Match-Up Discussion - Raiden Raiden Match-ups Thread

[Raidenwins]

I don't see a thread about match-ups versus various characters so I thought I'd create one, partly for the selfish purpose of getting help with some tough match ups (like Takeda, for me anyway).

Post your hard earned knowledge about how to fight against any and all characters here, such as character/variation specific strategies, weaknesses/strengths, etc. I'll start with whatever little knowledge I've gathered against Takeda, as he is giving me a lot of trouble:

Takeda

One thing I've learned is, when he is away from you, i.e. half screen or further, block Low. That's because his Shurikens and his EX Teleport Punch both hit Low and can be really annoying. Also, I don't know the exact commands for them, but he's got those 2 and 3-hit kick strings that are hard to punish on block. I believe the one that's 2 hits is punishable by 1, 1 and F1, 2, B2, not sure about the 3 hits one though. I played a really good Takeda (Shirai Ryu) last night and he kept canceling it into a NJP and it didn't seem like 1, 1 could punish it. Maybe F1, 2, B2 can?

I was using the Thunder God variation, but I am thinking now Master of Storms might be a better match against him, because of his reliance on teleports, i.e. setting up a trap behind you might be a good way to counter that.

That's all I got right now. Any tips against Takeda?

(Tips by mrtom)

--Block high vs Takeda since he's got so many overheads, including his X-ray.
--You can block the EX-teleport on reaction since it's only the second hit that hits low but his overheads can be harder to block on reaction.
--Don't throw fireballs on his wake-up or when he's not performing an action because he can teleport on reaction.

Scorpion

(Tip by KowtowRobinson)

--Practice on punishing his teleports and force the Scorpion player to change his game. Because if they can just keep doing teleports risk free, you're gonna be in trouble.

 

[ZDetination1]

If someone could do a Scorpion match-up I'd love it. He gives me so much trouble it feels like all his specials can lead into a big damage combo and I can't seem to punish his teleport.

 

[mrtom]

I don't see a thread about match-ups versus various characters so I thought I'd create one, partly for the selfish purpose of getting help with some tough match ups (like Takeda, for me anyway).

Post your hard earned knowledge about how to fight against any and all characters here, such as character/variation specific strategies, weaknesses/strengths, etc. I'll start with whatever little knowledge I've gathered against Takeda, as he is giving me a lot of trouble:

Takeda

One thing I've learned is, when he is away from you, i.e. half screen or further, block Low. That's because his Shurikens and his EX Teleport Punch both hit Low and can be really annoying. Also, I don't know the exact commands for them, but he's got those 2 and 3-hit kick strings that are hard to punish on block. I believe the one that's 2 hits is punishable by 1, 1 and F1, 2, B2, not sure about the 3 hits one though. I played a really good Takeda (Shirai Ryu) last night and he kept canceling it into a NJP and it didn't seem like 1, 1 could punish it. Maybe F1, 2, B2 can?

I was using the Thunder God variation, but I am thinking now Master of Storms might be a better match against him, because of his reliance on teleports, i.e. setting up a trap behind you might be a good way to counter that.

That's all I got right now. Any tips against Takeda?

I always block high vs Takeda since he's got so many overheads, including his x-rest. You can block the ex teleport on reaction since it's only the second hit that hits low but his overheads can be harder to block on reaction, for me at least. Don't throw fireballs on his wakeup or when he's not performing an action because he can teleport on reaction. I usually don't have problems with him anymore but I can't think of what I'm doing offhand. I'll post more when I play anther Takeda while it's still fresh in my head.

As for styles, TG or MoS seem like your best bet. I tend to go with TG since I can get more damage and meter. MoS is nice because the beams can really stop a lot of his attacks.

 

[Invincibeast]

If someone could do a Scorpion match-up I'd love it. He gives me so much trouble it feels like all his specials can lead into a big damage combo and I can't seem to punish his teleport.

Which variation are you using and against which variation scorpion are you having trouble?

 

[Chaosphere]

Any tips against Takeda?

I get blown up a bit and turn it around. You'll see I figure out how to punish the fake teleport into njp. It's still early but hopefully this helps.

 

[KowtowRobinson]

If someone could do a Scorpion match-up I'd love it. He gives me so much trouble it feels like all his specials can lead into a big damage combo and I can't seem to punish his teleport.

His teleport is definitely punishable (offline) and if you're not punishing that teleport (offline) then he's going to have a much easier time winning that match.

Best advice is to just grind it out in practice mode for a start, punish those teleports (offline) and force the Scorpion player to change his (offline) game up a bit. Because if they can just keep doing teleports risk free, you're gonna be in trouble.

 

[Whitefox]

Nice raiden gameplay chaos.

I've been having a blast playing him myself, the LIghtning cancels are just so fun and satisfying.

I've been getting decent success with 21 LC 214 catching some people off guard and 21 LC throw works too for some pressure and decent chip. Just don't get predictable.

At the current moment I definitely think raiden is top tier maybe even kabal tier worthy.

 

[ZDetination1]

Which variation are you using and against which variation scorpion are you having trouble?

I ise TG Raiden and Ninjutsu Scorpion

 

[ZDetination1]

His teleport is definitely punishable (offline) and if you're not punishing that teleport (offline) then he's going to have a much easier time winning that match.

Best advice is to just grind it out in practice mode for a start, punish those teleports (offline) and force the Scorpion player to change his (offline) game up a bit. Because if they can just keep doing teleports risk free, you're gonna be in trouble.

So basically playing him Online I'm screwed . I really think they need to nerf his teleport it's ridiculous players who aren't even good can give someone a hard time if they spam it

 

[VenomX-90]

I never really paid attention but was Raiden vs Rain in MK9 was 5-5? because you know electricity and water dont mix.

 

[Invincibeast]

I ise TG Raiden and Ninjutsu Scorpion

Ok, well for all Scorps you have to watch out for teleport and leg takedown. Both are very punishable on block.
Teleport - when blocked either go into f12 Shocker for a quick 6 frame full combo punish (1 meter) or f12 Electric Fly to get a quick corner carry.
Leg Takedown - when blocked hit b33 and Shocker to combo (1 meter) (hits low).

For Ninjutsu Scorp you'll have to watch for his sword strings.
F121 is -1 on block, so its safe, but you can apply your pressure afterwards, but you might get caught by a fast poke of his
212 is -4 on block, same story, poke less likely
f32b2 is -15 on block.... fuck his ass up for this, careful, it hits overhead
b42 is -7 on block, you can apply pressure

go to training mode and record yourself as scorpion doing what you have trouble with and just get used to blocking and punishing them

 

[ZDetination1]

Ok, well for all Scorps you have to watch out for teleport and leg takedown. Both are very punishable on block.
Teleport - when blocked either go into f12 Shocker for a quick 6 frame full combo punish (1 meter) or f12 Electric Fly to get a quick corner carry.
Leg Takedown - when blocked hit b33 and Shocker to combo (1 meter) (hits low).

For Ninjutsu Scorp you'll have to watch for his sword strings.
F121 is -1 on block, so its safe, but you can apply your pressure afterwards, but you might get caught by a fast poke of his
212 is -4 on block, same story, poke less likely
f32b2 is -15 on block.... fuck his ass up for this, careful, it hits overhead
b42 is -7 on block, you can apply pressure

go to training mode and record yourself as scorpion doing what you have trouble with and just get used to blocking and punishing them

Thanks this is exactly what I need

 

[Invincibeast]

Thanks this is exactly what I need

No problem!

 

[mrtom]

So basically playing him Online I'm screwed . I really think they need to nerf his teleport it's ridiculous players who aren't even good can give someone a hard time if they spam it

Against crap players spamming teleport you don't really need to do much, you know they're going to teleport so just wait for it then punish it. Make it look like you're going to attack by walking forward or pressing a quick poke then wait for the teleport.

Vs decent players, it helps to know when they like to teleport. Every player is different but I've noticed a lot of scorpions like to teleport on wakeup, when cornered, to punish projectiles, off a jump in kick and as an anti-air. I've also noticed many of them use it in their block strings and it's usually after the second attack, for example 1,2 xx teleport. On wakeup most usually do ex so watch out for the second hit. Spammers usually save their meter for x-ray so less likely they'll do the ex version.

Real good players won't be teleporting much, only in combos or as a punish unless you've shown them you're unable to punish them.

 

[Eyenar]

Hello, new to the MK-X series here but am gradually understanding most of the mechanics in game. Currently having a lot of issues with competent Grandmaster Sub-Zeroes and how to deal with ice clones. I feel like he can just bully me any way he likes if he cancels out of it or gets it out at any point of the match.

I could spend bar for electric fly or any other armored moves, but I was wondering if there was any other way to deal with this as Thunder God?

 

[Alright RyRy]

I figured I would post this here. I was trying to figure out the best way to punish GM Sub with that Ice Clone and came up with this

@Chaosphere is there more damage than this?

 

[nugava]

Raiden vs Takeda : Takeda: No dubble overhead allowed. So everytime he's throwing his double overhead (b21), you should EX df2. That beats a bunch of options... Naked b21, b212+4, b21 kunai, b21 EX Kunai, b21 EX Teleport (Or you end up blocking it or you get a "corrected" EX db2). Same with EX Fists, you'll probably end up blocking it. Hard to test. I just put the Raiden AI on EX Shocker on reversal.

And here what you can do:

 

[Eyenar]

Thanks bros, will take the fight online and apply it!

 

[Raidenwins]

Raiden vs Takeda : Takeda: No dubble overhead allowed. So everytime he's throwing his double overhead (b21), you should EX df2. That beats a bunch of options... Naked b21, b212+4, b21 kunai, b21 EX Kunai, b21 EX Teleport (Or you end up blocking it or you get a "corrected" EX db2). Same with EX Fists, you'll probably end up blocking it. Hard to test. I just put the Raiden AI on EX Shocker on reversal.

And here what you can do:

Thanks for that @nugava! I also did some experimentation against Takeda in practice mode, mainly against his Teleport and EX-Teleport. What I found is that pretty much anything faster than 14-15 frames can punish it, namely things like 1, 1, 2 or F1, 2, B2 or B3, 3. I've followed @mrtom's advice above about blocking his EX-Teleport on reaction and it seems to be working fine. I played a decent Takeda yesterday and I did better than my last two encounters with Kenshi's ninja telepathic son lol

 

[nugava]

I don't know why his EX Teleport is listed as 0 on block. It's clearly not the case... Maybe it's the first hit. You can even land a 2 after that, so it's at least minus 11.

 

[KowtowRobinson]

So basically playing ANYONE Online I'm screwed .

The online in this game is bad. Like, BAD bad. Taking it seriously is a mistake. It can help build move recognition and stuff, but you're gonna get hit with stuff you could easily block offline, and you're gonna miss easy punishes. If you're unable to separate the two, online will make you miserable.

This isn't Scorpion specific. This is Netherrealm specific. Great fighting game, terrible online play. They can say all they want that they're still gonna fix it, but they haven't proven it.

 

[ZDetination1]

The online in this game is bad. Like, BAD bad. Taking it seriously is a mistake. It can help build move recognition and stuff, but you're gonna get hit with stuff you could easily block offline, and you're gonna miss easy punishes. If you're unable to separate the two, online will make you miserable.

This isn't Scorpion specific. This is Netherrealm specific. Great fighting game, terrible online play. They can say all they want that they're still gonna fix it, but they haven't proven it.

Sigh* It's a shame to play the game at it's best I have to go to locals

 

[KowtowRobinson]

Sigh* It's a shame to play the game at it's best I have to go to locals

Well fighting games have always been that way, to some degree. They're unlike other genres in that way, there's very little that can be done to make the online experience perfect. They're also often peer to peer netcode and vary wildly, as opposed to connecting to reliable servers.

It's just part of fighting games, if you wanna play for real you gotta hit the road. Only a complete infrastructure overhaul in this country will do anything about that, although better netcode would certainly help.

 

[Helmut]

Well fighting games have always been that way, to some degree. They're unlike other genres in that way, there's very little that can be done to make the online experience perfect. They're also often peer to peer netcode and vary wildly, as opposed to connecting to reliable servers.

It's just part of fighting games, if you wanna play for real you gotta hit the road. Only a complete infrastructure overhaul in this country will do anything about that, although better netcode would certainly help.

I agree with the two posts above. Online strategy is so different from offline its like you have to learn two separate styles of play. With the current online play I find it hard to punish your opponents unsafe moves. I was playing against an ermac for a few matches last night, and I could not for the life of me punish even his basic strings after blocking. Any of my counters would just lag and he end up being able to recover and block for some reason. I would also block his teleport over and over and could not get a punish in other than a low poke. From reading all the raiden threads sounds like I need to practice to counter with the f12 and just ex shock them. Is that the most reliable punish starter against people online? May just go into practice mode and set AI to spam and try and counter. But as just mentioned online is totally different so what works in practice mode is not always viable? Its also definitely possible that I suck and start to panic with my inputs after blocking because I get so excited to dish out some big damage LOL

 

[nugava]

If you don't know the frame data of your opponent's move, just do f12b2. But even if it's 6 frames slower, some moves are easier to punish with b3 or b2 (Like Erron's slide.)