General/Other - Quan Chi Quan Chi General Discussion Thread

[PANDEMlC]

Try it yourself. Do b2 into mb rune. Do b2 again. They AI will armor everytime.

Do b23 into mb rune. It will armor everytime.

Believe it or not, but i don't arbitrarily make shit up. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Yes, Summoner has better mix ups, certainly. I never said Warlock was better than Summoner.

I said that Warlock is good and people are sleeping on it. I know a lot about Quan, thank you.

With Sorcerer, if you guess wrong, even with armor, any multi hitting move can punish it.

So are we gonna keep measuring our dicks and chucking ad hominems or can we talk like regular human beings?

Are you upset child? Relax a bit, you just didn't write that correctly and said something that you didn't mean to.

Anyways, your point was that you can armor through his vortex which again, is not true. Yes you can armor through things after you block the mixup but that's completely different than armoring through the vortex. I hit you with trance, i do + hit advantage move and then you eat the mixup if I hit you back into the vortex you go, nowhere in that equation can you armor out, so again you're wrong in what you said. What you actually mean is a completely different thing, being able to armor after they've blocked your mixups. And I don't know enough about that area in Quan's game to really say what all his options are because the matchups vary so drastically but generally yeah you have to respect armor if they've blocked your mixup.

Now what? That was your main point about Warlock being good, you had nothing else so now there's nothing to talk about. Warlock still sucks in my eyes, you've yet to give any reasons why it's good other than what I mentioned in my post, which is it's armor move. That normal and the supposed better vortex you mentioned is not actually better, that was my entire point. Is that so hard to understand? Regardless if you can get out AFTER you've blocked correctly isn't the issue because there are so many variables there, the point is that it is indeed a vortex and from what I understand isn't much different from the 1 meter vortex you can do in Warlock. Instead of raging I'd like for your to post something of substance in relation to Warlock because I still have 0 reasons as to why this variation is worth picking outside of the armor move, which I've said before to me is not even close to enough to ever pick it over the other variations.

 

[Rude]

Are you upset child? Relax a bit, you just didn't write that correctly and said something that you didn't mean to.

Anyways, your point was that you can armor through his vortex which again, is not true. Yes you can armor through things after you block the mixup but that's completely different than armoring through the vortex. I hit you with trance, i do + hit advantage move and then you eat the mixup if I hit you back into the vortex you go, nowhere in that equation can you armor out, so again you're wrong in what you said. What you actually mean is a completely different thing, being able to armor after they've blocked your mixups. And I don't know enough about that area in Quan's game to really say what all his options are because the matchups vary so drastically but generally yeah you have to respect armor if they've blocked your mixup.

Now what? That was your main point about Warlock being good, you had nothing else so now there's nothing to talk about. Warlock still sucks in my eyes, you've yet to give any reasons why it's good other than what I mentioned in my post, which is it's armor move. That normal and the supposed better vortex you mentioned is not actually better, that was my entire point. Is that so hard to understand? Regardless if you can get out AFTER you've blocked correctly isn't the issue because there are so many variables there, the point is that it is indeed a vortex and from what I understand isn't much different from the 1 meter vortex you can do in Warlock. Instead of raging I'd like for your to post something of substance in relation to Warlock because I still have 0 reasons as to why this variation is worth picking outside of the armor move, which I've said before to me is not even close to enough to ever pick it over the other variations.

Reading comprehension is a problem for you. Let me try again.

You do b2 into mb rune. You go for the 50/50. You decide to do b2 again. I can armor.

You do b32 mb rune, you can armor the rune. Try it. I'm right. Do it with Sub Zero's slide. You will get armored everytime. Yes, it's a guess but it does happen. Not a true armor to the vortex. I misspoke there. But I'm definitely right about the above.

Now, consider Summoner's weak defense.

Sky Drop is awful for interrupting gaps such as:

The ones in Takeda pressue.

The gap between 113 and mb mimic in Cage's Stunt Double pressure.

Low grab handles these things and gives you a much bigger reward than Sky Drop.

The damage is equal to Summoner and better than Sorcerer without meter.

You have side reversal combos which can allow you to switch sides and put people into the corner easier.

You can use reversal portal grab as a reversal to take zoners, like Cyber Kano, and place them right in front of you.


I know. I've tried it. I'm pretty sure it works for Tanya's projectiles, too.

This means that against Cyber Kano, Pyro Tanya, maybe Kenshi, you have a reversal move that closes the gap.

With Summoner NJP loops, you deal about 20% per repetitio that's three correct guesses for 60%. With Warlock, you take half with one bar and one guess.

Again, i think Summoner is probably the best but Warlock is also good.

 

[Rude]

What you're overlooking is that you don't always initiate the vortex with trance. Sometimes you do it off a jump in or the advantage off the d3 or....or....OOOORRRR....

Sometimes, you have to use rune. If you attempt this, some of the follow ups can be armored. That's what I'm talking about.

 

[PANDEMlC]

Reading comprehension is a problem for you. Let me try again.

You do b2 into mb rune. You go for the 50/50. You decide to do b2 again. I can armor.

You do b32 mb rune, you can armor the rune. Try it. I'm right. Do it with Sub Zero's slide. You will get armored everytime. Yes, it's a guess but it does happen.

Now, consider Summoner's weak defense.

Sky Drop is awful for interrupting gaps such as:

The ones in Takeda pressue.

The gap between 113 and mb mimic in Cage's Stunt Double pressure.

Low grab handles these things and gives you a much bigger reward than Sky Drop.

The damage is equal to Summoner and better than Sorcerer without meter.

You have side reversal combos which can allow you to switch sides and put people into the corner easier.

You can use reversal portal grab as a reversal to take zoners, like Cyber Kano, and place them right in front of you.


I know. I've tried it. I'm pretty sure it works for Tanya's projectiles, too.

This means that against Cyber Kano, Pyro Tanya, maybe Kenshi, you have a reversal move that closes the gap.

With Summoner NJP loops, you deal about 20% per repetitio that's three correct guesses for 60%. With Warlock, you take half with one bar and one guess.

Again, i think Summoner is probably the best but Warlock is also good.

I'm not going to even focus on the rest of your comment for now because of how you opened that up.

YOU SAID that you can armor through his vortex. I was simply correcting you, I comprehended what you wrote very clearly. Care to point to the part in your post where you said otherwise? I can do it for you I suppose.

"So you can armor through Quan Chi's regular vortex, right. Yeah. You can."

So how again am I reading this wrong? That's what YOU said, go look. It's not correct. I was responding under the assumption that you meant what you said and now you come back at me and tell me my reading comprehension sucks? Fuck you. Learn to write correctly because what you think you say and what you are actually saying are two different things. Get your head out your own ass for two seconds and admit you're wrong and move on. Quan's vortex is the trance into d3, f2, s3, etc. Not the part after they block the mixup. You think since you know so much you'd at least know that. Doing a mixup into ex rune is a mixup and nothing else, the vortex is the loopable restand part not the scenario after your mixup is blocked.

Now for the rest of your post, yeah that armor move is good, thank you for proving my point, the only thing he has in that variation that is good. I don't think interrupting gaps is as important for Quan as you, that's a completely subjective thing and only in a few matchups(mostly against people like Jax, Liu, Dvorah) could I ever imagine wanting it that badly to potentially ever switch to Warlock.

As for against zoners, sure it's another option but it's not needed. Quan zones better than anyone, if someone wants to go fullscreen I'll beat them. Obviously in certain scenarios and in certain matchups maybe they but you in a bad situation where you can't get your zoning out so easily but generally speaking your zoning trumps all.

You don't need NJP loops to mix people up with Quan, they are good from time to time but they're riskier than the traditional d3 into b324 or b2 mixups. As for the Warlock damage you say you can take half? Half of what? His health? For one bar? I get 60% in summoner off of b2 into a correctly hit mixup for one bar, only need to have them to get hit and guess wrong once. So how does Warlock do that better? I'm not asking condescendingly and arrogantly like you might do. I'm genuinely not seeing it, Summoner does more damage and has better mixups and a better vortex. Unless you're somehow getting 60% while putting them back into the vortex without spending another bar I don't see how Warlock beats Summoner. You get to use the meter for ex runes instead of on the setting up of the vortex, once they're in it there's more variables they have to account for, harder to block mixups and if you go for damage you can leave them fullscreen where you can start your zoning game which is much better in summoner.

You also mention sky drop, which I don't know if you realize is a really shitty armor move and most Quan's never fucking use it. Maybe if I know I can armor through a single hit move that is being abused or a long recovery projectile to end a round sure I'll use it, but otherwise, meter is best used on breaker and ex runes. Not saying it's entirely useless but you put too much stake in armoring through things imo.

EDIT: Let me further add that you can(at least gainst subzeros armored slide) get out strings that they can not armor though after the blocked ex rune. B324, 141 and 12 for example can come out fast enough to hit during that +14 window rune gives you. So if they really are looking to armor through your followup they have to respect those lows and pressure which if they do allows for another b2. If they don't b324 launches right back into the vortex.

 

[Rude]

I'm not going to even focus on the rest of your comment for now because of how you opened that up.

YOU SAID that you can armor through his vortex. I was simply correcting you, I comprehended what you wrote very clearly. Care to point to the part in your post where you said otherwise? I can do it for you I suppose.

"So you can armor through Quan Chi's regular vortex, right. Yeah. You can."

So how again am I reading this wrong? That's what YOU said, go look. It's not correct. I was responding under the assumption that you meant what you said and now you come back at me and tell me my reading comprehension sucks? Fuck you. Learn to write correctly because what you think you say and what you are actually saying are two different things. Get your head out your own ass for two seconds and admit you're wrong and move on. Quan's vortex is the trance into d3, f2, s3, etc. Not the part after they block the mixup. You think since you know so much you'd at least know that. Doing a mixup into ex rune is a mixup and nothing else, the vortex is the loopable restand part not the scenario after your mixup is blocked.

Now for the rest of your post, yeah that armor move is good, thank you for proving my point, the only thing he has in that variation that is good. I don't think interrupting gaps is as important for Quan as you, that's a completely subjective thing and only in a few matchups(mostly against people like Jax, Liu, Dvorah) could I ever imagine wanting it that badly to potentially ever switch to Warlock.

As for against zoners, sure it's another option but it's not needed. Quan zones better than anyone, if someone wants to go fullscreen I'll beat them. Obviously in certain scenarios and in certain matchups maybe they but you in a bad situation where you can't get your zoning out so easily but generally speaking your zoning trumps all.

You don't need NJP loops to mix people up with Quan, they are good from time to time but they're riskier than the traditional d3 into b324 or b2 mixups. As for the Warlock damage you say you can take half? Half of what? His health? For one bar? I get 60% in summoner off of b2 into a correctly hit mixup for one bar, only need to have them to get hit and guess wrong once. So how does Warlock do that better? I'm not asking condescendingly and arrogantly like you might do. I'm genuinely not seeing it, Summoner does more damage and has better mixups and a better vortex. Unless you're somehow getting 60% while putting them back into the vortex without spending another bar I don't see how Warlock beats Summoner. You get to use the meter for ex runes instead of on the setting up of the vortex, once they're in it there's more variables they have to account for, harder to block mixups and if you go for damage you can leave them fullscreen where you can start your zoning game which is much better in summoner.

You also mention sky drop, which I don't know if you realize is a really shitty armor move and most Quan's never fucking use it. Maybe if I know I can armor through a single hit move that is being abused or a long recovery projectile to end a round sure I'll use it, but otherwise, meter is best used on breaker and ex runes. Not saying it's entirely useless but you put too much stake in armoring through things imo.

EDIT: Let me further add that you can(at least gainst subzeros armored slide) get out strings that they can not armor though after the blocked ex rune. B324, 141 and 12 for example can come out fast enough to hit during that +14 window rune gives you. So if they really are looking to armor through your followup they have to respect those lows and pressure which if they do allows for another b2. If they don't b324 launches right back into the vortex.

So you completely missed the part where i corrected myself in the edit, right? The part where i said i misspoke?

Also i literally said that Summoner was the best.

I said that Warlock is also good, which it is.

Actually, Warlock Quan takes over half life with one bar. The vortex isn't just intiated the ways you mentioned. You also initiate your 50/50 off of mb rune since you won't always tranced them.

If you are in nuetral space and i do b2 into mb rune, you can armor out of a b2 follow up. This is a fact. Using b2 into mb rune, in open space, outside of trance, is literally done all of the time. Eat fewer paint chips, please.

I put too much stake in armoring through strings?

Do yourself a favor. Go read other forums.

What is the number one thing people say when you talk about dealing with pressure/mix ups/etc?

Armor. It's everywhere. See for yourself. Having a combo starter that advances and armors is a big deal.

As is the counter zoning in some match ups.

There are match ups where i would rather escape with Low grab than risk dying to use Sky Drop

And yeah, i know that if Quan mains can avoid it, they won't Sky Drop.

But guess what? Sometimes you are put in situations where your only option to escape is to use armor.

Now which is better? Sky Drop which only has armor on the way down and can be hit out of after he lands with down pokes...


Or an advancing, armored combo starter?

I'll say it again: Summoner is the best. No one but you is arguing over that. Warlock is also good.

Do i need to use crayons and an etch-a-sketch?

 

[Rude]

"Quan's zoning trumps all?"

You do realize there are projectiles that are faster than Runes and Skulls, right?

Like Cyber Kano's knives.

Tell me, do you really think Quan, even in Summoner, will out zone Kenshi, with his reflect? Or Tanya with her instant air fireballs, amazing mobility, etc?

Warlock can, in my opinion, handle the full screen battle vs. those characters better.

 

[Peckapowa]

"Quan's zoning trumps all?"

You do realize there are projectiles that are faster than Runes and Skulls, right?

Like Cyber Kano's knives.

Tell me, do you really think Quan, even in Summoner, will out zone Kenshi, with his reflect? Or Tanya with her instant air fireballs, amazing mobility, etc?

Warlock can, in my opinion, handle the full screen battle vs. those characters better.

kenshi can't reflect runes, a whiffed flurry and a free punish with a rune, and a blocked flurry a free check (which can be exed and grant a free rune or summon which has to be read with duckable flurry), also summoner bat once out can be released and then block can be held instantly after, giving him a free rune or projectile, also im sure a reflected skull at full screen there is more than enough time to jump over and shoot an air projectile which is reflected upwards which creates a mind game. Might be to slow on recovery though and punishable by flurry. Also Kenshi's reflect is much worst in this game on startup.

Once bat is established against any character quan wins the zoning war, not like prepatch where as soon as bat was out he could release it and block to trade then resummon it on contact and be safe causing him to outzone every single character in the game once bat was out once.

Every quan variation technically outzones kenshi due to the fact that rune outchips flurry (because of mb) and sword and also can be meterburned. also the fireball mindgames.

he can also evade when bat is out summoner and use it as a punisher, which with one bar leads to massive damage.

So one bat summon, and a ducked flurry, he can either ex rune, rune bat rune for 30ish, or bat release while ducking into ex trance,

or ex rune ex trance, or ex rune bat ex trance

Now: i've never played a tanya before because i am taking a break before predator comes out

But summoner can probably anti-zone efficiently against her or even out. I am certain her projectile recovery isn't op )i tested it in online practivce), and i've seen the hitboxes, they can be avoided and summoned on read, and im not sure whether she can rejump after they are blocked if you rune.

Also once bat is out you can release bat and block her air fireballs (possibly on reaction) to destroy her and trades. Once knocked down you can fireball/rune frame trap her till you get it out and have the zoning advantage.

It'd be a very fun tricky match, he might not win it. But i am certain the bat would be competitive in the zoning battle and at dealing with her bs. It would require timing and practice, but you might get some ridiculous punishes on her by simpling releasing bat and converting into runes or ex trance.

This is just in theory i'd have to test it, she might be too quick im gonna google.

 

[Peckapowa]

So you completely missed the part where i corrected myself in the edit, right? The part where i said i misspoke?

Also i literally said that Summoner was the best.

I said that Warlock is also good, which it is.

Actually, Warlock Quan takes over half life with one bar. The vortex isn't just intiated the ways you mentioned. You also initiate your 50/50 off of mb rune since you won't always tranced them.

If you are in nuetral space and i do b2 into mb rune, you can armor out of a b2 follow up. This is a fact. Using b2 into mb rune, in open space, outside of trance, is literally done all of the time. Eat fewer paint chips, please.

I put too much stake in armoring through strings?

Do yourself a favor. Go read other forums.

What is the number one thing people say when you talk about dealing with pressure/mix ups/etc?

Armor. It's everywhere. See for yourself. Having a combo starter that advances and armors is a big deal.

As is the counter zoning in some match ups.

There are match ups where i would rather escape with Low grab than risk dying to use Sky Drop

And yeah, i know that if Quan mains can avoid it, they won't Sky Drop.

But guess what? Sometimes you are put in situations where your only option to escape is to use armor.

Now which is better? Sky Drop which only has armor on the way down and can be hit out of after he lands with down pokes...


Or an advancing, armored combo starter?

I'll say it again: Summoner is the best. No one but you is arguing over that. Warlock is also good.

Do i need to use crayons and an etch-a-sketch?

If properly timing b3 should be uninteruptable after ex runes because they are plus 15 its quicker than that i believe. or they are plus 14, i forget, either wway im certain it is quicker.

 

[Peckapowa]

Warlock's good for humorous purposes because its fun to spam f3. its not trash but i think for counter-zoning, the rune is 14 frames, and it kind of overlaps with the superior kick. And the bat once out is the best counter-zoning tool in the game. then we talk mixup potential, zoning and footsies, summoner wins.

But warlock might be a good idea if you really really need wakeups, and the char has a cyber kano projectile you can't duck and it becomes difficult to get bat out.

Also being able to armor that sword is also extremely strong for counter-zoning.

I'm sure warlock and summoner both do great vs kenshi.

Also warlock might be the best option against cyber kano.

Can't think of anything else.

 

[Rude]

If properly timing b3 should be uninteruptable after ex runes because they are plus 15 its quicker than that i believe. or they are plus 14, i forget, either wway im certain it is quicker.

B3, yes. B2, no.

Also, I'm not saying Summoner can't outzone these characters. What I'm saying is that you won't always be the first to get started so to speak, in the zoning war. That's a fact of fighting matches against people.

Against characters like these, i think Warlock's reversal options could be very useful, especially if they "get started" first.

It's a matter of momentum in a momentum heavy game, and when you don't have it, i think Warlock's toolset can help you regain it.

Does that make more sense?

 

[Rude]

Warlock's good for humorous purposes because its fun to spam f3. its not trash but i think for counter-zoning, the rune is 14 frames, and it kind of overlaps with the superior kick. And the bat once out is the best counter-zoning tool in the game. then we talk mixup potential, zoning and footsies, summoner wins.

But warlock might be a good idea if you really really need wakeups, and the char has a cyber kano projectile you can't duck and it becomes difficult to get bat out.

Also being able to armor that sword is also extremely strong for counter-zoning.

I'm sure warlock and summoner both do great vs kenshi.

Also warlock might be the best option against cyber kano.

Can't think of anything else.

Again, i never thought that Warlock was better than Summoner, not ever

I just do not, for one second, think it's trash as some players seem to.

 

[Peckapowa]

B3, yes. B2, no.

Also, I'm not saying Summoner can't outzone these characters. What I'm saying is that you won't always be the first to get started so to speak, in the zoning war. That's a fact of fighting matches against people.

Against characters like these, i think Warlock's reversal options could be very useful, especially if they "get started" first.

It's a matter of momentum in a momentum heavy game, and when you don't have it, i think Warlock's toolset can help you regain it.

Does that make more sense?

Warlock would be a good idea vs cyber kano, not vs kenshi at all imo and maybe vs tanya because of the armor on stab, but also summoner has options vs it that might be strong.

The major problem is that rune is a fantastic counter-zoning check because it is so fast and it severely overlaps with the footkick.

 

[Rude]

Warlock would be a good idea vs cyber kano, not vs kenshi at all imo and maybe vs tanya because of the armor on stab, but also summoner has options vs it that might be strong.

The major problem is that rune is a fantastic counter-zoning check because it is so fast and it severely overlaps with the footkick.

One thing about the portal grab though is that it can close space between yourself and the zoning character. It's why i like it as a reversal.

 

[Peckapowa]

Again, i never thought that Warlock was better than Summoner, not ever

I just do not, for one second, think it's trash as some players seem to.

Well, imo quan has to win either vortexing to death, or zoning to death, because hes not very good in footsies (unless he has meter), and once he gets knocked down its a living hell(which warlock can help with a bit. The thing is, his footsies vortex and zoning are super meter dependent to be competitive, and the bat solves all those problems and makes every one of those aspects far superior So when you think warlock, yes it fixes the wake up a bit, but it nerfs the zoning, and meter build, and footsies, and mixups (in regards to summoner). Consider rune solves about 90% of the anti-zoning problems on the own it just feels very out of place in regards to summoner. Even sorceror has excellent counter-zoning once armor is established. I think that is why people call it trash.

IMO warlock does not compete with the stupid as shit at the top of this game, and is dwarfed in comparison to his overhyped sorceror variation and summoner. So people think it is trash.

 

[legion666]

B3, yes. B2, no.

Also, I'm not saying Summoner can't outzone these characters. What I'm saying is that you won't always be the first to get started so to speak, in the zoning war. That's a fact of fighting matches against people.

Against characters like these, i think Warlock's reversal options could be very useful, especially if they "get started" first.

It's a matter of momentum in a momentum heavy game, and when you don't have it, i think Warlock's toolset can help you regain it.

Does that make more sense?

Why do you use the fact that you can armor out of b2 after MB rune against Summoner????! Warlock has that problem too, Summoner can at least cover that with bat sometimes.

 

[Rude]

Why do you use the fact that you can armor out of b2 after MB rune against Summoner????! Warlock has that problem too, Summoner can at least cover that with bat sometimes.

I never made this about Summoner vs. Warlock.

I never said Warlock was better. I said Warlock was being slept on, that it was good and it had value

Fair enough. I'm content with seeing value in all three variations.

 

[legion666]

I never made this about Summoner vs. Warlock.

I never said Warlock was better. I said Warlock was being slept on, that it was good and it had value

Fair enough. I'm content with seeing value in all three variations.

Nah! It is all good. You were just making point about how warlock's ex stab eliminates the ability to armor out of his vortex, but you can't armor out of a normal METERLESS vortex either ( trance into f21 leaves you at +16 and b2 is 15 frames). Why even bother spending a bar?!

 

[Rude]

Nah! It is all good. You were just making point about how warlock's ex stab eliminates the ability to armor out of his vortex, but you can't armor out of a normal METERLESS vortex either ( trance into f21 leaves you at +16 and b2 is 15 frames). Why even bother spending a bar?!

That's one frame. If you're off by that frame, they have options.

Even high level players can fuck up frame perfect inputs in a real match.

The value of Warlock's Vortex, in my opinion, is this:

You spend a bar and there is absolutely no chance of any kind of escape unless you don't apply your 50/50. More importantly, The Warlock Vortex has great corner carry. One combo into MB Sword Stab, intona correct guess carries the opponent all the way into the corner.

And as we know, the corner is where the majority of this game's momentum based gameplay leads to.

 

[legion666]

That's one frame. If you're off by that frame, they have options.

Even high level players can fuck up frame perfect inputs in a real match.

The value of Warlock's Vortex, in my opinion, is this:

You spend a bar and there is absolutely no chance of any kind of escape unless you don't apply your 50/50. More importantly, The Warlock Vortex has great corner carry. One combo into MB Sword Stab, intona correct guess carries the opponent all the way into the corner.

And as we know, the corner is where the majority of this game's momentum based gameplay leads to.

You see I am sincerely trying to find the advantages of Warlock here as I am just starting to learn him. But I see no point on spending meter for the vortex you can do meterless. Especially when meter is so precious to Quan in general. The "one frame off" argument doesn't seem legit because we are talking perfect execution ( it is like people saying in the beginning of mk9 that Cyrax wasn't viable because it is too hard to land those resets in a real match).
Warlock essentially needs that meter MORE than any other variation, because for him it is the only way to make his mix ups and footsies safe (Summoner can use bat and Sorcerer the armor spell). Plus how are you gonna use his only true advantage ( in my opinion) in the form of viable armored wake up when you have no meter??!

 

[Rude]

You see I am sincerely trying to find the advantages of Warlock here as I am just starting to learn him. But I see no point on spending meter for the vortex you can do meterless. Especially when meter is so precious to Quan in general. The "one frame off" argument doesn't seem legit because we are talking perfect execution ( it is like people saying in the beginning of mk9 that Cyrax wasn't viable because it is too hard to land those resets in a real match).
Warlock essentially needs that meter MORE than any other variation, because for him it is the only way to make his mix ups and footsies safe (Summoner can use bat and Sorcerer the armor spell). Plus how are you gonna use his only true advantage ( in my opinion) in the form of viable armored wake up when you have no meter??!

You don't get the same damage or corner carry with his meterless vortex.

Warlock can get 50-70% damage with one bar and one right guess, depending on the combo you use. The end result of which leaves your opponent cornered.

You're acting like you will never have meter and no, mis timing on frame of advantage is not the same thing as Cyrax's bomb resets execution wise. At all.

Put it this way: Kano's fastest normal, a down poke, comes out in 8 frames. His MB Knives are +5 on block. This leaves you a three frame gap to armor through his follow up poke, which people do all the. If they can activate armor in a three frame gap window when he's +, there's no reason why a top player couldn't do it in one.

His advantages, in my opinion, are as follows:

A true, completely inescapable vortex regardless of timing(unless you just don't do your 50/50 after the sword stab hits).

Reversals to handle especially quick projectiles in the event that you fight a character that could compete with your zoning tools in Summoner. I explained what i mean about this more above. I won't write it again.

A true armored wake up attack that you can use to escape pressure and blockstrings that your normal pokes and armored Sky Drop are ill equipped to handle. Since a lot of characters have run cancel pressure and jailing strings and specials you can only beat with armor, this seems beneficial.

A 9% damage tracking normal that serves as a great whiff punisher and also happens to be faster than a lot of his other moves.

This is only theory at the moment, but there are moves that, because of pushback and block stun, combined with Quan's slow normals, are very difficult to punish, if you can punish them at all. I think the kick might be a work around this, even if it is only 9%.

But you are all convinced. That's how this site works. If Brady or REO don't use it in a tournament that half the posters on this site, myself included, will never travel to in our lifetimes, then it must be bad.

Nevermind that only one or two top players actually use this variation and one of them has yet to attend a truly big tournament. So no one has seen Warlock at the highest level as they have for Summoner and Sorcerer.

For the last time:

I never said Warlock was better than Summoner.

I never said it was better than Sorcerer.

I said that it was a good variation with a good set of tools that people don't see value in yet because it isn't as easy to use or apparent as the other two variations.

Things got heated. I said some unkind things i should not have. I accept that and apologize.

Play it.
Don't play it.
Whatever you want to do.

 

[legion666]

You don't get the same damage or corner carry with his meterless vortex.

Warlock can get 50-70% damage with one bar and one right guess, depending on the combo you use. The end result of which leaves your opponent cornered.

You're acting like you will never have meter and no, mis timing on frame of advantage is not the same thing as Cyrax's bomb resets execution wise. At all.

Put it this way: Kano's fastest normal, a down poke, comes out in 8 frames. His MB Knives are +5 on block. This leaves you a three frame gap to armor through his follow up poke, which people do all the. If they can activate armor in a three frame gap window when he's +, there's no reason why a top player couldn't do it in one.

His advantages, in my opinion, are as follows:

A true, completely inescapable vortex regardless of timing(unless you just don't do your 50/50 after the sword stab hits).

Reversals to handle especially quick projectiles in the event that you fight a character that could compete with your zoning tools in Summoner. I explained what i mean about this more above. I won't write it again.

A true armored wake up attack that you can use to escape pressure and blockstrings that your normal pokes and armored Sky Drop are ill equipped to handle. Since a lot of characters have run cancel pressure and jailing strings and specials you can only beat with armor, this seems beneficial.

A 9% damage tracking normal that serves as a great whiff punisher and also happens to be faster than a lot of his other moves.

This is only theory at the moment, but there are moves that, because of pushback and block stun, combined with Quan's slow normals, are very difficult to punish, if you can punish them at all. I think the kick might be a work around this, even if it is only 9%.

But you are all convinced. That's how this site works. If Brady or REO don't use it in a tournament that half the posters on this site, myself included, will never travel to in our lifetimes, then it must be bad.

Nevermind that only one or two top players actually use this variation and one of them has yet to attend a truly big tournament. So no one has seen Warlock at the highest level as they have for Summoner and Sorcerer.

For the last time:

I never said Warlock was better than Summoner.

I never said it was better than Sorcerer.

I said that it was a good variation with a good set of tools that people don't see value in yet because it isn't as easy to use or apparent as the other two variations.

Things got heated. I said some unkind things i should not have. I accept that and apologize.

Play it.
Don't play it.
Whatever you want to do.

I can get 60%+ with Summoner's vortex Meterless and it is still safe and guaranteed. With warlock if you spend meter on ending combo with the Ex Stab, you 50/50 will be unsafe unless you will spend a second bar to make it safe. That is 2 bars for the same thing Summoner gets meterless. Not to mention that if Summoner chooses to use b2 and low bat hitting a frame or two apart it will be harder to block and break armor. Again Meterless!
All the pluses you have mentioned require meter (apart from that wonderful f3 and df2 which whiff like crazy) .Counter zoning, wake ups, armor reversals - all require meter. Plus Ex runes in zoning and to make footsies safe. Sounds like hella meter depended character to me.
I lately I have been watching a lot of @Insuperable playing Warlock. He is great. I don't need anyone else to play him to convince me he is good. I just see how even he has problems in situations where Summoner would just wreck shit.
So far what I am getting from all that is wake ups and armor reversals are the only reasons to play Warlock. Oh and Swag, of course Swag.

 

[Rude]

I can get 60%+ with Summoner's vortex Meterless and it is still safe and guaranteed. With warlock if you spend meter on ending combo with the Ex Stab, you 50/50 will be unsafe unless you will spend a second bar to make it safe. That is 2 bars for the same thing Summoner gets meterless. Not to mention that if Summoner chooses to use b2 and low bat hitting a frame or two apart it will be harder to block and break armor. Again Meterless!
All the pluses you have mentioned require meter (apart from that wonderful f3 and df2 which whiff like crazy) .Counter zoning, wake ups, armor reversals - all require meter. Plus Ex runes in zoning and to make footsies safe. Sounds like hella meter depended character to me.
I lately I have been watching a lot of @Insuperable playing Warlock. He is great. I don't need anyone else to play him to convince me he is good. I just see how even he has problems in situations where Summoner would just wreck shit.
So far what I am getting from all that is wake ups and armor reversals are the only reasons to play Warlock. Oh and Swag, of course Swag.

Again...

For the 1,000,000,000,000th time.

I never said Summoner was worse than Warlock.

I said that Summoner was better.

You're arguing something that i never said wasn't true.

Warlock has tools which are good. Meter dependent? Sure.

So? You don't get bonus points for having meter at the end of a match.

You can make B2 into trabce safer with the option select.

Also, when i made my comment about damage i should have clarified: In order to get the same damage with Summoner that you get with Warlock you have to make them guess more times without meter.

B324, njp, b12 trance does 23%.
B2 into low bat and trance you do 9%. So for two right guesses you get 30%(rounding down).

You could always go for a full combo off b234 which nets around 35%, but it ends your vortex and you can't get damage off b2 without meter.

In order to get your 60% in Summoner, you either need to spend meter or make them guess more times.

Warlock does more with one guess and one bar, but isn't 100% safe and is meter reliant.

Which is why, for the last time, Warlock is not better than Summoner but it is still good and still has solid tools.


I don't know how many times i have to repeat myself to people.

 

[legion666]

Again...

For the 1,000,000,000,000th time.

I never said Summoner was worse than Warlock.

I said that Summoner was better.

You're arguing something that i never said wasn't true.

Warlock has tools which are good. Meter dependent? Sure.

So? You don't get bonus points for having meter at the end of a match.

You can make B2 into trabce safer with the option select.

Also, when i made my comment about damage i should have clarified: In order to get the same damage with Summoner that you get with Warlock you have to make them guess more times without meter.

B324, njp, b12 trance does 23%.
B2 into low bat and trance you do 9%. So for two right guesses you get 30%(rounding down).

You could always go for a full combo off b234 which nets around 35%, but it ends your vortex and you can't get damage off b2 without meter.

In order to get your 60% in Summoner, you either need to spend meter or make them guess more times.

Warlock does more with one guess and one bar, but isn't 100% safe and is meter reliant.

Which is why, for the last time, Warlock is not better than Summoner but it is still good and still has solid tools.


I don't know how many times i have to repeat myself to people.

What are you talking about?!?
B324 rising demon, dash, NJP , ji2, b2 xx trance, bat summon , f21 does 32 or 33% don't remember for sure -here you are at +16 and have a bat ready for mix ups
if you go for b2xxtrance low bat itself it does 14%, but after that if you continue the combo with
Bat summon f2122 run cancel d2 Demon's fire (fL2), far rune you get like 35%.
Add these together and you get about 65% METERLESS !!!!!!
Also if I go for simple b2/b3 mix up covered by a bat (which makes it safe ) I can get up to 40% again ...METERLESS,
So it is over 70%, and don't get me started about the corner where the wrong guess gives me 48% meterless with Summoner making the whole thing over 80% damage ...yeah you guessed it - METERLESS!
What were you saying about warlocks vortex being better?!?

 

[legion666]

Again...

For the 1,000,000,000,000th time.

I never said Summoner was worse than Warlock.

I said that Summoner was better.

You're arguing something that i never said wasn't true.

Warlock has tools which are good. Meter dependent? Sure.

So? You don't get bonus points for having meter at the end of a match.

You can make B2 into trabce safer with the option select.

Also, when i made my comment about damage i should have clarified: In order to get the same damage with Summoner that you get with Warlock you have to make them guess more times without meter.

B324, njp, b12 trance does 23%.
B2 into low bat and trance you do 9%. So for two right guesses you get 30%(rounding down).

You could always go for a full combo off b234 which nets around 35%, but it ends your vortex and you can't get damage off b2 without meter.

In order to get your 60% in Summoner, you either need to spend meter or make them guess more times.

Warlock does more with one guess and one bar, but isn't 100% safe and is meter reliant.

Which is why, for the last time, Warlock is not better than Summoner but it is still good and still has solid tools.


I don't know how many times i have to repeat myself to people.

And if we are talking about a continuous vortex:
B324, rising demon, dash, NJP , ji2, b2xx trance, bat summon f21 =32% for the low
B2xxClose Rune, Rising Demon, b2xx trance, bat summon f21 =30% for the overhead
Together it is 62%, and you can keep going plus it is absolutely safe and meterless.

 

[Rude]

And if we are talking about a continuous vortex:
B324, rising demon, dash, NJP , ji2, b2xx trance, bat summon f21 =32% for the low
B2xxClose Rune, Rising Demon, b2xx trance, bat summon f21 =30% for the overhead
Together it is 62%, and you can keep going plus it is absolutely safe and meterless.

I didn't know we were using impractical, combo video bnbs that you never see in actual tournament play for this discussion.

I'll concede that point. You are right about the damage.

But again....

I never said Warlock was better. That has never been my argument.

So again, you're arguing in favor of a position i never took.

I also never said Warlock was better or that it's vortex was objectively better.

Did i compare them? Sure. But i never literally said Warlock's was better. If anything, i was comparing and contrasting the two.


Again: Summoner is the best variation. This does not make Warlock bad by default. Warlock has a solid set of tools that people are overlooking in my opinion.


I'm not repeating myself again. If you can't grasp the thing I've said over and over about the two variations by now, you never will.