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Scarecrows MU Chart

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
I think you thought I was saying was that you always have to hold plus frames after a teeth setup, but I agree that's not the case. What I said was that if you wake up, you get popped up by teeth and an easy convert for Joker after that is to connect a gunshot. ("Teeth plus gunshot.") This means if you wake up, you will always be outdamaged/punished for free, so the risk/reward is always in Joker's favor unless you have a considerable life lead. I would contrast this with, for example, Superman's wakeup rising grab.

Ahh I gotcha yeah joker can do more then that if joker blocked scarecrow wake up with teeth out. Thats assuming scarecrow would wake up though. Joker always has to take scarecrows wake up into account when trying to do a set up. Scarecrow can just wake up blocking the teeth and push block the teeth block stun and joker immediately lost any chance at pressure.

Basically, all I'm saying is the reason why I think scarecrow wins is because joker has to play it super safe if he's going to win. Scarecrows tools are superior and now that he has a better teleport where he can make a read off a joker gunshot or canister and be in jokers face. Even if he has to block after the teleport, joker has no viable mix ups so scarecrow is where he wants to be.

Great discussion btw!!
 

foxof42

Thanksgiving corner game, going ham and stuffing
Ahh I gotcha yeah joker can do more then that if joker blocked scarecrow wake up with teeth out. Thats assuming scarecrow would wake up though. Joker always has to take scarecrows wake up into account when trying to do a set up. Scarecrow can just wake up blocking the teeth and push block the teeth block stun and joker immediately lost any chance at pressure.

Basically, all I'm saying is the reason why I think scarecrow wins is because joker has to play it super safe if he's going to win. Scarecrows tools are superior and now that he has a better teleport where he can make a read off a joker gunshot or canister and be in jokers face. Even if he has to block after the teleport, joker has no viable mix ups so scarecrow is where he wants to be.

Great discussion btw!!
I disagree that he doesn't have viable mixups, but I also appreciate the discourse remaining chill. :) I don't get to play nearly enough Joker, HMU and we can run the MU. My PSN is the same, foxof42.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
112 is +5
21 is +3
213 is 0
f3/b3 are +6
Mb Gas canister +6

How many plus frame strings does he need?

Joker has no mix-ups? He has a low combo starter with b1 and an overhead combo starter with b2 that can be cancelled into low or overhead specials.

It's also kind of unfair for you to mention that d2 is -17 on block without mentioning that you can cancel it into any special including parry to catch quick punishes. It's only super unsafe if you do a raw d2 on block with no follow up.

Scarecrow's wake up is definitely not better than Joker's. Joker makes you guess between parry and deathspin which is relatively safe unless you do a just frame 6 frame punish which is not so easy.

You can definitely convert off a teeth pop if you block Scarecrow's wake up and he takes the hit. Definitely easy to follow up with a jump in.

Sure, you can't take Scarecrow out of the air necessarily but that's one of the things Scarecrow's really good at. If he didn't have that then Joker would win this match up free.

I'm not tryna up-play Joker but he's not as bad as you're making it seem. He has options.

I'm sorry, you're right about his plus strings. Let me clarify, what I meant is that none of those strings lead to anything viable once canceled into a special if blocked.

Example, 21 has pushback on block and the only followup you would have is b1 if they decide to take it. 21 into canister can be neutral jumped into full combo punish or easy to block on reaction. If blocked, its +5, last I remember, I could be wrong, also has pushback. The only thing joker can follow up with is b1 if your opponent doesn't just backdash away afterwards.

213 is 0 on block and can't be canceled last I remember so your opponent can easily challenge that with a d1 or even a mb f/b3 if they wanted or backdash.

112 is + but has pushback and anything canceled afterward is easily reacted to.

F/b3 isn't a string and most characters are plus on block anyway

Rolling canister canceled from any string can be poked or neutral jumped for a full combo so that's a gimmick.

Jokers b1 can only connect with his crowbar, which does 120-160 depending on of you mb or not, and throws them out of his strike range, and mb gunshot and it still has some whiff issues on characters, so its not super reliable.

B2 is slow and only connects with crowbar and mb gunshot.

Mb gunshot combos aren't very damaging and push opponents away from joker, which in some cases isn't a good thing.

Deathspin is -7 on block and can be punished. Tee Jay, I can't remember his name otherwise I would tag him, was punishing it yesterday pretty consistently.

Finally any string joker cancels into teeth is a gimmick and the fact that people don't challenge it is a lack of MU knowledge. If you don't have a forward advancing string or special you can easily challenge any teeth cancel with a d1 bounce cancel which ignores the teeth pop completely and gives up jokers turn.
 
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foxof42

Thanksgiving corner game, going ham and stuffing
Scarecrow options against Clone

22
F3
B3
D3
F133
Teleport
Db2 (If thrown)

I've always thought Scarecrow beat Sub Zero from the moment they announced Sub as a character. His toolset by default seemed to be the perfect counter.

As far as RH is concerned:

The problem pre patch was that Scarecrow had no real answer for the style of zoning RH came equipped with. Every mine toss you had to gamble on whether to jumper, forward dash or just block, all the while RH was building considerably more meter. You couldn't even reliably db2 Gotham Stars because of the mine.

Now, the match up has changed only that the mine isn't as plus as it was before (If memory serves) and RH builds a little less meter than he did pre-patch. In a sense it's similar to the Batman match up where it's somewhat easier, but still not great.

In my opinion anyway.
I was 100% sure that Crow took it too for the same reasons that Lasher did in MKX. Playing BOT's Sub, though, I have adjusted my thinking. The problem isn't getting around clone, it's getting whiff punished midscreen for an easy carry to the corner. All of Crow's best buttons (even F2!) become very risky to use midscreen when clone is ready to use. Only the most amateur of Sub players would pop clone and call it good. Even if they back off, fear wave eats it.

Where I'm going with this is a good Sub player will rush you down and make you afraid to press a button. Hence, "they can approach, you cannot."

...or maybe I'm just trash and got rek'd lol. I could see how a generic Sub approach could lose to a generic Crow approach.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
I disagree that he doesn't have viable mixups, but I also appreciate the discourse remaining chill. :) I don't get to play nearly enough Joker, HMU and we can run the MU. My PSN is the same, foxof42.
I just sent you a friend request I would definitely be down for some games and of course, my opinion can change. It's an opinion after all lol I also did a breakdown in response to the guy talking about jokers tech. I think what really hurts people vs joker is the lack of character knowledge tbh. Once you understand his stuff, he is much easier to navigate.
 

foxof42

Thanksgiving corner game, going ham and stuffing
I'm sorry, you're right about his plus strings. Let me clarify, what I meant is that none of those strings lead to anything viable once canceled into a special if blocked.

Example, 21 has pushback on block and the only followup you would have is b1 if they decide to take it. 21 into canister can be neutral jumped into full combo punish or easy to block on reaction. If blocked, its +5, last I remember, I could be wrong, also has pushback. The only thing joker can follow up with is b1 if your opponent doesn't just backdash away afterwards.

213 is 0 on block and can't be canceled last I remember so your opponent can easily challenge that with a d1 or even a mb f/b3 if they wanted or backdash.

112 is + but has pushback and anything canceled afterward is easily reacted to.

F/b3 isn't a string and most characters are plus on block anyway

Rolling canister canceled from any string can be poked or neutral jumped for a full combo so that's a gimmick.

Jokers b1 can only connect with his crowbar, which does 120-160 depending on of you mb or not, and throws them out of his stroke range, and mb gunshot and it still has some whiff issues on characters

B2 is slow and only connects with crowbar and mb gunshot.

Mb gunshot combos aren't very damaging and push opponents away from joker, which in some cases isn't a good thing.

Deathspin is -7 on block and can be punished. Tee Jay, I can't remember his name otherwise I would tag him, was punishing it yesterday pretty consistently.

Finally any string joker cancels into teeth is a gimmick and the fact that people don't challenge it is a lack of MU knowledge. If you don't have a forward advancing string or special you can easily challenge any teeth cancel with a d1 bounce cancel which ignores the teeth pop completely and gives up jokers turn.
I could swear I saw a gunshot combo that lead to 310 and corner carry. I think it was something like

(Starter) df1 MB dash D2-dd3 D1 D1 B3 J2 F2 db3

I didn't know b1-gun still had whiffing issues though
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
I could swear I saw a gunshot combo that lead to 310 and corner carry. I think it was something like

(Starter) df1 MB dash D2-dd3 D1 D1 B3 J2 F2 db3

I didn't know b1-gun still had whiffing issues though
No your right but compared to what other characters consistently get, mixed with the execution, you're still taking the risk and in some MU's corner carry isn't as important as running away lol example black canary and scarecrow lol and therr still is gun whiffing issues as we are discovering in our discord. now don't get me wrong, as I said, joker has the tools to handle scarecrow, I personally think that scarecrow has superior tools
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
I think it's 5-5. When I play this match up I use a lot of parries to catch grounded attacks. You can throw out gunshots and bait teleports which are still super punishable on recovery (that only got 2 frames faster on recovery iirc it's still like -25) and you only need to punish it once or twice for Scarecrow players to start respecting it.

You should have more meter from zoning so if Scarecrow jumps in and starts doing mb fear blasts for plus frames you can just pushblock and go bar for bar. From Push block distance there's a little chess match that can happen as to whether you want to back dash or armor

The wake up/death spin is great in this match up because it's a special move that sends your opponent full screen. All you need to do is land it once to reset back in your favor. Scarecrow's b3/f3 are sometimes slow enough to parry on reaction.

Btw I hope I'm not offending you and Its cool that we can go back and forth without throwing salt lol everything I'm saying is strictly my opinion and can change.

Joker has the tools to handle scarecrow, I just think scarecrows tools are superior.

Are you on psn?
 

AkioOf100

I play Raph
Not sure if I should have went to the Scarecrow general discussion thread, but I really need to fight a good scarecrow for the Beetle / Scarecrow MU. I've always found it really hard to stay in the air against him, thanks to some of his strings anti-airing about 75% of the screen and it feels like it's in his favor. Beetle has to zone him but with that new teleport buff, it's really hard to.
 

Espio

Kokomo
Lead Moderator
Not sure if I should have went to the Scarecrow general discussion thread, but I really need to fight a good scarecrow for the Beetle / Scarecrow MU. I've always found it really hard to stay in the air against him, thanks to some of his strings anti-airing about 75% of the screen and it feels like it's in his favor. Beetle has to zone him but with that new teleport buff, it's really hard to.
That's cause it realistically is. Even before the teleport buff, Beetle cannot keep Scarecrow out while Scarecrow outfootsies him and has the ability to keep him out of the air with godlike long ranged jump normals and strings with such absurd range that he can catch you attempting to move from half screen away. You can use your trait but Scarecrow is still better footsie wise than Beetle in this stance with more sustainable offense and chip.

Blue Beetle just simply has to work harder than Scarecrow in this match up, it's frustrating to play and has been against good Scarecrows like Whiteboi and Chongo for the last four plus months, 6-4 Scarecrow's favor is pretty much the deal. This match up is exhausting.
 

AkioOf100

I play Raph
That's cause it realistically is. Even before the teleport buff, Beetle cannot keep Scarecrow out while Scarecrow outfootsies him and has the ability to keep him out of the air with godlike long ranged jump normals and strings with such absurd range that he can catch you attempting to move from half screen away. You can use your trait but Scarecrow is still better footsie wise than Beetle in this stance with more sustainable offense and chip.

Blue Beetle just simply has to work harder than Scarecrow in this match up, it's frustrating to play and has been against good Scarecrows like Whiteboi and Chongo for the last four plus months, 6-4 Scarecrow's favor is pretty much the deal. This match up is exhausting.
I knew I wasn't crazy. LOL. I feel like Scarecrow somewhat has some troubles against our J3 in trait though. If we can somehow get above him and stay above him, his slow d2 can't really anti-air us. And we can punish his wakeup consistently with trait in the corner.

I feel like this is a fight of whoever gets who in the corner first but Scarecrow is much better at doing it than us.
 
F1 being grab immune, j3, b3, better damage & murders Bane while in de-buff. You'd have to ask Whiteboi on the match up specifics. It's been a while since we talked about that MU in particular.
 

GrimJack

Rock paper scissor specialist
F1 being grab immune, j3, b3, better damage & murders Bane while in de-buff. You'd have to ask Whiteboi on the match up specifics. It's been a while since we talked about that MU in particular.
I'm just curious because Bane murder SC on knockdown
 

Evil Presence

Representing STB
Why does he beat Bane?
He beats bane in the neutral and doesn't really need to approach bane unless he was too.
Bane cannot charge him because scarecrow easily jumps over and the Massive j3 will hit him.
Scarecrow dishes out major damage as well.
Bane can't do anything about scarecrow F3.

Biohazard says it's a bad MU as well.
 
Bane does murder Crow on knockdown. You can't back dash his command grab and with Venom it will blow through fear blast. However, Scarecrow does win in all other areas of the screen.

As far as Black Adam is concerned, Scarecrow wins with a clear 6-4. He can of course be out played, as can any match up, but his tools make it difficult for Adam to get the ball rolling once Scarecrow gets in.
 

Espio

Kokomo
Lead Moderator
Also, Cheetah loses to Scarecrow. He beats her up close, blows up leap reliably and Scarecrow gets damage over time pretty freely versus her. Her neutral is terrible while his is superb. He beats her in pokes, beats her in chip and her wake up is pretty easy to stuff with Scarecrow so she pretty much has to hold a lot from him. I know you already have it teetering but Scarecrow controls too much of the screen and is too comfortable up close with a decent enough wake up and come back potential to comfortably win this.
 

foxof42

Thanksgiving corner game, going ham and stuffing
Not sure if I should have went to the Scarecrow general discussion thread, but I really need to fight a good scarecrow for the Beetle / Scarecrow MU. I've always found it really hard to stay in the air against him, thanks to some of his strings anti-airing about 75% of the screen and it feels like it's in his favor. Beetle has to zone him but with that new teleport buff, it's really hard to.
I also think it's in Crow's favor until Beetle gets a knockdown. His zoning is pretty easy to navigate with Crow, but that's not really the way the MU should be played. I mean at all lol. If you're playing purely to keep Crow out, you're not going to get very far.

I play Vex on the regular and the scariest thing to me is when he pops trait and starts playing footsies. Jumping is generally a bad idea because of Beetle's antiair properties on his F2. F1 is out of the question because it can be very easily whiff punished with his 6f D2. That means you're playing for scoring a F2-gas blast and chasing down to make reads on Oki.

Meanwhile, if Beetle can score a knockdown with F2, he can freely flight pressure Crow into mixes and there really isn't much that Crow can do about it. Unless I have a read, I generally pushblock. I haven't explored wakeup teleport, but it seems like a bad option *especially* in the corner when Beetle can meaty a J3 into flight pressure.

The average Crow player will still probably beat the average Beetle player. But if you want to learn how to play the MU well, take tips from Vex and pop that trait my guy.
 
Reactions: Vex