Raiden required adjustments thread.

[MadPropz101]

So I've been playing Raiden for a while now and my impression is that he is a solid character that is actually kinda underrated. He controls a lot of space with his F4 which makes him quite unique because he can punish moves with a lot of pushback easily with juicy damage. Ending combos in B2 sets up a mind game where people won't want to block low because they can take over 50% damage, which opens up his b3, 1 string. His throw game is also strong because of his kb.
However there are some things about his design that keep him from truly shining. I assume some people will say the regular stuff like "it's too early" or "not everyone needs to be top tier" and I understand that but I also think that every character in this game should be adjusted in a way that would make them the best version of themselves without feeling too powerful, and I'm sure we can all agree that there are a lot of characters on the roster have some strange design issues without even mentioning the no kustom variation aspect.

b1, 2 : -7 block advantage. Less pushback on hit so that he can do his bnb's on females, the first hit of Storm Cell (db2) whiffs when linked from b1, 2 so it doesn't pull them in like it should, or just adjust Storm Cell instead. Or NRS should just get a grip and normalize the female hurtboxes .
b1 and f3 : -3 block advantage.
1 : +2 block advantage.
up, down (sparkport) : should be a base move.
Summon Lightning (db2) : should be a base move, change the input so it does not conflict with Storm Cell. This move is a great antiair and looks amazing so it's a shame not to have it used more.

Thunder Wave is by far his best variation and there is no point in ever using Raijin. Electric Current (db4) is completely useless, it pops up the opponent but does not allow for any follow ups so he get's a lot less damage overall. Make Raiden recover faster and/or increase the pop up of Electric Current (db4) to allow combos. He does get a 4f punish with Discharge but no teleport or combos really hurts him.

Those were the changes that I think should happen, now for some wishful thinking:

His projectiles kinda suck. BF1 (Lightning Bolt) startup is slow as hell and hits high. DF2 (Lightning Strike) has a lot of deadzones and is very punishable even from midscreen.
In my opinion DF2 should track instead of having to choose it's distance, or make it amplifiable on block/whiff, it just feels clunky as hell atm. Either that or replace his projectiles with other moves since he doesn't exactly need them and the design is flawed in it's current state...

3, 2, 1 - Make it more than +1 since the gap is bigger than the Titanic.

d1 + 13 on hit (mashers ).

Increase overall bnb dmg by 2-3%.

 

[kabelfritz]

tbh i dont agree with anything, except that sparkport should be a base move again - in the next game! and maybe b12 -6/7

storm cell is fine, just "normalize" some top tiers. raijin might need some help though.

 

[MadPropz101]

tbh i dont agree with anything, except that sparkport should be a base move again - in the next game! and maybe b12 -6/7

storm cell is fine, just "normalize" some top tiers. raijin might need some help though.

Why would you be fine with female characters taking less damage than everyone else? How is that fair?

 

[kabelfritz]

Why would you be fine with female characters taking less damage than everyone else? How is that fair?

ah sorry thats of course nonsense. as a workaround i use b12~SCAmp, late jf2, f4~bf3, that works on everyone.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Yeah I don't really get why they're so cautious with giving Raiden sparkport by default, or at the very least making it a 1-slotter. I understand what happened in MK9 but we clearly don't have to make it that good (although I feel like allowing Raiden to combo with it seems pretty reasonable, teleporting is his thing after all).
Its startup is just slow enough that he can't slip away for free while under pressure, so why does this need to take 2 slots?
I think df2 needs to be a lot less negative on block; currently the ability makes no sense at -29. The storm cell thing on females is also maddening and I'd like to know how things like this get past QA.

I have to agree on Summoned Lightning; it's such a badass move that it's a crying shame we basically don't get to have it. I understand why we have to choose between them, but I don't have to like it.

 

[Mandolore1123]

What I’d like for him is just a buff to lightning strike frames, make it safer. F3 should be safer so he can stagger better. If NRS is feeling particularly good then maybe maybe a tiny buff in combo damage. But I’ll settle for better frames on df2 and f3

 

[MadPropz101]

What I’d like for him is just a buff to lightning strike frames, make it safer. F3 should be safer so he can stagger better. If NRS is feeling particularly good then maybe maybe a tiny buff in combo damage. But I’ll settle for better frames on df2 and f3

Most important thing he needs is b12 to be safe, Raiden players just don't realize it yet cause nobody punishes properly.

 

[EarlyReflections]

Haven't got Raiden out of the lab yet,

What's up with storm cell and female hit boxes?

 

[kabelfritz]

Most important thing he needs is b12 to be safe, Raiden players just don't realize it yet cause nobody punishes properly.

that string is not a good neutral tool at all though, more a punisher and combo extender. f11, f4, f32 are my go-tos.

 

[The ice hammer]

that string is not a good neutral tool at all though, more a punisher and combo extender. f11, f4, f32 are my go-tos.

But it’s the quickest mid he can hit confirm from tho. F4 is too slow for close range and f11 will get eaten by d1 mashers and upper cuts. F3 amazing but my reactions aren’t good enough to hit confirm from it. Lol

 

[Mandolore1123]

But it’s the quickest mid he can hit confirm from tho. F4 is too slow for close range and f11 will get eaten by d1 mashers and upper cuts. F3 amazing but my reactions aren’t good enough to hit confirm from it. Lol

F3 is good to throw out because you can stagger into throw, F32, F3 into poke, etc. You can also stagger F3 into B1 since they are both 11-frame forward-advancing mids. Not that B12 is useless to throw out, but it is very important you hit confirm into storm cell or block confirm into superman cancel or far teleport to make it safe or bait buttons. You can also throw out B14 randomly if they make you whiff B1 and try to crouch 2 to D2 punish. B1 can also be staggered but it's -7 I believe so it's less effective than F3

 

[kabelfritz]

But it’s the quickest mid he can hit confirm from tho. F4 is too slow for close range and f11 will get eaten by d1 mashers and upper cuts. F3 amazing but my reactions aren’t good enough to hit confirm from it. Lol

but i think thats the point, that everything has a downside - thats what moves should be like to keep a character honest and the game fun. the likes of geras need to play that honest game too though.

 

[Auron]

b12 can be made safe with sparkport far. I agree that maybe Sparkport costs too much in variation points for how integral to survival it seems to be. I feel lightning strike should be buffed, our zoning capabilities are not that great and I hear they used to be very good in some beta or alpha, seems it got overnerfed.

The major change we need is decent Krushing Blows, no one's going to take two b2's in a row, it sets up b31 but I'd rather have a functional KB there. 121 and towards throw is all we have, max range fly amp is the most unlikely thing to happen in a match so we're basically missing two KBs. That's happening to lots of characters not in the meta, no practical krushing blows.

 

[Krankk]

I'm testing Raiden in the practice mode right now. Am I missing something here, or is his DB2 (his combo launcher special move) actually safe on block with -5? Isn't that crazy good? You can make unsafe strings safe (except the Flawless Blocked stuff), if you don't hitconfirm something and if you do hitconfirm something into the launcher, you can just amplify into a combo.

 

[kabelfritz]

I'm testing Raiden in the practice mode right now. Am I missing something here, or is his DB2 (his combo launcher special move) actually safe on block with -5? Isn't that crazy good? You can make unsafe strings safe (except the Flawless Blocked stuff), if you don't hitconfirm something and if you do hitconfirm something into the launcher, you can just amplify into a combo.

little hint: yes, you are missing a huge little something, thought that would be common knowledge by now.

Spoiler

third hit is a high

 

[Mandolore1123]

b12 can be made safe with sparkport far. I agree that Sparkport costs too much in variation points for how integral to survival it seems to be. I feel lightning strike should be buffed, our zoning capabilities are not that great and I hear they used to be very good in some beta or alpha, seems it got overnerfed.

The major change we need is decent Krushing Blows, no one's going to take two b2's in a row, it sets up b31 but I'd rather have a functional KB there. 121 and towards throw is all we have, max range fly amp is the most unlikely thing to happen in a match so we're basically missing two KBs. That's happening to lots of characters not in the meta, no practical krushing blows.

I think B2 and 121 are perfectly fine though. B2 is used more of a tool to really screw with the opponents head. Do I go for B2KB? B31? B3 stagger? Just B2? Maybe they get scared and block, sorry eat this throw. Or they try to wake up. Bait and punish. Every combo ended in B2 will open up a plethora of mind games so it's fine I feel.

As for 121, it may not look like much, but it's useful in a sense that Raiden gets a KB punish off his jab string. Since he is weak to breakaways and uses meter to get anything damaging, Raiden probably runs out of attack bar fairly quickly. 121KB is the way to get decent damage (~28%) unbreakable damage off his fastest punisher without using meter.

D2 and Throws are fairly universal, though I wish the throw KBs did less damage universally. The only other one is full screen amplified superman, which is meh but hey you can always YOLO, it's worked for me a few times.

 

[buyacushun]

b1, 2 : -7 block advantage.

Why do this when B1 is -7, and F3 and F32 are safe? nevermind buttons like F2 and F3. Why does B12 also have to be safe on block? Also you can teleport cancel stuff basically resetting neutral. and there's always the Fly cancel mind game as well.

1 : +2 block advantage.

What's the purpose of this change as well?

up, down (sparkport) : should be a base move.

If they did that I'd say make it only one teleport instead of the 4 he has now.

Summon Lightning (db2) : should be a base move, change the input so it does not conflict with Storm Cell. This move is a great antiair and looks amazing so it's a shame not to have it used more.

This one is a layered issue to me because I haven't even liked the variation system since NRS started doing it but part of system is giving up moves for others. Want the high damage move, then pick the other Raiden.

Electric Current (db4) is completely useless, it pops up the opponent but does not allow for any follow ups so he get's a lot less damage overall.

Has a 5050 off of B1. And in the corner Raijin can use DB3 to combo off of EX DB4 and link S2. I've managed something like 410 damage with 2 bars. Don't mind the lesser damage. Take half chip, low projectile, and a 4f reversal allowing punishes that no one else can do. Although I wish DB4 could be spaced to at least be kinda safe.

His projectiles kinda suck. BF1 (Lightning Bolt) startup is slow as hell and hits high.

Wish we had a variation with Jo Push. I'd take that + plus discharge. BF1 being one of the slowest projectiles that you can't really use it against zoners and rushdown characters along with it being unsafe around midscreen I just don't get it. Maybe reduce the startup by a few frames like 23-25 but make it safe midscreen. so it's like a long poke he can use.

3, 2, 1 - Make it more than +1 since the gap is bigger than the Titanic.

Something should be done with this string. Idk why you would bother with the mind game to be +1.

d1 + 13 on hit (mashers ).

Idk what the answer is but I really want NRS to do something with their whole mashy poke meta. Shit isn't fun to participate in nor watch.

Increase overall bnb dmg by 2-3%.

I can get 318 for 1 bar off of a basic whiff punish with great corner carry.
I've seen even higher combos with 2 bars and breaking 600 with FB. I don't see the need for a damage increase especially this early.

 

[The ice hammer]

Make the last bit of storm cell a mid and call it a day.

 

[SLy]

Why would you be fine with female characters taking less damage than everyone else? How is that fair?

So to clear the air on female hitboxes. They actually work in our favor and we actually build MORE damage on female hitboxes when stormcell is involved.

B12, stormcell, late J3/4 , F4 Stormcell then end with b12 1+3.

Extra storm cell if you want to burn all the meter lol. Thank me later.

 

[Barrogh]

B12, stormcell, late J3/4 , F4 Stormcell then end with b12 1+3.

What is 1 meter version of this? Do you b121+3 after f4, or just end with cancelling f4 into fly?

 

[DDutchguy]

So to clear the air on female hitboxes. They actually work in our favor and we actually build MORE damage on female hitboxes when stormcell is involved.

B12, stormcell, late J3/4 , F4 Stormcell then end with b12 1+3.

Extra storm cell if you want to burn all the meter lol. Thank me later.

I assume the late J3 into F4 is not possible on male hitboxes?

 

[SLy]

I assume the late J3 into F4 is not possible on male hitboxes?

Its possible but requires a tight microdash before the late j3. Havent tested it on every male hitbox but i’ll bet it works on all of them.

 

[DDutchguy]

Its possible but requires a tight microdash before the late j3. Havent tested it on every male hitbox but i’ll bet it works on all of them.

In that case, won't your B12~Storm Cell Amp, late J3/4 , F4~Storm Cell Amp, B121+3 combo be possible on male characters as well?

 

[kabelfritz]

gonna leave this here, because its really a required adjustment:

summon lightning full screen does NOT work properly (yeah i said that). instead of being sucked into your hand, the opponent ends up lying before you and gets up really quick while not eating the full damage. he might even be +, didnt test that.

and also, why did raidens autocorrect on amp projectile get removed while cassie still has it on air shot?

 

[DDutchguy]

summon lightning full screen does NOT work properly (yeah i said that). instead of being sucked into your hand, the opponent ends up lying before you and gets up really quick while not eating the full damage

Pretty sure that's intentional. The reason for it I'm not sure, could be to stop it from being a fullscreen anti-air against anything.