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Red Hood Proposed Changes

Crusty

Retired ATM
Even with all the nerfs this character has received, Red Hood is still a strong character in this game. That being said, I feel that considering all the reasonable (for the most part anyway) nerfs he's received, asking for the following wouldn't break him in any particular way. These are just inconsistencies I've had to deal with over playing the character for months and I know in the past I made a thread just like this one. The problem with that thread was I was trying to gear the character to more my liking because I wasn't fond of his design. Now with this thread, I hope for some redemption (lol no idgaf at this point).

Important/Worthy of Note Changes

- D1. Change the hitbox and animation of his d1. His d1 is good, well on a frame-data level at least. however, it's terrible hitbox, susceptibility to low-profiling, and asinine animation coupled with his already cripplingly bad defense as is make this d1 one of the worst in the game in terms of functionality against certain characters. Considering the aforementioned, I'm really not asking for much here. Though if I were to ask what I want on a personal level, just make his d1 a knife slash/poke, keep the range the exact same, and give it a more downward/horizontal hitbox but if not, just give him a d1 that is usable against everybody. Read more about this HERE . His d1 doesn't even hit Atom out of his trait either on top of all of that.

- MB Trait Grab. Revert an earlier nerf that involved his restand (which is 4332 grab mb). This move used to be +39 on hit (it’s now +20). On paper, it shouldn’t be that bad, right? Not really, His restand in its current state leaves him +20 at sweep distance, meaning anything that is guaranteed is simply not worth the bar I spent using it. If he tries to shimmy or walk forward, the opponent can escape the followup, leading to a huge momentum swing, waste of resources and missing out on damage that is actually guaranteed. Any block damage he does off of it is overshadowed by the last hit of the trait grab should you choose not to meterburn it.

Originally, this move was nerfed after Evo due to unblockable interactables. However, considering NRS went out of their way to remove such things later, this nerf is now just redundant and unnecessary. So I think the fair thing to do here is either revert it to the old hit advantage (+39) but hard-code the move such that Red Hood can’t throw a mine after doing it, removing the highly undesirable HTB shenanigans it had but giving the other benefits of the restand back, or allow him to choose the direction he throws you off his trait grab because other than a side-switcher, it does nothing but prevent wakeups which is counter-intuitive since RH is designed to blow them up (pun intended). It would make sense if it at least comboed in its current state but it doesn’t even do that considering other characters have more or less similar restands but better since they combo.

This move is easily his second most useless tool and for a lot of reasons you'll find HERE

- Trait MB. Remove the gap that exists between the last two hits of his 4332 mb. On paper, this is just like any other move/string with a gap. However, let’s examine RH’s trait frames. His 4 3,3,2 frames on block are -10,-8, and -13 respectively. Combine it with the fact that two of his enders/mixups are full combo punishable by everyone in the game and the third one being punishable by two-thirds of the cast (and more in the corner). Oh, and add that all of these mixups are fuzzyable and even if I hit you the risk/reward is against me off the mixups. Finally, EVERY normal and string (aside from 1,1) cancelled into trait on block has a gap. So not only are they fuzzyable with skewed risk/reward but also avoidable if read. So I’m essentially committing to unsafe mixups, or that would be the case if I didn’t have the option to meterburn it. The meterburn leaves him safe (at -1), hits three times but has a gap between the final two hits. This gap is big enough to be backdashed and supered. So not only do I lose any momentum by being -1, all of a sudden it’s not an appealing option anymore if the opponent has full bar (and add in the fact that the mixups are punishable like I said above). The MB doesn’t launch and it’s not even plus for that matter, yet there is a gap. A gap where moves akin to it (aka Trident Rush, Manta Rays etc) don’t have. His trait frames are atrocious as is and this just really holds momentum back for him. A made a guide on who can punish what HERE


Luxury/QOL Changes
-Useless Air Grab - I was debating on whether to put this here but seeing as he really doesn't need this but it would make give a tool some utility, I figure this should go here. Give his air grab (yes he has an air grab) a purpose. Ivy players cry to death on how useless Bed of Thorns are, to them I present them this masterpiece of a move because this should honestly be in a museum for the sheer uselessness it presents to RH. I literally forgot this move even existed prior to making this thread and people always get astounded when I even bring it up. Red Hood's air grab is the pinnacle of uselessness in this game. Aside from being a combo ender, which is still not an optimal btw, this move doesn't do anything to supplement his playstyle or even compliment it. It's just there, but you know what they say. Why have practicality when you can have gimmicks? LOL but seriously this move is trash and you shouldn't be using it. It doesn't make a difference to me one way or the other with what happens to it, but I could bet you a stack that no other character has this useless of a move.

@hatyr @Neeko @Error @Boss Savage
 

AkioOf100

I play Raph
I like red hood I think he deserves some more respect. Idk what’s up with all the up play on this character either.
 

Icefyre

FIDE 2102
I'll be honest, I forgot he has an air grab. I'm not sure I've ever actually used it outside of the lab when he was released.

I agree with the d1 change, simply because we just want it to work as intended.

I agree that something needs to be done about his mb trait grab. This and his air grab are wasted potential.

I don't know exactly how I feel about the gap in the 4332mb though. I complained about that gap really early on and nobody seemed to care, so I think I just stopped caring about it myself. It's another move I don't waste the meter on, but even if they removed the gap, I don't know that I'd be using it much anyway. If I'm going that far into the trait string, I probably want the mix anyway :p

I don't think it's unfair to request that strings have a use to them, regardless of how good the character is or isn't.
 

Undergroundepict

I am like the blue rose
I think that these proposed changes are perfectly reasonable. You might as well put them all into the quality of life category.

A change to the functionality of d1 is essential, IMO. D1's should not be low profilable and should always function as mids. I don't care how OP a character is or whether or not it would break them, moves not functioning as intended should never be factored into discussions of balance. They should simply be fixed.

I agree the Red Hood is upplayed. My best guess as to why this is would be that the nerfs he recieved were fairly subtle (chip damage and meterbuild nerfs), and people haven't played the MU enough since the patch to catch on to how much the quantitative changes actually effect him. Even the Bane-Red Hood MU is manageable now.

I still think he is likely top 10 when all is said and done, but being good shouldn't preclude a character from quality of life buffs and fixes.
 
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Crusty

Retired ATM
I think that these proposed changes are perfectly reasonable. You might as well put them all into the quality of life category.

A change to the functionality of d1 is essential, IMO. D1's should not be low profilable and should always function as mids. I don't care how OP a character is or whether or not it would break them, moves not functioning as intended should never be factored into discussions of balance. They should simply be fixed.

I agree the Red Hood is upplayed. My best guess as to why this is would be that the nerfs he recieved were fairly subtle (chip damage and meterbuild nerfs), and people haven't played the MU enough since the patch to catch on to how much the quantitative changes actually effect him. Even the Bane-Red Hood MU is manageable now.

I still think he is likely top 10 when all is said and done, but being good shouldn't preclude a character from quality of life buffs and fixes.
His d1 change is way too important be be considered qol.

Both the restand and the gap removal fall there too because the restand was that plus originally anyway an the gap in his trait removal change comes from the fact that it being there literally has no grounds of common sense.

His air grab change is a luxury change because it would turn a move from complete wasted slot to utility. It currently has none.
 

Undergroundepict

I am like the blue rose
His d1 change is way too important be be considered qol.

Both the restand and the gap removal fall there too because the restand was that plus originally anyway an the gap in his trait removal change comes from the fact that it being there literally has no grounds of common sense.

His air grab change is a luxury change because it would turn a move from complete wasted slot to utility. It currently has none.
I suppose we may have different definition of "quality of life." I consider quality of life fixes to be primarily related to fixing things that aren't working properly, are buggy, or are inconsistent.

A reasonable change to his air grab might be giving it some extra frames on hit and leaving Hood at a favorable range, allowing Hood players to use it as a combo ender that would sacrifice damage for better oki.
 

Crusty

Retired ATM
Bumping this thread:

For people who want a tldr version: all I asked for was.

What he needs and what is fair given the circumstance:
1) A d1 that doesn't get low profiled so ridiculously easy. The most important change, everything else that follows I literally wouldn't care for.
2) A more useful restand as it is pretty bad in its current state, outside the corner and even then its not that good.
3) The gap in his mb trait removed, people literally stopped using this since it discovered that for the most part.
4) A purposeful air grab or just delete the move entirely.

Not only did NRS not fix just nerf Red Hood unfairly after the February patch, but his legendary multiverse gear was a complete disappointment (it was practically a screw you from them saying we won't fix your useless moves, so we are gonna ask you to use them and guess what; what you get is not even worth the tradeoff anyway.)

These are problems me and few other players have had for months and its annoying when NRS created post-patch firestorm and said he was fine and did not look into things regarding annoying hitboxes/hurtboxes in this game. There are moments when I where I lose simply not because I was outplayed, but because my d1 sucks THAT bad.

@Neeko @hatyr @Icefyre @DarksydeDash
 
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