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Scarecrows MU Chart

Evil Presence

Representing STB
This is my opinion. Feel free to blow me up if I'm totally wrong about something.
Agree or disagree?

Aquaman 5-5
Atrocitus 5-5
Bane 6-4
Batman 4-6
Brainiac 4-6
Black Canary 6-4
Black Adam 6-4
Black Manta 5-5
Blue Beetle 6-4
Captain Cold 5-5
Catwoman 5-5 or 4-6
Cheetah 6-4
Cyborg 6-4
Darkseid 4-6
Dr Fate 4-6
Deadshot 5-5
The Flash 6-4
Firestorm 4-6
Green Arrow 4-6
Green Lantern 5-5
Gorilla Grodd 6-4
Harley Quinn 5-5
Poison Ivy 5-5
Joker 5-5
Red Hood 4-6
Raiden ?-?
Robin 4-6
Starfire 5-5 or 4-6
Sub Zero 6-4
Superman 5-5
Supergirl 5-5
Swamp Thing 6-4
WonderWoman 4-6
 
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GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Starfire loses 7-3. Her zoning is ineffective due to teleport on fullscreen and range at mid-screen, her upclose game gets shut down by superior frames. She literally can't even get anything started with a d1.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
7-3 is a bit harsh. You really think teleport is quick enough? It has alot of recovery frames. I find that she does well at zoning him out.
You are not wrong. It's just the way I feel about the matchup right now, based on experience, frames, gut feeling. Definitely don't take my word for it and feel free to disagree, I'm no authority.
I just seem to be having trouble with the matchup and it feels like a right struggle right now.
Same with Red Hood though.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
That teleport is a bit harder to punish now with that buff. Personally I think the joker/scarecrow MU is 6-4 scarecrow favor. Joker can no longer mindlessly throw teeth out or use gunshot. The only way it seems I can punish the teleport is if I make the read.

Also, scarecrow outranges joker, outdamages joker, has better jump attacks, stronger neutral, better trait, stronger wake up and a stupid corner game. Not saying jokers corner game is bad, but in my opinion, scarecrow corner game is dumb simple and stupid effective, while jokers corner setups are gambles and room for potential punishment if blocked.

Again, All my personal opinion. If you have any other reasons why you think it's 5-5 definitely share, I could be missing something.
 

foxof42

Thanksgiving corner game, going ham and stuffing
That teleport is a bit harder to punish now with that buff. Personally I think the joker/scarecrow MU is 6-4 scarecrow favor. Joker can no longer mindlessly throw teeth out or use gunshot. The only way it seems I can punish the teleport is if I make the read.

Also, scarecrow outranges joker, outdamages joker, has better jump attacks, stronger neutral, better trait, stronger wake up and a stupid corner game. Not saying jokers corner game is bad, but in my opinion, scarecrow corner game is dumb simple and stupid effective, while jokers corner setups are gambles and room for potential punishment if blocked.

Again, All my personal opinion. If you have any other reasons why you think it's 5-5 definitely share, I could be missing something.
I don't see Joker's corner game as a gamble in the slightest. If they wake up, they're still eating the teeth plus a gunshot. Crow has better normals for getting in, but Joker can play a very good zoning game. If you think for a split second that you need to hold a J2, you're dead wrong. You can shoot Crow out of it every time. Don't like that option? MB B3, D2, and if it's a J2 - just duck, it whiffs on all but big body characters and only with extreme precision. You can also parry between J2 and F1. Teeth cover his F1 almost free, but you should also be on your toes with a D1 whiff punish.

And teleport... What? Are you serious? It's good, but it's not THAT good. It doesn't drastically alter matchups. Just because you aren't punishing it doesn't mean they aren't quite negative. The Crow player is putting themselves at a disadvantage by using that as a way in. It really should only be done on a hard read for moves like the mid hitting canister.

I think Joker can condition with zoning and come in to start his pressure just fine, and if he gets Crow in the corner, ggs, your blocking better be on point.

5/5. Source: I recently got to play Heeyge0rge's Joker using Scarecrow.
 

foxof42

Thanksgiving corner game, going ham and stuffing
Starfire loses 7-3. Her zoning is ineffective due to teleport on fullscreen and range at mid-screen, her upclose game gets shut down by superior frames. She literally can't even get anything started with a d1.
You gotta be joking. Teleport is YOLO, you gotta have a read or get punished. Her broken B3 covers his jump ins and F1. F2 range is dominated by her own. She beats him on every part of the screen except point blank and will always have meter to pushblock him away from that situation. It was 7/3 in Starfire's favor pre-patch and that hasn't really changed.
 

foxof42

Thanksgiving corner game, going ham and stuffing
I'll ask again.

Why does RH 4-6 Scarecrow?
Because a teleport buff doesn't change the MU, period. It still plays the same. The only thing I can say in Crow's favor is that a smart player can stuff or read RH's wakeups. He beats him everywhere until that happens.
 

foxof42

Thanksgiving corner game, going ham and stuffing
I can't see any reason why Crow beats Sub. Sub can approach, Crow cannot. Any additional thoughts on this?
 

foxof42

Thanksgiving corner game, going ham and stuffing
Oh, and why is Crow/Adam not 6/4? And why is Brainiac not 4/6?
 

Evil Presence

Representing STB
Oh, and why is Crow/Adam not 6/4? And why is Brainiac not 4/6?
Scarecrow and Adam is a match I've played many times! I agree it's slightly in Scarecrows favor but still a 5-5. On knockdown scarecrow is all over Adam. But midscreen Adam takes it.

Why do the think Brainiac 4-6 over Crow?
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
You gotta be joking. Teleport is YOLO, you gotta have a read or get punished. Her broken B3 covers his jump ins and F1. F2 range is dominated by her own. She beats him on every part of the screen except point blank and will always have meter to pushblock him away from that situation. It was 7/3 in Starfire's favor pre-patch and that hasn't really changed.
That's some good info to go on. A friend has been helping me with the mu too, I'm getting a bit more confident.
Thanks for correcting me.
 

foxof42

Thanksgiving corner game, going ham and stuffing
Scarecrow and Adam is a match I've played many times! I agree it's slightly in Scarecrows favor but still a 5-5. On knockdown scarecrow is all over Adam. But midscreen Adam takes it.

Why do the think Brainiac 4-6 over Crow?
Fair, we can agree on that in the Adam MU.

Brainiac is not at all under any obligation to go in on Crow. It's an unusual matchup for Brainiac in the sense that he can play full turtle. Once trait is out, it becomes very difficult to approach him. Jumping spells death. You have to walk him down and play a reactionary game midscreen just like Adam. If he gets you in the corner, it can get very oppressive very fast. And despite not having a fully invincible wakeup, you have to make sure your meaties are on point or you won't be able to enforce your own corner game.

For Brainiac players who don't know the MU and want to aggress all the time by jumping in from halfscreen, the MU is even. A Brainiac player who knows how to lame puts it strongly in their favor though. Source: Myztery_BOT, TitaniumTigerz, Scar.
 
Scarecrow options against Clone

22
F3
B3
D3
F133
Teleport
Db2 (If thrown)

I've always thought Scarecrow beat Sub Zero from the moment they announced Sub as a character. His toolset by default seemed to be the perfect counter.

As far as RH is concerned:

The problem pre patch was that Scarecrow had no real answer for the style of zoning RH came equipped with. Every mine toss you had to gamble on whether to jumper, forward dash or just block, all the while RH was building considerably more meter. You couldn't even reliably db2 Gotham Stars because of the mine.

Now, the match up has changed only that the mine isn't as plus as it was before (If memory serves) and RH builds a little less meter than he did pre-patch. In a sense it's similar to the Batman match up where it's somewhat easier, but still not great.

In my opinion anyway.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
I don't see Joker's corner game as a gamble in the slightest. If they wake up, they're still eating the teeth plus a gunshot. Crow has better normals for getting in, but Joker can play a very good zoning game. If you think for a split second that you need to hold a J2, you're dead wrong. You can shoot Crow out of it every time. Don't like that option? MB B3, D2, and if it's a J2 - just duck, it whiffs on all but big body characters and only with extreme precision. You can also parry between J2 and F1. Teeth cover his F1 almost free, but you should also be on your toes with a D1 whiff punish.

And teleport... What? Are you serious? It's good, but it's not THAT good. It doesn't drastically alter matchups. Just because you aren't punishing it doesn't mean they aren't quite negative. The Crow player is putting themselves at a disadvantage by using that as a way in. It really should only be done on a hard read for moves like the mid hitting canister.

I think Joker can condition with zoning and come in to start his pressure just fine, and if he gets Crow in the corner, ggs, your blocking better be on point.

5/5. Source: I recently got to play Heeyge0rge's Joker using Scarecrow.
Not all of jokers teeth set ups are plus my dude. As a matter of fact, the only ones that are plus are the ones that end with you having to block teeth. But even if you have to block teeth, you can just pushblock and jokers back in neutral where scarecrow has the advantage.

Joker has no plus frame strings other then f21, which is slow and can be blocked and push blocked easy.

Joker has no mix ups outside of corner teeth setups. Crowbar, rolling can, teeth and even spinning can (his new special) be punished and reacted to with ease.

Gunshot is not plus on block, only on hit and it's a high so idk how that's relevant.

Jokers d2 can't be used as a reactionary anti-air due to slow start up, and is -17 on block, so if you're consistently getting hit with it, you're jumping way too much.

Scarecrow has better ranged jump attacks and an amazing j3 with a big hitbox and cross up that leads to amazing damage and positioning. Scarecrow j3 can't be d2'd by joker on reaction, only by read.

And if you teleport on read of a gunshot or rolling or throwing can, joker can't punish due to recovery.

Even if you teleport and have to block immediately after you teleport, that's a win for you because you're in and joker has no mix ups.

And crows wake up pushes joker back, even if he takes the teeth pop.

Maybe you should learn jokers teeth setups. They aren't all plus, and some you can even d1 bounce cancel and ignore it completely or punish once you have successfully blocked them.

Jokers teeth setups are for the most part gimmicks, unsafe ones at that. The fact that people allow joker players to cancel into teeth from blockstrings shows peoples lack of knowledge in the MU.

Have you played any other joker besides before besides hey george or labbed joker to see how he operates?

I'm not saying scarecrow beats joker by a land slide, I'm saying scarecrow has an advantage in the MU.
 
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Evil Presence

Representing STB
Fair, we can agree on that in the Adam MU.

Brainiac is not at all under any obligation to go in on Crow. It's an unusual matchup for Brainiac in the sense that he can play full turtle. Once trait is out, it becomes very difficult to approach him. Jumping spells death. You have to walk him down and play a reactionary game midscreen just like Adam. If he gets you in the corner, it can get very oppressive very fast. And despite not having a fully invincible wakeup, you have to make sure your meaties are on point or you won't be able to enforce your own corner game.

For Brainiac players who don't know the MU and want to aggress all the time by jumping in from halfscreen, the MU is even. A Brainiac player who knows how to lame puts it strongly in their favor though. Source: Myztery_BOT, TitaniumTigerz, Scar.
I'll agree to that. Changed to 4-6
 
That teleport is a bit harder to punish now with that buff. Personally I think the joker/scarecrow MU is 6-4 scarecrow favor. Joker can no longer mindlessly throw teeth out or use gunshot. The only way it seems I can punish the teleport is if I make the read.

Also, scarecrow outranges joker, outdamages joker, has better jump attacks, stronger neutral, better trait, stronger wake up and a stupid corner game. Not saying jokers corner game is bad, but in my opinion, scarecrow corner game is dumb simple and stupid effective, while jokers corner setups are gambles and room for potential punishment if blocked.

Again, All my personal opinion. If you have any other reasons why you think it's 5-5 definitely share, I could be missing something.
I think it's 5-5. When I play this match up I use a lot of parries to catch grounded attacks. You can throw out gunshots and bait teleports which are still super punishable on recovery (that only got 2 frames faster on recovery iirc it's still like -25) and you only need to punish it once or twice for Scarecrow players to start respecting it.

You should have more meter from zoning so if Scarecrow jumps in and starts doing mb fear blasts for plus frames you can just pushblock and go bar for bar. From Push block distance there's a little chess match that can happen as to whether you want to back dash or armor

The wake up/death spin is great in this match up because it's a special move that sends your opponent full screen. All you need to do is land it once to reset back in your favor. Scarecrow's b3/f3 are sometimes slow enough to parry on reaction.
 
This is my opinion. Feel free to blow me up if I'm totally wrong about something.
Agree or disagree?

Aquaman 5-5
Atrocitus 5-5
Bane 6-4
Batman 4-6
Brainiac 4-6
Black Canary 6-4
Black Adam 5-5
Black Manta 5-5
Blue Beetle 5-5
Captain Cold 5-5
Catwoman 5-5 or 4-6
Cheetah 5-5 or 6-4
Cyborg 5-5
Darkseid 4-6
Dr Fate 4-6
Deadshot 5-5
The Flash 6-4
Firestorm 4-6
Green Arrow 4-6
Green Lantern 5-5 or 4-6
Gorilla Grodd 6-4
Harley Quinn 5-5
Poison Ivy 5-5
Joker 5-5
Red Hood 4-6
Raiden ?-?
Robin 4-6
Starfire 5-5 or 4-6
Sub Zero 6-4
Superman 5-5
Supergirl 4-6
Swamp Thing 6-4
WonderWoman 4-6
Decent chart. I have a few comments:

I still think Aqua is a 4-6. Just rough to get in. Could be a 5-5 though.

Black Adam is 6-4. It's not too hard to rush him down and he gets obliterated on knockdown and in the corner.

Green Lantern is 5-5. There's no way we lose this. We contend with him on footsies and can abuse him on knockdown.

Supergirl is also 5-5. We contend with her from footsie range and can abuse her on knockdown. d2 is a good option for her wakeups.

I'm hesitant to say we beat Swamp Thing. It can be hard to approach him with his far reaching normals. He also can easily bait our wake up and punish. This seems like a 5-5.
 
Not all of jokers teeth set ups are plus my dude. As a matter of fact, the only ones that are plus are the ones that end with you having to block teeth. But even if you have to block teeth, you can just pushblock and jokers back in neutral where scarecrow has the advantage.

Joker has no plus frame strings other then f21, which is slow and can be blocked and push blocked easy.

Joker has no mix ups outside of corner teeth setups. Crowbar, rolling can, teeth and even spinning can (his new special) be punished and reacted to with ease.

Gunshot is not plus on block, only on hit and it's a high so idk how that's relevant.

Jokers d2 can't be used as a reactionary anti-air due to slow start up, and is -17 on block, so if you're consistently getting hit with it, you're jumping way too much.

Scarecrow has better ranged jump attacks and an amazing j3 with a big hitbox and cross up that leads to amazing damage and positioning. Scarecrow j3 can't be d2'd by joker on reaction, only by read.

And if you teleport on read of a gunshot or rolling or throwing can, joker can't punish due to recovery.

Even if you teleport and have to block immediately after you teleport, that's a win for you because you're in and joker has no mix ups.

And crows wake up pushes joker back, even if he takes the teeth pop.

Maybe you should learn jokers teeth setups. They aren't all plus, and some you can even d1 bounce cancel and ignore it completely or punish once you have successfully blocked them.

Jokers teeth setups are for the most part gimmicks, unsafe ones at that. The fact that people allow joker players to cancel into teeth from blockstrings shows peoples lack of knowledge in the MU.

Have you played any other joker besides before besides hey george or labbed joker to see how he operates?

I'm not saying scarecrow beats joker by a land slide, I'm saying scarecrow has an advantage in the MU.
112 is +5
21 is +3
213 is 0
f3/b3 are +6
Mb Gas canister +6

How many plus frame strings does he need?

Joker has no mix-ups? He has a low combo starter with b1 and an overhead combo starter with b2 that can be cancelled into low or overhead specials.

It's also kind of unfair for you to mention that d2 is -17 on block without mentioning that you can cancel it into any special including parry to catch quick punishes. It's only super unsafe if you do a raw d2 on block with no follow up.

Scarecrow's wake up is definitely not better than Joker's. Joker makes you guess between parry and deathspin which is relatively safe unless you do a just frame 6 frame punish which is not so easy.

You can definitely convert off a teeth pop if you block Scarecrow's wake up and he takes the hit. Definitely easy to follow up with a jump in.

Sure, you can't take Scarecrow out of the air necessarily but that's one of the things Scarecrow's really good at. If he didn't have that then Joker would win this match up free.

I'm not tryna up-play Joker but he's not as bad as you're making it seem. He has options.
 

foxof42

Thanksgiving corner game, going ham and stuffing
Not all of jokers teeth set ups are plus my dude. As a matter of fact, the only ones that are plus are the ones that end with you having to block teeth. But even if you have to block teeth, you can just pushblock and jokers back in neutral where scarecrow has the advantage.

Joker has no plus frame strings other then f21, which is slow and can be blocked and push blocked easy.

Joker has no mix ups outside of corner teeth setups. Crowbar, rolling can, teeth and even spinning can (his new special) be punished and reacted to with ease.

Gunshot is not plus on block, only on hit and it's a high so idk how that's relevant.

Jokers d2 can't be used as a reactionary anti-air due to slow start up, and is -17 on block, so if you're consistently getting hit with it, you're jumping way too much.

Scarecrow has better ranged jump attacks and an amazing j3 with a big hitbox and cross up that leads to amazing damage and positioning. Scarecrow j3 can't be d2'd by joker on reaction, only by read.

And if you teleport on read of a gunshot or rolling or throwing can, joker can't punish due to recovery.

Even if you teleport and have to block immediately after you teleport, that's a win for you because you're in and joker has no mix ups.

And crows wake up pushes joker back, even if he takes the teeth pop.

Maybe you should learn jokers teeth setups. They aren't all plus, and some you can even d1 bounce cancel and ignore it completely or punish once you have successfully blocked them.

Jokers teeth setups are for the most part gimmicks, unsafe ones at that. The fact that people allow joker players to cancel into teeth from blockstrings shows peoples lack of knowledge in the MU.

Have you played any other joker besides before besides hey george or labbed joker to see how he operates?

I'm not saying scarecrow beats joker by a land slide, I'm saying scarecrow has an advantage in the MU.
I think you thought I was saying was that you always have to hold plus frames after a teeth setup, but I agree that's not the case. What I said was that if you wake up, you get popped up by teeth and an easy convert for Joker after that is to connect a gunshot. ("Teeth plus gunshot.") This means if you wake up, you will always be outdamaged/punished for free, so the risk/reward is always in Joker's favor unless you have a considerable life lead. I would contrast this with, for example, Superman's wakeup rising grab.

Putting yourself negative is never a win. If you aren't mashing like a maniac, you can eat pressure, a grab, an overhead, etc. You're downplaying Joker's closeup game pretty hard.

On that note, not having a reactionary D2 goes both ways 100%. Crow has an excellent J3 to compliment a floaty jump. Even if you can't D2 it, you're almost guaranteed a reactionary MB B3. However, Joker's jump arc is much faster, so Crow pretty much has to make a read, hold it, or pushblock.

Btw, D1 bounce cancel? Do you maybe mean D2 bounce cancel? My option I use against teeth on block is D2 cmd grab because it moves you past the teeth on hit or block. 9/10 times it's on block or because they were pressing buttons, though. I'm afraid my reactions aren't that good when I'm blocking high trying to fuzzy a canister.
 
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DubiousShenron

Beware my power.
Why can't scarecrow players deal with projectiles? Serious question, he has every option to counter them and once he gets up close it should be curtains. All he needs to do is make you block a j2 from mid screen and he's in