General/Other Re designing sub zero

Discussion in 'Sub-Zero' started by Smarrgasm, Oct 26, 2011.

  1. Bidu

    Bidu the CHILL of DESPAIR

    Doesn't matter how patience you are, a good Kitana player (aka Mr. Mileena) is just NOT going for you, unless that you're at good advantage, what I doubt is going to happen since all they do is air fan from start to end of the match. Who told you that Kitana can't throw fans across the screen all day is wrong. She can and she will.
  2. Soryo

    Soryo Ice is my body, and glass is my heart.

    I wasn't sure where to post this so I chose here. I'm hearing all this talk about a more "aggressive" Sub-Zero. I have been hearing that a lot lately. What I want to know his how to play this "aggressive" Sub-Zero, especially against, Kung Lao, Johnny Cage, Ermac, and Raiden. I mean I watched Tom Brady's vid on this "aggressive" Sub and he out right stated that an aggressive Sub-Zero is nothing but a parlor trick, and say what you want about the man, but he does know his shit. So please some one, teach me the ways of "aggressive" Sub-Zero.

    That and can someone please link me to a vid of Death play Sub? Much oblige.
  3. charlieonline

    charlieonline Search "CaseyJones" for active profile.

    Spam d4 and mix 21. Mix 21 with 212 to make them keep blocking after you stop a 21 so they are afraid of a full 212 combo.

    What Tom was saying is, how can you play this when for instance Raiden can just teleport in between your strings. Tom did a video and Raiden blows SZ up big time. There are ways Raiden can superman through a clone and tele through strings so Sub can only d4 or stop at 21
    Bidu likes this.
  4. Soryo

    Soryo Ice is my body, and glass is my heart.

    Yea I know that fist hand. So what does Sub do against these characters, besides die...
  5. charlieonline

    charlieonline Search "CaseyJones" for active profile.

    That's what Tom has been telling us since he made the video, half a year ago. You need to play a COMPLETE Sub to overcome the flaws of the character design.

    This means knowing when to go offense, defense, how to play footsies, how to utilize the ice blast etc. Nobody wants to listen to him and now they are starting to run into problems and the recent solution is what you called "the agressive sub".
  6. Soryo

    Soryo Ice is my body, and glass is my heart.

    I wounder what a complete sub-zero looks like. Because he has so many problems I would even know where to begin. On top of that the only guy that does know what a complete Sub should be is punishing all us Sub players cause people fucking suck.
  7. GGA soonk

    GGA soonk ĜĞÅ §ººñ|<®©™
    Premium Supporter

    Didn't that one guy stop playing Sub for a reason?
  8. charlieonline

    charlieonline Search "CaseyJones" for active profile.

    Again, you aren't listening to Tom. He already put information out there, it's in his videos.

    All he is saying these days is that people don't know what to do because nobody wanted to showcase his tournament matches, analyze them and discuss real Sub game. He wins some, looses others, but nobody took the time to link the videos or anything and Tom's Sub is the only high level player against other characters at the highest level of play.

    I've seen his tournament matches and tournament vids. While he may loose in a tournament, it's not always like that. I've seen shaky cam MM of Tom vs high level players and he does kick their ass too, it's just not public so people think Tom goes to tournaments and gets blown up.

    Anyway, I've been reading all of Tom's work and watched his tournament matches as well as the MM ones you find lost somewhere on youtube.

    Tom has played RIU's Sonya and CDJr's Jax, did you know that? Well, those were not public games and if I had the link I'd show you but the next time you will see a top Sub fight a top Sonya or Jax is very very low my friend.

    In a nut shell, the community ignored Tom because he did not win a major. They ignored the fact that his experience not only comes from tournament play, but the games he plays with those tournament players BEHIND THE SCENES. The haters bitched him out for *HALF A YEAR*. Tom has now moved on, surprised?
  9. Soryo

    Soryo Ice is my body, and glass is my heart.

    I am listening to him, and you are right. I never once cared about weather or not Tom won major tournaments. He was and is just a great Sub-Zero player. I'm trying to find more of his videos on youtube so I can watch and learn more, but I seen a lot of them already, and that critical ones are for some reason hard to find. I'm not surprised that he moved to another character or stopped playing Sub. No one listened to him and now they are regretting it cause now they need the information and now its not there. But Charlie if you know where I can find more of his vids please, send me some links.
  10. salvificblood

    salvificblood Worst Sub-Zero Ever
    Premium Supporter

    I haven't got a clue how you fight Mileena with Sub-Zero, lol.

    As for Kitana, you're thinking about thinks far too literally and rigidly. My gameplan with Sub-Zero is always based on some level of fluidity. Here's the thing, when I say be patient and crouch fans, I don't mean just sit at the other side of the screen and never move. Your strategy should be to duck as many fans as possible and start the footsies game with her once you get to the very limit of her d1 range. If she continually jumps at me, I will not only start 22'ing her, I will start ex freezing her because while I may eat the odd fan, the Kitana player's timing and spacing has to be perfect to get close enough to make me attempt an AA and then throw a fan just out of its range. I will eat the odd fan for a successful 22, freeze and not even because of even or favourable damage over the course of a match but because it stops her getting free jumpins. No point standing there in block and letting her jump on you.

    I used to go back and forth with a very good Kenshi (he used to play Jax which we also went back and forth in), actually, and my strategy for dealing with Kenshi was pretty wreckless. I don't like playing a wreckless style but Kenshi really demands the most (soap bar in my mouth) of guesses on your part or you'll just lose slowly to his zoning. It is a completely different matchup to Kitana. In fact, I couldn't think of two matchups that are more different. My experience is that kenshi will win if the game is played from midscreen. Your only chance is to corner him. Getting him to the corner is incredibly difficult as well, but off slide knockdowns, you can cross Kenshi up and off a successful crossover, 22, freeze, crossover again and finish the combo point towards the corner you're working on pushing him towards. You're going to have to jump and slide to get in on him when he has you fullscreen, which is where the matchup can start to look really ridiculous from your perspective. Believe it or not, ex freeze is a really great baiting tool from around half screen distance because he'll either instinctually attempt to jump the regular iceball or reflect, and the ex will catch both. Block high, too, especially after fullscreen knockdowns because he will trap you with the overhead otherwise. This is one of those matchups Sub loses but he really can get in with enough matchup experience and enough luck, lol. Kenshi relies on luck trying to keep you out this way, too, however.
  11. charlieonline

    charlieonline Search "CaseyJones" for active profile.

    It's too bad Sub has no leader today because I actually had ALL of Tom's tournaments on my computer. I am able to rip videos directly from streams and I had saved them all... ALL including the MM sets, I had those too.

    It's a damn shame I deleted them because I had everything man.


    I also had Tom vs POTH Mileena.

    From what I remember, Mileena's footsies are too strong. He can't get in and do anything besides d4 and Mileena can check him with d4 or d4 sai or air sai to lock him down. You can't rush in and d4 because a roll my instantly come out. You can't jump because iasai into combo so you play how Tom played... you get to right outside her d4 and do whatever he was gonna do but we are lacking that info because Tom is gone =( ... actually I think Tom was hoping POTH would whiff a d4 and then Tom would come in because if you remember the match there was a big staring contest.. thing is, Pig isn't no fool and just sat outside of his d4 range as well, knowing Tom couldn't move to get in.

    I had that video too.

    Actually, if you guys care to track down the archived streams of Tom playing during these tournaments I can rip it straight off of and cut the fight out and upload it.
  12. Bidu

    Bidu the CHILL of DESPAIR

    Where I can find this match, Charlie?
  13. NRF CharlieMurphy

    NRF CharlieMurphy Kindergarten Meta

    Mileena blows up Sub.... its (soap bar in my mouth). Throwing Ice Ball to check her is futile.... and you can't really punish her exTelekick at all. She gets 4% chip and you punish for like... 12% if you're lucky. You have to be seriously on point to beat her, not blocking any sais after any tele kicks and never missing a punish. I hate playing that character with anyone because she can do anything she wants really. I picked up smoke to deal with her and Kitana specifically.

    Against Kenshi, when or if I do get in on him... I do the old knockdown stuff. 2,1,2 slide ... the knockdown is easier to punish him and make him predictable. His hit box is high... so you can 2,1 2,1 and HC into the combo. I agree with Sal's approach. You really do have to take ridiculous gambles to even touch Kenshi, and even then, if he has meter, he'll probably just exRising Karma if you Jump in ... or exSpririt charge if you get too close. Basically... whoever makes the best guesses will blow the other up. Problem is that Kenshi's guesses are mostly safe, and Sub's are mostly 30% combo to full screen punishable. So much FUN!!! I think smoke gives Kenshi some problems here too. (noticing a trend?)
  14. charlieonline

    charlieonline Search "CaseyJones" for active profile.

    I'm working on it I had a friend who I gave the videos to and he still has them. Right now as we speak my system is converting all the videos into youtube 10 minute segments and I'll be uploading _everything_. I'll keep you posted.
    Seapeople likes this.
  15. Bidu

    Bidu the CHILL of DESPAIR

    Yeah it's (soap bar in my mouth) how Mileena blows Sub. He just has to play really, really, really (soap bar in my mouth) to win. Doing D4 over and over.
  16. salvificblood

    salvificblood Worst Sub-Zero Ever
    Premium Supporter

    I now agree that Mileena is a terrible matchup. I actually think this is his worst matchup after Kung Lao.

    Worst matchups:

    Kung Lao: 2-8
    Mileena: 3-7
    Raiden: 3.5-6.5

  17. Seapeople

    Seapeople This one's for you

    ^I completely agree. Mileena wins the award for most annoying character in the game. And her pressure is surprisingly good.

    But I have to admit, I've realized that there's only 1 matchup in the whole game that I know inside & out (Sub vs Sub). I'm prepared for absolutely everything against Sub, but there's always new things to learn for dealing with the rest of the cast.
  18. Bidu

    Bidu the CHILL of DESPAIR

    Really? No Kitana and Kabal there?
  19. Seapeople

    Seapeople This one's for you

    Those definitely aren't easy, but they at least feel winnable (to me).
  20. OnizukaPM

    OnizukaPM Noob

    are his worst matchups

    didnt play good raiden yet
  21. Enenra

    Enenra Go to hell.

    l Enenra l
    Is that online Raiden? I always felt pretty even about Raiden except during excessive lag. Offline, it's a pretty fair fight imo.
  22. OnizukaPM

    OnizukaPM Noob

    no it isnt
    Bidu likes this.
  23. AYSAMO

    AYSAMO Noob

    Kabal feels winnable, but sub vs kitana is just stupid.
    Bidu likes this.
  24. salvificblood

    salvificblood Worst Sub-Zero Ever
    Premium Supporter

    Sub-Zero, Kitana is definitely a hard matchup but it's not as bad as Mileena or Raiden, imo. You have options against kabal and if you make the right reads, you can punish Kabal very heavily, especially off his wakeup. The woprst matchups for Sub-Zero are against the low hitbox characters and those who he can't keep in front of him at all times. Kabal is not one of those.
    Bidu and Sub_Crash4 like this.
  25. iLasser

    iLasser Noob

    What if after one connected ice blast the second one you shot after they were froze did 8% like the rest of the cast instead of 5% like it is now? It would be guaranteed damage kind of like a mini quan chi rune ! My thought is that it would help keep a life lead when zoning ? Thoughts ?

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