Scarecrow MU Chart

[Hellz HitmaN]

He doesn't beat Swamp anymore. 5-5

 

[GJX7]

He doesn't beat Swamp anymore. 5-5

Hmm If you can give any specific reasons for this that would be great! All in all I think Scarecrow has stronger pressure, better normals and controls the pace of the match

 

[GJX7]

https://testyourmight.com/moods/mood-chooser

Omfg thank youuu!

 

[foxof42]

He doesn't beat Swamp anymore. 5-5

I've grinded both sides of this MU and think Crow has a distinct advantage. Chucking logs in neutral makes it reeeally easy to be opened up with a J2 and clone can be forward dashed in on so it's not all that effective as a keep away tool. Up vines (startup of 14) are the only threat against jump ins because his wall bounce armor is so ridiculously slow. If you whiff up vines, you're getting punished for a lot more than what you would get from them. Swampy's F2 can compete with his range, but can be easily armored unlike Crow's F1/F2. It's fair to say that the meta of MB B3 from Crow will set the tone for the match as it shuts down most if not all of his offensive options.

Defensively, Swamp Thing suffers badly. His D2 is serviceable against a close range J3, but beyond that, he's still going to suffer from aerial threats which is where Crow likes to be. Answers like MB B3 and instant J1 just aren't on the table. He also doesn't build substantial meter in neutral so he's going to have to make a lot of reads on plus frames and D1 mixes. If he does guess right, he has to commit to an instant J3 or his slow jump arc will actually have him coming down minus from an instant J1. The best tool he has in the MU is his garden, but the armor from garden doesn't start up instantaneously, so it isn't an option against frame advantage the way Bane's is. If the ST player can't consistently whiff punish a whiffed F1, neutral belongs to Crow.

Basically, some of ST's best options do nothing but open him up in this MU. Swamp Thing's options come together against an opponent that is walking back and that's just not the case here.

 

[Hellz HitmaN]

I've grinded both sides of this MU and think Crow has a distinct advantage. Chucking logs in neutral makes it reeeally easy to be opened up with a J2 and clone can be forward dashed in on so it's not all that effective as a keep away tool. Up vines (startup of 14) are the only threat against jump ins because his wall bounce armor is so ridiculously slow. If you whiff up vines, you're getting punished for a lot more than what you would get from them. Swampy's F2 can compete with his range, but can be easily armored unlike Crow's F1/F2. It's fair to say that the meta of MB B3 from Crow will set the tone for the match as it shuts down most if not all of his offensive options.

Defensively, Swamp Thing suffers badly. His D2 is serviceable against a close range J3, but beyond that, he's still going to suffer from aerial threats which is where Crow likes to be. Answers like MB B3 and instant J1 just aren't on the table. He also doesn't build substantial meter in neutral so he's going to have to make a lot of reads on plus frames and D1 mixes. If he does guess right, he has to commit to an instant J3 or his slow jump arc will actually have him coming down minus from an instant J1. The best tool he has in the MU is his garden, but the armor from garden doesn't start up instantaneously, so it isn't an option against frame advantage the way Bane's is. If the ST player can't consistently whiff punish a whiffed F1, neutral belongs to Crow.

Basically, some of ST's best options do nothing but open him up in this MU. Swamp Thing's options come together against an opponent that is walking back and that's just not the case here.

You definitely give good points. You might be right that it's an advantage for crow, but I believe it to be very slight. I do however think Swamp has answers for some of Crow's shenanigans:

Swamp's S1 is fairly reliable against Crow's j3, especially from range. Also, if you read a j2 from a distance, throw out a clone. It's a great anti-air against opponents jumping in from range. You can also follow up with a f2 combo.

Swamp also can whiff punish Crow's wakeup better than anyone. Bait a wakeup, shimmy, and punish with f2 into full combo. If crow doesn't wake up, he will have to deal with your pressure. Even if he delays, he will have to deal with a f233, f2 log, or f23 log mixup. Swamp can really run with his pressure when crow is knocked down.

If you can make Crow question when to jump, Swamp is doing just fine. I think Swamp's neutral is slightly better. If Swamp can't stop Crow's jumping and can't keep him out, then obviously Crow wrecks him. I think Swamp is best when he himself is walking backward with his decent walkspeed, punishing any mistakes in spacing with his great range. This is what he will be doing against Crow

 

[foxof42]

You definitely give good points. You might be right that it's an advantage for crow, but I believe it to be very slight. I do however think Swamp has answers for some of Crow's shenanigans:

Swamp's S1 is fairly reliable against Crow's j3, especially from range. Also, if you read a j2 from a distance, throw out a clone. It's a great anti-air against opponents jumping in from range. You can also follow up with a f2 combo.

Swamp also can whiff punish Crow's wakeup better than anyone. Bait a wakeup, shimmy, and punish with f2 into full combo. If crow doesn't wake up, he will have to deal with your pressure. Even if he delays, he will have to deal with a f233, f2 log, or f23 log mixup. Swamp can really run with his pressure when crow is knocked down.

If you can make Crow question when to jump, Swamp is doing just fine. I think Swamp's neutral is slightly better. If Swamp can't stop Crow's jumping and can't keep him out, then obviously Crow wrecks him. I think Swamp is best when he himself is walking backward with his decent walkspeed, punishing any mistakes in spacing with his great range. This is what he will be doing against Crow

Good points yourself, my guy! The only thing I would disagree about is his Oki game. While he can whiff punish his wakeup incredibly easily, this opens Crow up for a MB B3 or a jump in. I love me some Swampy but he has a tough time breaking armor. :< Meaty vines possibly the answer?

 

[GJX7]

What does everyone think about the atom match-up? So far all I've really found in the short sets I've had is...

Atoms sweep goes under pretty much everything (even D1), I think the best answers for players trying to abuse sweep is MB B3, B12, or out spacing him with your own sweep

After MB fear wave Atom has a few options:
He can sweep under most buttons even when you're plus 6, but D1 will beat it out.
Atoms raw Trait activation will go under EVERYTHING apart from B1, D2, 3, B3 and D3.
Fear wave straight into command grab if a very good and consistent option

 

[Blewdew]

What does everyone think about the atom match-up? So far all I've really found in the short sets I've had is...

Atoms sweep goes under pretty much everything (even D1), I think the best answers for players trying to abuse sweep is MB B3, B12, or out spacing him with your own sweep

After MB fear wave Atom has a few options:
He can sweep under most buttons even when you're plus 6, but D1 will beat it out.
Atoms raw Trait activation will go under EVERYTHING apart from B1, D2, 3, B3 and D3.
Fear wave straight into command grab if a very good and consistent option

- atom's trait low profiles f2 easily
-atom's Sweep is dumb
-atom's crouching hitbox Makes it hard to hit him with j3 without getting anti aired
- When you have little life left good fucking luck getting through his Green science without dying, teleport is so obvious at this point it's pretty much No Option

Only played a few good ones yet but this is what I've experienced. Definitely Needs some Time to get used to this mu, atom is such a weird character

 

[GJX7]

- atom's trait low profiles f2 easily
-atom's Sweep is dumb
-atom's crouching hitbox Makes it hard to hit him with j3 without getting anti aired
- When you have little life left good fucking luck getting through his Green science without dying, teleport is so obvious at this point it's pretty much No Option

Only played a few good ones yet but this is what I've experienced. Definitely Needs some Time to get used to this mu, atom is such a weird character

It seems like you have to keep good spacing and his zoning isn't that good, when he get trait sweep, D2 and mb B3 seem like good option

 

[Blewdew]

How is manta 5-5 or Even 6-4? Rocket completly shuts His option to jump in down, you can only crouch walk forward to get in but when your close enough manta can do f213. F133 gets also stuffed by rockets so I don't see how he's not in a disadvantage.

 

[foxof42]

How is manta 5-5 or Even 6-4? Rocket completly shuts His option to jump in down, you can only crouch walk forward to get in but when your close enough manta can do f213. F133 gets also stuffed by rockets so I don't see how he's not in a disadvantage.

It's because the range that he thrives in (Manta's F2 range) doesn't mean as much. If he attempts to control space with rockets and then come in with a F2, he'll be beat very easily with Crow's own F2 which has better startup, much better active frames, and even better recovery. If you're letting him get away with F2 on you, you aren't playing the MU. Manta has to play very lame in the MU to get things going.

For that matter, if you see him throwing out rockets thinking that there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, F3 will force him to rethink his strategy. Yes it can be baited, but most Manta players will have to eat a combo first to learn that. Once they do, you're free to use more aggressive strategies.

Defensively, D2 after a F213 midscreen will beat D1, B1, neutral jump, and a jump in. If they're content to backdash, the best option is to let them, resume neutral, and be more prepared for their next F2. However, this is also a good opportunity for a jailing J2, so there's that available if you have the read. In the corner, respect their D1 after F213 and be ready with a F2 if they don't MB the rays. Finally, if they like to use max range J3s, your own range on MB B3 is an extremely consistent option. It should go without saying that D2 shuts down the float pressures shenanigans pretty easily. And yeah, all these options can be baited, but you should at least be playing at this first layer of meta.

As with almost every single MU, you shouldn't be whiffing F1(3) unless they're shown they are incapable of dealing with it and you shouldn't be jumping like a maniac. Respect his options in neutral and stuff his &*$#@#ing wakeup.

It's not a bad MU just because you can't yolo a J2 or a F1. Manta has to be just as careful on his approach.

 

[Blewdew]

It's because the range that he thrives in (Manta's F2 range) doesn't mean as much. If he attempts to control space with rockets and then come in with a F2, he'll be beat very easily with Crow's own F2 which has better startup, much better active frames, and even better recovery. If you're letting him get away with F2 on you, you aren't playing the MU. Manta has to play very lame in the MU to get things going.

For that matter, if you see him throwing out rockets thinking that there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, F3 will force him to rethink his strategy. Yes it can be baited, but most Manta players will have to eat a combo first to learn that. Once they do, you're free to use more aggressive strategies.

Defensively, D2 after a F213 midscreen will beat D1, B1, neutral jump, and a jump in. If they're content to backdash, the best option is to let them, resume neutral, and be more prepared for their next F2. However, this is also a good opportunity for a jailing J2, so there's that available if you have the read. In the corner, respect their D1 after F213 and be ready with a F2 if they don't MB the rays. Finally, if they like to use max range J3s, your own range on MB B3 is an extremely consistent option. It should go without saying that D2 shuts down the float pressures shenanigans pretty easily. And yeah, all these options can be baited, but you should at least be playing at this first layer of meta.

As with almost every single MU, you shouldn't be whiffing F1(3) unless they're shown they are incapable of dealing with it and you shouldn't be jumping like a maniac. Respect his options in neutral and stuff his &*$#@#ing wakeup.

It's not a bad MU just because you can't yolo a J2 or a F1. Manta has to be just as careful on his approach.

Good advice, thank you. I Main both but haven't explored This mu that much. Though slowly approaching and then doing f2 hasn't been really successful for me, the only times I win where when I hit a lucky shot and then bully him on knockdown. I just don't think this mu can be in sc's favor when manta can lame you out this much.

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

I've completely changed my mind, after patch scarecrow inordinately beats harley. I now agree with @MidTierHarley While before it was even, there was a range advantage for harley and an upclose advantage for scarecrow, since scarecrows buffs, he suffer no such disadvantage at range, and can infact take advantage of harley's zoning on top of his up close strengths. She now most certainly loses atleast 4-6

 

[foxof42]

...the only times I win where when I hit a lucky shot and then bully him on knockdown.

That's like my entire strategy with Crow since day 1 lmaoooo... XD But yeah, he can play it very lame. Unlike some other MUs though he isn't going to be aggressively chipping you to death fullscreen, so at least there's that. I think it's 5/5.

I'm also learning Manta, so if you wanna HMU sometime we can play both sides of the MU and learn some more options for both. PSN is foxof42. Happy holidays!

 

[Blewdew]

That's like my entire strategy with Crow since day 1 lmaoooo... XD But yeah, he can play it very lame. Unlike some other MUs though he isn't going to be aggressively chipping you to death fullscreen, so at least there's that. I think it's 5/5.

I'm also learning Manta, so if you wanna HMU sometime we can play both sides of the MU and learn some more options for both. PSN is foxof42. Happy holidays!

Sure, I'll add you when I'm home. My manta isn't that Amazing tho