Strategy - Warlock Quan Chi Warlock Variation Discussion Thread

[Rude]

So I wasn't sure where to put this, but this seems to be the most logical place (instead of starting a new thread)

With the new patch, Quan gained a meterless overhead launcher with his B2. If you hold it, it pops them up in the air leading to more combo possibilities. This morning I stumbled upon a practical use for this new B2 launcher. It's slow, so just throwing it out randomly will only get you punished. HOWEVER, after an EX portal scoop, you have ample time to do it. Basically, end your combo with an EX portal scoop, and immediately B2. This will catch them on the ground, causing a reset to happen. So long as they don't wake up with an armoured attack, that is. If they wake up without armour, or try to backdash, or whatever, they'll get hit.

For instance: B324, 14 trance, F212 EX Scoop, B2. And then whatever combo after. I apologize for not having a video, but this is a cool set up that's now possible with the new patch.

Awesome. I'll have to mess with this and see how much damage we can get.

 

[STK]

Are there any new combos now that scoop is faster?

 

[legion666]

So, I have just recently started looking into Warlock more. What I can't understand is with his Ex df2 or Portal Stab he can create a restand and go for the guaranteed mixup for the cost if a bar of meter. But isn't that possible in his every variation with Ex Throw? I mean every character can do that, and Warlock really needs meter, why would you wanna spend a bar on that when you need it for EX Scoop and Ex Runes. Without meter he is just Quan with a f3:/
Even if you want to go for a huge combo into reset to finish your opponent and use a bar for that, there is always an Ex throw. So what is the point of this move costing a bar. Df2 is useless itself as it's tracking sucks. I think they should make the Portal stab a non EX move, which won't cost a bar, that way this variation will really become a great alternative to Summoner and Sorcerer.

 

[STRYKIE]

So, I have just recently started looking into Warlock more. What I can't understand is with his Ex df2 or Portal Stab he can create a restand and go for the guaranteed mixup for the cost if a bar of meter. But isn't that possible in his every variation with Ex Throw? I mean every character can do that, and Warlock really needs meter, why would you wanna spend a bar on that when you need it for EX Scoop and Ex Runes. Without meter he is just Quan with a f3:/
Even if you want to go for a huge combo into reset to finish your opponent and use a bar for that, there is always an Ex throw. So what is the point of this move costing a bar. Df2 is useless itself as it's tracking sucks. I think they should make the Portal stab a non EX move, which won't cost a bar, that way this variation will really become a great alternative to Summoner and Sorcerer.

I've also been looking into Warlock recently, and while I'm all for the variation getting as much help as it needs, I'm gonna be honest, if the Portal Stab was a meterless move, Warlock would be absolutely broken IMO. You would be able to use it to trade with projectiles, run up and get a free grab everytime since the opponent would be too worried about the OH/Low mixup. Which would also make using F3 kinda pointless.

Maybe it would be fine with the following regulations:

- Significantly less damage than the EX version, I'd say 5%

- Much more unsafe on block

- Possibly disable the guaranteed throw attempt

(for the record, this would only be for the meterless version, I'm not suggesting changes for the EX version)

That way, people would only be encouraged to use it as a restand/vortex tool.

As an added bonus, I wish the meterless Scoop was at least +3 on hit.

Granted, I do think Warlock is underrepresented and it doesn't help that Summoner and Sorcerer already exist. Maybe it's just not in the right hands for a better example to follow yet.

Edit: OR, they could make the meterless scoop launch like the EX version, and then we could use trance into standing 4 for a restand/vortex situation.

Scrubs would lose their shit over that though....

Are there any new combos now that scoop is faster?

21xxScoop now connects. You can also connect scoop after a gravity scaled F2122 launch. Could be useful for situational punishes I guess.

 

[ImmortalSkillit]

Combo wise, it really just leads to a bit more swag-ish combos in the corner (uppercuts out of corners into en. Scoop, etc) but they're not ideal. The faster scoops imo were simply there to help quan not get his armor beat out as much by fast hitting attacks.

Portal Stab on the other hand is....well, its hugely situational.

Basically, I find that if im sitting on 2+ meter, ive landed a combo and my opponent will die if I can land another 30~%, ill end in stab and go for the winning 50/50 or grab if their health permits it. I'll also do it if I know my opponent has no idea how to block Quan (usually online) since it just helps get matches over. The ONLY other time ill do a stab is if im behind in a set and need to make something happen. Never underestimate the power of surprising your opponent. If you wait to whip out a stab til game 3 blah blah, you might just catch em with their pants down like you threw a knuckleball to a batter expecting the high heater.

Portal grab is simply a meter builder/combo ender. Don't use it in neutral game, its fairly gross. Stick with F3, runes and skulls.

 

[legion666]

Combo wise, it really just leads to a bit more swag-ish combos in the corner (uppercuts out of corners into en. Scoop, etc) but they're not ideal. The faster scoops imo were simply there to help quan not get his armor beat out as much by fast hitting attacks.

Portal Stab on the other hand is....well, its hugely situational.

Basically, I find that if im sitting on 2+ meter, ive landed a combo and my opponent will die if I can land another 30~%, ill end in stab and go for the winning 50/50 or grab if their health permits it. I'll also do it if I know my opponent has no idea how to block Quan (usually online) since it just helps get matches over. The ONLY other time ill do a stab is if im behind in a set and need to make something happen. Never underestimate the power of surprising your opponent. If you wait to whip out a stab til game 3 blah blah, you might just catch em with their pants down like you threw a knuckleball to a batter expecting the high heater.

Portal grab is simply a meter builder/combo ender. Don't use it in neutral game, its fairly gross. Stick with F3, runes and skulls.

I agree with what you are saying, but I mean every character can use Ex Throw for the same standing reset into a mix up. Throw of course can be teched but as you said it is a surprise tactic, and Portal Stab itself doesn't give you anything extra which you can't do with ex throw. So with portal grab having no other use then ending a combo with and Portal stab costing a bar doing the same thing ex throw does, I think it would make sense to make the portal stab a non EX attack without armor but with the same reset properties not costing a bar.

 

[ImmortalSkillit]

Eh. I mean, you get damage AND the reset off of stab, not to mention i've got to assume it hits on a lot more strings since you can cancel into it whereas a grab would miss, I really feel that its got its place and its fine right where its at. Thats just my opinion though, if you want it to be super awesome who am I to say no? =P

Truthfully, I feel that a stab coming off of a regular portal grab would be a bit over the top. It would be like Sub Zero's ice ball coming out and hitting nearly instantly, leaving them wide open for run up 50/50 games. Warlocks would stop what they are doing now and try to fish out naked stabs, unless it was super stupid negative on block or miss of course.

It would no doubt be strong, but imo Warlock is great right where he's at; there isn't really much you can throw at him that he doesn't have a tool to handle.

 

[videohmstr]

So, I have just recently started looking into Warlock more. What I can't understand is with his Ex df2 or Portal Stab he can create a restand and go for the guaranteed mixup for the cost if a bar of meter. But isn't that possible in his every variation with Ex Throw? I mean every character can do that, and Warlock really needs meter, why would you wanna spend a bar on that when you need it for EX Scoop and Ex Runes. Without meter he is just Quan with a f3:/
Even if you want to go for a huge combo into reset to finish your opponent and use a bar for that, there is always an Ex throw. So what is the point of this move costing a bar. Df2 is useless itself as it's tracking sucks. I think they should make the Portal stab a non EX move, which won't cost a bar, that way this variation will really become a great alternative to Summoner and Sorcerer.

Better damage, better advantage, better combo opportunity's to land it, cannot be teched, plus you can throw them; the only advantage that EX throw has over stab is the ability to switch sides, but (Sorcerer/Warlock) Quan should always end a combo on whichever side he wants.

 

[legion666]

Better damage, better advantage, better combo opportunity's to land it, cannot be teched, plus you can throw them; the only advantage that EX throw has over stab is the ability to switch sides, but (Sorcerer/Warlock) Quan should always end a combo on whichever side he wants.

It gives like 3-5% more damage and an opportunity for 12%? Not worth a bar in my opinion:/ especially when this bar needs to be used for armor or to make your only footsy tool safe (b2).

 

[Rude]

It gives like 3-5% more damage and an opportunity for 12%? Not worth a bar in my opinion:/ especially when this bar needs to be used for armor or to make your only footsy tool safe (b2).

Adding 12% to a 34% combo seems plenty worth it. Especially since you don't necessarily HAVE to do the 50/50.

 

[legion666]

Adding 12% to a 34% combo seems plenty worth it. Especially since you don't necessarily HAVE to do the 50/50.

Did you notice how I said an opportunity for 12%, so no throw isn't guaranteed and you are giving a bar away for a chance at 12% or a mix up ( unsafe most of the time because again you need meter to make it safe). I have played a lot of offline sets with Warlock recently and I can definitely say that without a bar you can't do anything safe. I was specifically fishing for the right opportunity to use his Portal Stab for a reset. And whenever I spend my bar on that, regardless of the success of the mix up, I found myself at extreme disadvantage afterwards. His footsies are as bad in this variation as they are in others.

 

[ImmortalSkillit]

Wait, i thought the original topic at hand was if ex grab was better off than Stab? I only ask because we gave several reasons why its worth using over grab, then you (Legion) say that those benefits arn't worth the bar? Im sure im missing something, because last time I checked getting something for something is a LOT better than getting nothing for something.

(I was going to cut quotes but I can't figure out how to do it from my mobile. Its all here on this page though.)

Ex. Stab > Ex. Throw. If you don't agree, please tell me why it isn't.

 

[Rude]

Did you notice hCannota anity foo throw isn't guaranteed and you are giving a bar away for a chance at 12% or a mix up ( unsafe most of the time because again you need meter to make it safe). I have played a lot of offline sets with Warlock recently and I can definitely say that without a bar you can't do anything safe. I was specifically fishing for the right opportunity to use his Portal Stab for a reset. And whenever I spend my bar on that, regardless of the success of the mix up, I found myself at extreme disadvantage afterwards. His footsies are as bad in this variation as they are in others.

Who cares if it's unsafe? It's a 50/50. So you have to take a risk. Big whoop.


No one ever techs the throw. It's guaranteed because your opponent is looking for the 50/50 after the stab, not the throw.

If you have them looking for the throw, then you can do your 50/50 after.

If you guess right after a portal stab, you're taking half life or more for a single bar.

I also play offline vs a variety of players, so let's not wave that particular dick around, shall we?

You don't even have to do the 50/50 if you don't want to. Sometimes, I'll do f212 and either walk back and whiff punish a poke, cross up and THEN do the 50/50, d3 into the OH, multiple d3s into OH/Low, etc.

Why? Conditioning. Which you can use portal stab for. It's not just a reset. You can use it to add another layer of yomi to your game. So when you do the move, they have to start thinking, "Is he going to jump? Is he going to do the 50/50? Is he going to throw?"

To review:

Portal Stab does more damage
Hits anywhere on screen
Cannot be teched.

What more do you want?

 

[Rude]

Oh, and he has a few safe things he can do without meter.

141 is safe(Sub Slide could not punish, Mileena's ex ball roll could not punish, only Tempest Lao spin)

D4(+21 on hit) is safe and reaches almost as far as b2.(No one punishes)


B1 is safe from max range(No punish from Tempest Spin, Sub Slide or Ball roll).

F3 is safe everywhere on the screen except up close(Starting at the spacing where the match begins, Mileena ex roll could not punish. Only punishable up close)

F212 is safe.

F21 is safe(Sub Slide can't punish, Tempest Spin can't punish from it's max range, ex Ball Roll can't punish.)

F212 by itself builds pretty good meter and being only at -1, you can check with your d1, or bait a poke, etc.

Only a couple things on this list were punishable by Tempest Spin, and that's the exception, not the rule.

Also, F3 punishes Sub Zero's b2, something that Quan can't do in the other two variations.

F3 actually punishes a lot of things that Quan normally only gets a check for in the other two variations.

 

[legion666]

Oh, and he has a few safe things he can do without meter.

141 is safe(Sub Slide could not punish, Mileena's ex ball roll could not punish, only Tempest Lao spin)

D4(+21 on hit) is safe and reaches almost as far as b2.(No one punishes)


B1 is safe from max range(No punish from Tempest Spin, Sub Slide or Ball roll).

F3 is safe everywhere on the screen except up close(Starting at the spacing where the match begins, Mileena ex roll could not punish. Only punishable up close)

F212 is safe.

F21 is safe(Sub Slide can't punish, Tempest Spin can't punish from it's max range, ex Ball Roll can't punish.)

F212 by itself builds pretty good meter and being only at -1, you can check with your d1, or bait a poke, etc.

Only a couple things on this list were punishable by Tempest Spin, and that's the exception, not the rule.

Also, F3 punishes Sub Zero's b2, something that Quan can't do in the other two variations.

F3 actually punishes a lot of things that Quan normally only gets a check for in the other two variations.

Do you actually play offline with him?! Because I took him to sets with a pretty good player and after like 50 matches in he was teching half of my throws from Portal Stab. And it doesn't hit everywhere on the screen - the tracking on it sucks, if your opponent jumps or runs it whiffs like crazy.
All of the post Portal Stab gimmicks you are talking about work only couple times on good players and then you are fucked.
And did you just say you walk back after f212 on block when you are at -1?????????WTF??!?!? I understand backdashing, but walking?!?!?You will get full combo punished half the time for that against a competent player, especially with Quan's walk speed.
All of those safe options you have mentioned are slow as hell (d4 - 15 frames, f2-16 frames)except maybe 141 and b1 (but it is still 14 frames) but after these two it is your opponent's turn to pressure you and if they hit you don't get anything. Plus 1 is a high and gets destroyed by low profiles.
F3 whiffs on runners and jumpers a lot and it has 34 frames of recovery. Which means run xx full combo, jump xx full combo.
And when you asked what more do I want... I mean I have already stated my opinion I want either better tracking on f3, and df2, Ex df2 to rely on in zoning and building meter which he needs; or a meterless Portal stab without armor of course and it can be minus a million on block.

 

[Rude]

Do you actually play offline with him?! Because I took him to sets with a pretty good player and after like 50 matches in he was teching half of my throws from Portal Stab. And it doesn't hit everywhere on the screen - the tracking on it sucks, if your opponent jumps or runs it whiffs like crazy.
All of the post Portal Stab gimmicks you are talking about work only couple times on good players and then you are fucked.
And did you just say you walk back after f212 on block when you are at -1?????????WTF??!?!? I understand backdashing, but walking?!?!?You will get full combo punished half the time for that against a competent player, especially with Quan's walk speed.
All of those safe options you have mentioned are slow as hell (d4 - 15 frames, f2-16 frames)except maybe 141 and b1 (but it is still 14 frames) but after these two it is your opponent's turn to pressure you and if they hit you don't get anything. Plus 1 is a high and gets destroyed by low profiles.
F3 whiffs on runners and jumpers a lot and it has 34 frames of recovery. Which means run xx full combo, jump xx full combo.
And when you asked what more do I want... I mean I have already stated my opinion I want either better tracking on f3, and df2, Ex df2 to rely on in zoning and building meter which he needs; or a meterless Portal stab without armor of course and it can be minus a million on block.

I do. Often. If they're teching your throw, then you're throwing predictably.

It's a 50/50 to tech a throw. So if they're doing it consistently, you're doing the same throw over and over.

Also, instead of throwing, do your 50/50. They have to throw tech in anticipation, because you can't tech a throw on reaction. So your 50/50 will hit.

I'm sorry your offline partners are abusing you for what is obviously pattern play.

Quan's walk speed isn't bad at all. Believe it or not, but you don't have to be constantly running and dashing to move around the screen. Walking is completely serviceable. I stand inside other characters' d4 range and walk back to whiff punish consistently.

And because you're walking, you can block or use armor. It's fine.

Yes, you can walk back. Absolutely you can. If they try to poke, block. Or armor through it. If they're anticipating the full string, they're not going to immediately hit buttons after f212.

If they try, use your armored launcher.

No one is saying don't backdash. Do both.

If they're running to evade F3, use Skulls and Runes. F3 is the conditioning tool. They run to avoid that, and they're running right into a skull or a rune.

If you're terrified of using F3, then you're using it wrong. I've whiffed it and been punished, sure, but that's my bad, not F3's.

You're sounding like you want NO HOLES in Warlock's gameplay. If you whiff F3, you should get fucked up for it. Considering that it hits mid, the only way it whiffs is if they run or jump, and Quan has answers for that.

Point is: If they're running and hopping around to avoid F3, then they're playing your game.

You DO understand the concept of conditioning, don't you?

Those moves are slow?

13 frames for b1 is not slow. It's not reactable at all and it has hella range.

Standing 1 is 9 frames. Also not reactable. 141 on hit also sets up your zoning. 14 into Rune can give you your 50/50 or pressure. So what if it has a weakness? You can't have everything.

D4 is 15 frames, a little slower but definitely usable, especially since you can space it at the same distance as b2 and they can't react to either.

Due to It's range, I'm pretty sure you can hit confirm the b1 into b12 trance.

You can definitely use it to whiff punish.

F2 is 16, frames, but that's what your downpokes are for. D4 leaves you at +21, more than enough to run and do f212.

The tracking is fine on Portal Stab. It's not supposed to be an auto special. If you use it wrong, it will whiff. It's supposed to.

You want these portal moves to auto hit the opponent for free and that's not how they're supposed to work.

Now, it sounds to me like you want safe, loopable 50/50s. If so, play Summoner.

You see a move that's -8 and immediately assume the whole cast can full combo punish and that's not true.

To give you a frame of reference, Kotal Kahn's f2 is -10 on block. Tempest Lao spin can't punish it from max range and definitely not on reaction.

There is a lot more that goes into punishing than knowing frame data.

I like all three variations and think each one serves a purpose.

 

[Rude]

How are you "fucked" with these alleged "gimmicks" after portal Stab?

They can't move. If they tech a throw, you're safe.

If they block f212, you're safe.

If you cross up, you're still safe because they're still in the portal stab animation.

If you do d3, it's only -1 so you're safe.

If you mix all of this up, instead of doing the same stuff over and over there is NO WAY you're getting blown up 10/10 times.

And even IF you're afraid of all those safe options, you can always use meter on a 50/50, whereby the low can only be armored on another correct guess between it and the Rune.

And if they make THAT read on top of all your other options, fuck yes you should get punished

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

Do you actually play offline with him?! Because I took him to sets with a pretty good player and after like 50 matches in he was teching half of my throws from Portal Stab. And it doesn't hit everywhere on the screen - the tracking on it sucks, if your opponent jumps or runs it whiffs like crazy.
All of the post Portal Stab gimmicks you are talking about work only couple times on good players and then you are fucked.
And did you just say you walk back after f212 on block when you are at -1?????????WTF??!?!? I understand backdashing, but walking?!?!?You will get full combo punished half the time for that against a competent player, especially with Quan's walk speed.
All of those safe options you have mentioned are slow as hell (d4 - 15 frames, f2-16 frames)except maybe 141 and b1 (but it is still 14 frames) but after these two it is your opponent's turn to pressure you and if they hit you don't get anything. Plus 1 is a high and gets destroyed by low profiles.
F3 whiffs on runners and jumpers a lot and it has 34 frames of recovery. Which means run xx full combo, jump xx full combo.
And when you asked what more do I want... I mean I have already stated my opinion I want either better tracking on f3, and df2, Ex df2 to rely on in zoning and building meter which he needs; or a meterless Portal stab without armor of course and it can be minus a million on block.

Maaaaaaaan sorry to tell you but @Rude is right. If you haven't already been using f212 as a conditioning tool you should really start trying it, it's incredible. Especially in Warlock! The only time it's not that great is against characters with long range d4's.

The best way to use it is as Rude was describing, and this is how I use it too. Use f212 on block and feel the opponent out, see if they like to press buttons afterwards or if they sit and respect it. If they like to press buttons, a short walk backwards into b2 or b1 punish absolutely blows them up. Or if you are playing against someone who will d4 afterwards, then your armoured launcher will work wonders here. Honestly dude, f212 is one of Quan's best tools for just feeling your opponent out and determining what type of player they are, letting you exploit whatever their tendencies are. If they respect what you do after they block it, you can even go for your 5050! It honestly works! You just need to work it into your gameplan and try it out. I cannot endorse f212 enough!

 

[tra101]

Discuss all things Warlock variation related here! Who is the better Warlock, Gul'dan or Quan? How cool you think portal kick is. The possibilities are endless!

 

[tra101]

 

[legion666]

I do. Often. If they're teching your throw, then you're throwing predictably.

It's a 50/50 to tech a throw. So if they're doing it consistently, you're doing the same throw over and over.

Also, instead of throwing, do your 50/50. They have to throw tech in anticipation, because you can't tech a throw on reaction. So your 50/50 will hit.

I'm sorry your offline partners are abusing you for what is obviously pattern play.

Quan's walk speed isn't bad at all. Believe it or not, but you don't have to be constantly running and dashing to move around the screen. Walking is completely serviceable. I stand inside other characters' d4 range and walk back to whiff punish consistently.

And because you're walking, you can block or use armor. It's fine.

Yes, you can walk back. Absolutely you can. If they try to poke, block. Or armor through it. If they're anticipating the full string, they're not going to immediately hit buttons after f212.

If they try, use your armored launcher.

No one is saying don't backdash. Do both.

If they're running to evade F3, use Skulls and Runes. F3 is the conditioning tool. They run to avoid that, and they're running right into a skull or a rune.

If you're terrified of using F3, then you're using it wrong. I've whiffed it and been punished, sure, but that's my bad, not F3's.

You're sounding like you want NO HOLES in Warlock's gameplay. If you whiff F3, you should get fucked up for it. Considering that it hits mid, the only way it whiffs is if they run or jump, and Quan has answers for that.

Point is: If they're running and hopping around to avoid F3, then they're playing your game.

You DO understand the concept of conditioning, don't you?

Those moves are slow?

13 frames for b1 is not slow. It's not reactable at all and it has hella range.

Standing 1 is 9 frames. Also not reactable. 141 on hit also sets up your zoning. 14 into Rune can give you your 50/50 or pressure. So what if it has a weakness? You can't have everything.

D4 is 15 frames, a little slower but definitely usable, especially since you can space it at the same distance as b2 and they can't react to either.

Due to It's range, I'm pretty sure you can hit confirm the b1 into b12 trance.

You can definitely use it to whiff punish.

F2 is 16, frames, but that's what your downpokes are for. D4 leaves you at +21, more than enough to run and do f212.

The tracking is fine on Portal Stab. It's not supposed to be an auto special. If you use it wrong, it will whiff. It's supposed to.

You want these portal moves to auto hit the opponent for free and that's not how they're supposed to work.

Now, it sounds to me like you want safe, loopable 50/50s. If so, play Summoner.

You see a move that's -8 and immediately assume the whole cast can full combo punish and that's not true.

To give you a frame of reference, Kotal Kahn's f2 is -10 on block. Tempest Lao spin can't punish it from max range and definitely not on reaction.

There is a lot more that goes into punishing than knowing frame data.

I like all three variations and think each one serves a purpose.

I never said don't use walk back at all, you are putting words in my mouth. At d4 range you can do that definitely but after f212 on block you are point blank. If you are fighting TG Raiden for example he won't respect your + frames ever, especially when you are at -1. Especially with all that armor. I mean maybe my most played partner is just way too aggressive but walking with Quan when he is up close never works offline. Believe me I have tried that.
And why do you think I only throw him one way or don't use my 50/50 after Portal Stab??? It is just that after like 50 matches good player kinda gets a good feel of you, and I am the first guy to admit that the people I play in my offline scene are better players than me (some of them placed top 8 at last Nationals in MKX here in Russia).
B1 is 14 frames, not 13. It doesn't matter really because I like this move too, for it's range and relative safety, but again on hit it is +2, on block you are at -9 and if you aren't punished it is you opponent's turn to apply pressure.
But Hitconfirm b1 into b12xxtrance????? Seriously????) you must be a Jedi)))
Again you are saying how good 14 xx MB rune is but I know that, just like b2 xx MB rune , and b12 xx MB Rune, but this is what I am talking about when I say Warlock needs meter for safe footsies.
I don't want safe loopable 50/50. You are right I use Summoner for that) but Let's take Ermac, he has loopable 50/50 but they are unsafe. But his restand doesn't require meter. Warlock has unsafe loopable 50/50 that require meter if you use Portal Stab, if it doesn't require meter he will have what Ermac has. But of course he will save meter to either make 50/50 safe or make his footsies safe or use his armor.
You sound so condescending )))) Dude I appreciate all the options you are suggesting. And I am in no way trying to say I am a godlike player. Believe me I try all this options in offline setting. Can I ask you how many hours have you played this game offline with a competent player?

 

[legion666]

Maaaaaaaan sorry to tell you but @Rude is right. If you haven't already been using f212 as a conditioning tool you should really start trying it, it's incredible. Especially in Warlock! The only time it's not that great is against characters with long range d4's.

The best way to use it is as Rude was describing, and this is how I use it too. Use f212 on block and feel the opponent out, see if they like to press buttons afterwards or if they sit and respect it. If they like to press buttons, a short walk backwards into b2 or b1 punish absolutely blows them up. Or if you are playing against someone who will d4 afterwards, then your armoured launcher will work wonders here. Honestly dude, f212 is one of Quan's best tools for just feeling your opponent out and determining what type of player they are, letting you exploit whatever their tendencies are. If they respect what you do after they block it, you can even go for your 5050! It honestly works! You just need to work it into your gameplan and try it out. I cannot endorse f212 enough!

I appreciate your help guys, I am just saying walking back point blank after f212 on block doesn't work against players I play most often, maybe because it is mostly TG Raiden, SF Sonya, Tempest Lao, Tremor and Kobu Tanya but it is hard to make them respect your -1 - the risk reward is just not in my favor in most cases. I use armor a lot with Warlock to condition them not to press buttons( that is part of the reason why I feel he needs meter and is very meter dependent) but having to use meter in footsies, and to make you 50/50 safe, and the Portal Stab often leaves you with an empty bar. And at least the characters I play against blow up my walk back very often.
Again maybe it is just me, I am in not saying I am a good player or anything))) This is just what I got from my experience

 

[Rude]

I never said don't use walk back at all, you are putting words in my mouth. At d4 range you can do that definitely but after f212 on block you are point blank. If you are fighting TG Raiden for example he won't respect your + frames ever, especially when you are at -1. Especially with all that armor. I mean maybe my most played partner is just way too aggressive but walking with Quan when he is up close never works offline. Believe me I have tried that.
And why do you think I only throw him one way or don't use my 50/50 after Portal Stab??? It is just that after like 50 matches good player kinda gets a good feel of you, and I am the first guy to admit that the people I play in my offline scene are better players than me (some of them placed top 8 at last Nationals in MKX here in Russia).
B1 is 14 frames, not 13. It doesn't matter really because I like this move too, for it's range and relative safety, but again on hit it is +2, on block you are at -9 and if you aren't punished it is you opponent's turn to apply pressure.
But Hitconfirm b1 into b12xxtrance????? Seriously????) you must be a Jedi)))
Again you are saying how good 14 xx MB rune is but I know that, just like b2 xx MB rune , and b12 xx MB Rune, but this is what I am talking about when I say Warlock needs meter for safe footsies.
I don't want safe loopable 50/50. You are right I use Summoner for that) but Let's take Ermac, he has loopable 50/50 but they are unsafe. But his restand doesn't require meter. Warlock has unsafe loopable 50/50 that require meter if you use Portal Stab, if it doesn't require meter he will have what Ermac has. But of course he will safe meter to either make 50/50 safe or make his footsies safe or use his armor.
You sound so condescending )))) Dude I appreciate all the options you are suggesting. And I am in no way trying to say I am a godlike player. Believe me I try all this options in offline setting. Can I ask you how many hours have you played this game offline with a competent player?

You say I'm saying condescending...when you're the one who set the tone.

No, you can't walk back vs everyone but you definitely can. You have a LOT of options after F212. And as Cajoy already pointed out, walking back after does work.

Especially if they're expecting you to complete the string.

Anyway, It's very clear that you're looking for Warlock to be something it isn't. You're only focusing on the drawback of tools and not how to use them to their maximum efficiency.

As per your question, who counts the hours they've played offline?

You're seriously looking for anything to try and discredit me so that you can "win" the argument.

It's very clear thar we're not going to make any progress here and Warlock isn't for you.

Good Day, sir.

 

[Rude]

I appreciate your help guys, I am just saying walking back point blank after f212 on block doesn't work against players I play most often, maybe because it is mostly TG Raiden, SF Sonya, Tempest Lao, Tremor and Kobu Tanya but it is hard to make them respect your -1 - the risk reward is just not in my favor in most cases. I use armor a lot with Warlock to condition them not to press buttons( that is part of the reason why I feel he needs meter and is very meter dependent) but having to use meter in footsies, and to make you 50/50 safe, and the Portal Stab often leaves you with an empty bar. And at least the characters I play against blow up my walk back very often.
Again maybe it is just me, I am in not saying I am a good player or anything))) This is just what I got from my experience

One of my most consistent training partner is a Tempest Lao main.

I know that match up pretty well.

 

[legion666]

You say I'm saying condescending...when you're the one who set the tone.

No, you can't walk back vs everyone but you definitely can. You have a LOT of options after F212. And as Cajoy already pointed out, walking back after does work.

Especially if they're expecting you to complete the string.

Anyway, It's very clear that you're looking for Warlock to be something it isn't. You're only focusing on the drawback of tools and not how to use them to their maximum efficiency.

As per your question, who counts the hours they've played offline?

You're seriously looking for anything to try and discredit me so that you can "win" the argument.

It's very clear thar we're not going to make any progress here and Warlock isn't for you.

Good Day, sir.

Not at all, I am really wondering how other players' ( who play mostly offline ) experience with Warlock differs from mine. That is why I am asking if you play offline a lot to make sure we are on the same page.
I have already thanked Cabjoy, and I will thank you for your suggestions. I really want Warlock to work. That Is why I started looking into him for the second time)))
As I said some of this options just don't work for me, against the players I play and their characters. And I truly feel that Warlock is greatly meter dependent, that is why I am suggesting things, but of course buffing any QUan's variation at this point will cause a shit storm.
And I do believe that you have more experience with this variation than me. I remember arguing with you about it couple like a month or two after the launch) I have been playing Summoner mostly. So I am not discrediting anyone.

By the way I have a suggestion in balancing Summoner, I want to make a thread about it, think it will be a great way to get away from all those non-constructive Nerf Quan threads