-screen comfort to guessing low, throw, strike. And the knockdown advantage even on projectile trades with lightning arrow is amazing. It's like as good as cassie's knee cappin. Wish you could meter burn it lol.

In all fairness, win chance is virtually meaningless in this game lol.

If you feel comfortable with it though, go for it. I haven't really given it or any of the third variations a try just yet, been too busy trying out Terminator.

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

In all fairness, win chance is virtually meaningless in this game lol.

If you feel comfortable with it though, go for it. I haven't really given it or any of the third variations a try just yet, been too busy trying out Terminator.

They're record way better than my trash record so figure it was a rough estimate at the least. I never been anything resembling competitive with a character I've only worked on for 1 hour, so to me it stood out.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

I think this variation is quite good actuallly. I've been playing for a week now and I'm getting good results. This variation is mostly about zoning/counter zoning and it is working great.

Mixups with 112/11 low slide/111 and 312/31 low slide are okay. Not great but can work sometimes.

Shaman has two weaknesses : The conversions and damage. You can't convert anything into amp slide. You can't convert 111 or f12 into amp slide so you can just convert into regular slide (but 111 doesn't connect with it). I can understand why they made it that way but was it really necessary to make it impossible to convert f12 into amp slide ? It feels so unnatural to do f1xxAMP slide to combo.

And this variation only have three specials : Reflect, Low Slide and Lighting Arrow. And that's the problem, because you lose your best combo ender (shoulder charge) and lighting arrow's hitbox is very tight when juggling. So i think the best way to end your combos is 112 because the recovery of Lighting Arrow on whiff is punishable by almost the whole cast when whiffed at the end of the combo. It is also very hard to end the combos in low slide because its juggle hitbox is tight. Using it is also very risky

The lighting arrow is great. You can trade with Cassie low gun shot everytime, and the delaying/cancelling the arrow gimmick is very useful to force the opponent to block anywhere on the map (avoid the lighting arrow at close distance because very unsafe even canceled).

So midscreen the damage is around 250.00~260.00 of a 11 and 290.00 off a b12/31. That's... okay I guess. I think it is a bit weak when you realize that the combos require good execution. The remaining damage will be dealt with the zoning and the meterless combos like 111 Lighting arrow and f12 Lighting Arrow. But all your meter should go in the amp slide anyways so you don't have the same problem you have with matoka warrior and ancestral gift.

And part of the damage weakness : This variation lacks good Krushing Blows. You lose the KB that comes with shoulder charge. So you have : the universal d2, 312 KB and forward/back throw. 312 is very situationnal and you won't be able to trigger the KB throws as much than with the other two variations.

I still think that Shaman is better than Ancestral Gift but Makota Warrior stays the best variation by far. It is still a good and reliable zoning/counter zoning variation. If you hate Terminator as much as I do, picking this variation would be a great pick.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

The roll is only -12 on block and it leaves out of stand 1 or 2 distance, with the exception of maybe Cetrion. They need an advancing special or normal that is 12 frames or fas

Valid point and good post but its actually beat by 11f advancing normals or faster not 12f

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

I think this variation is quite good actuallly. I've been playing for a week now and I'm getting good results. This variation is mostly about zoning/counter zoning and it is working great.

Mixups with 112/11 low slide/111 and 312/31 low slide are okay. Not great but can work sometimes.

Shaman has two weaknesses : The conversions and damage. You can't convert anything into amp slide. You can't convert 111 or f12 into amp slide so you can just convert into regular slide (but 111 doesn't connect with it). I can understand why they made it that way but was it really necessary to make it impossible to convert f12 into amp slide ? It feels so unnatural to do f1xxAMP slide to combo.

And this variation only have three specials : Reflect, Low Slide and Lighting Arrow. And that's the problem, because you lose your best combo ender (shoulder charge) and lighting arrow's hitbox is very tight when juggling. So i think the best way to end your combos is 112 because the recovery on whiff is punishable by almost the whole cast when whiffed at the end of the combo. It is also very hard to end the combos in low slide because the juggle hitbox is tight. Using it is also very risky

The lighting arrow is great. You can trade with Cassie low gun shot everytime, and the delaying/cancelling the arrow gimmick is very useful to force the opponent to block anywhere on the map (avoid the lighting arrow at close distance because very unsafe even canceled).

So midscreen the damage is around 250.00~260.00 of a 11 and 290.00 off a b12/31. That's... okay I guess. I think it is a bit weak when you realize that the combos require good execution. The remaining damage will be dealt with the zoning and the meterless combos like 111 Lighting arrow and f12 Lighting Arrow. But all your meter should go in the amp slide anyways so you don't have the same problem you have with matoka warrior and ancestral gift.

And part of the damage weakness : This variation lacks good Krushing Blows. You lose the KB that comes with shoulder charge. So you have : the universal d2, 132 KB and forward/back throw. 132 is very situationnal and you won't be able to trigger the KB throws as much than with the other two variations.

I still think that Shaman is better than Ancestral Gift but Makota Warrior stays the best variation by far. It is still a good and reliable zoning/counter zoning variation. If you hate Terminator as much as I do, picking this variation would be a great pick.

I liken his dmg to Noob's seeing double variation. Less in terms of combo, but you'll be getting that 10-25% dmg pretty often just by spacing and playing neutral. And his stagger-throw game is still deadly once you decide to get in if you want.
I agree about KB that part really sucks tho. But two throw KB's make any character potentially deadly

 

[MerlinsBeard]

While the high/low mixup is okay, I fell the threat of the mix and the long-range low attack is what's really important. Against the warrior variation, all you have to do is block mid/low/mid and you cover all his stings except b3-4-d4 and you can identify that string and block accordingly. This variation forces you to change the way you block against Night Wolf, and even if they never do the low you always have to be aware that they could and that's one more thing you have to think about and that helps enable his stagger and throw game.

The same goes for just doing it raw in neutral. Normally you have no reason to block low in neutral against Night Wolf but now you have to always be ready to block low and if you're focused on that you open yourself up to getting jumped and dashed in on.

As for projectiles, once they roll under 2 or 3 of them whether it's a reaction, a read, or just dumb luck you have to think about throwing projectiles or not. If they can stop you from using projectiles they will have free reign to use theirs and force you to approach.

I feel this variation is about making the opponent play your game by adding an extra layer to his offense and block pressure. Use the roll and reflect to counter zone and force the opponent to approach. This puts them in range of being whiff punished (which isn't nearly as damaging in this variation) and potentially having to deal with stagger/throw pressure plus the threat of the high/low.

Put all this together and you have a variation that forces the opponent to stay on their toes because the moment they lose focus they'll get caught with something.

 

[appo]

two videos from youtube

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Last night I found something pretty funky. If you cancel f2121 on the 3rd hit of the string into mb bf4 then go 111 into lightning arrow it’s registers as two different combos..

I tested out b13, b34, f12 and f21 (by itself) as combo starters and none of them carry this damage tally issue. Just found it odd and slightly awesome that we are getting a lil more damage than it seems. Made me switch from AG for some mu’s for sure.

Um

That's because f212~bf4(MB) isn't a link.

Wait is it?

 

[SparkySanders]

Um

That's because f212~bf4(MB) isn't a link.

Wait is it?

I thought it was? I could be wrong, I was hoping someone could provide some insight on why it was working like that.

Edit; I’m fairly certain it is because in matoka you can either do f21 or cancel on the third hit of f2121 into rising tomahawk amp for a combo.