Strategy Punishing Smoke

[FrothyOmen]

After testing, Smoke's naked b23 seems to be -7 on block; Johnny Cage was used to test as he has 6,7,8, and 9 frame moves and his 8 and 9 frame moves never connected. A smoke bomb cancelled off b23 is -9 on block. If you don't have a move that hits that quickly, you cannot punish; smoke can block in time. If you're hitting Jade's 16 frame b1 after a blocked naked b23, there's something wrong. That is not mathematically possible.

Like I've said; Smoke is very rarely going to ever commit to a bomb on b23 when he can confirm the block and just not. This does not change his tier position, and if you think it does then you are not playing the matchup vs. him correctly and are failing to operate your block button. Smoke is Top 8 and isn't going anywhere

 

[TakeAChance]

I would love to see this explored further...if you walk backwards...will smokes d1 whiff? Like say you walk backwards to avoid the smoke bomb...can smoke d1 in time to catch you walking or will you be out of range and be able to whiff punish him?

 

[FrothyOmen]

if I had somebody test with I would expose all of this and make a video about it right now but alas I am alone in my dorm

 

[G4S KT]

d1 will whiff if you walk backwards over a SB

 

[TakeAChance]

d1 will whiff if you walk backwards over a SB

So, in other words there is nothing to fear with the b23 string anymore. Either smoke does it naked and is at disadvantage, or he smoke bombs and gets punished or he smokes away and both combatants are at neutral again.

 

[Qwark28]

Lets c.

If you whiff SB i can full combo punish
if i block SB i can throw/d4
If you smoke away i can iceball {BAITABLE AND PUNISHABLE}
if i block b23 i can d3

IF I D3

my 2 becomes 7f and i can pressure unless you d1

IF YOU D1 AFTER MY D3
i can d4,same frames as your d1 with the adv my d3 gives,which in the end gives free pressure.

IF I D1 AFTER B23
my d3 becomes 6f and can go against your d1

IF THAT HITS
then as i said my d4 is 6 frames

the above 2 are stupid because after the d1 you can just block,the scenarios apply if you stupidly still try to poke.

 

[G4S KT]

So, in other words there is nothing to fear with the b23 string anymore. Either smoke does it naked and is at disadvantage, or he smoke bombs and gets punished or he smokes away and both combatants are at neutral again.

Yes. If you block a full b23 youre in good shape. I didn't realize this was new to anyone though lol

 

[G4S KT]

EDIT DOUBLE POST

 

[GGA Wafflez]

well i'm fucked... carpooling to johnny cage with half the online players

 

[Playpal]

I'd like to point out to people that if Liu Kang couldn't pronounce his own name, his name probably wouldn't be Liu Kang.

 

[GGA Wafflez]

haha nah, really though. what kt said... most smokes are able to hitconfirm that b23... just look at how we have to play against cage.... used to it already... i also doubt we will be seeing many people do this

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

This is stupid. Smoke is going to hitconfirm the b23 bomb. Smoke can very easily do one of two things: confirm a block and smoke port away, or simply poke you. Thats not all of his potential options, either.

This is an extremely unsafe method of "punishing" a dialed in smoke bomb. What happens if you are just a few frames off? you're gonna get launched, and you're gonna have a bad time.

I appreciate my find being stupid in your eyes.
However, you can't really HC b2,3 (I stand corrected, you can apparently)... you pretty much have to commit to a special ... or nothing at all. b2,3 by itself is at the very least 0 on block ... and if it is confirmed to be negative... well then basically this stops your offense and an easy way to get your stuff going.
If you do throw out the smoke bomb... it is a full combo punish if I move a HAIR. Hell Raiden gets a b3... there is plenty of time to whiff punish that move.

Basically i'm safe to walk away after I block the 3... and you can't really do anything about it.

I really didn't expect this to be ground breaking... but you guys throw this move out (b2,3~SB)a lot more often than not on block... because it is fairly safe. Now it isn't. All I was pointing out.
You guys are having the same reaction the Jax community did when Foxy exposed f4 on low hit box characters

 

[FrothyOmen]

I appreciate my find being stupid in your eyes.
However, you can't really HC b2,3... you pretty much have to commit to a special ... or nothing at all. b2,3 by itself is at the very least 0 on block ... and if it is confirmed to be negative... well then basically this stops your offense and an easy way to get your stuff going.
If you do throw out the smoke bomb... it is a full combo punish if I move a HAIR. Hell Raiden gets a b3... there is plenty of time to whiff punish that move.
Basically i'm safe to walk away after I block the 3... and you can't really do anything about it.

Yes, you can hitconfirm b23. Ask tommy wafflez. Ask any other smoke player more reputable than I. It's doable.

Why do you say "i have to commit to a special" like it's a bad thing? There's a lot Smoke can do there. I'll have to wait on somberness's cancel advantage to see how b23~X situations optimally work out.

b23 was just confirmed to be -8 on block, which is much worse than I thought it was, so I concede that point that the string alone is not quite as good as I thought it was. To say it's not still one of the best 5 strings in the game is ludicrous, though. Besides, plain ol' b2 is 0 on block so there's plenty of stuff I can do with that move and other mixups.

What do I care if you walk away after the 3? That's exactly what I want you to do as Smoke; get the fuck away and let me run and sit on my life lead.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Yes, you can hitconfirm b23. Ask tommy wafflez. Ask any other smoke player more reputable than I. It's doable.

Why do you say "i have to commit to a special" like it's a bad thing? There's a lot Smoke can do there. I'll have to wait on somberness's cancel advantage to see how b23~X situations optimally work out.

b23 was just confirmed to be -8 on block, which is much worse than I thought it was, so I concede that point that the string alone is not quite as good as I thought it was. To say it's not still one of the best 5 strings in the game is ludicrous, though. Besides, plain ol' b2 is 0 on block so there's plenty of stuff I can do with that move and other mixups.

What do I care if you walk away after the 3? That's exactly what I want you to do as Smoke; get the fuck away and let me run and sit on my life lead.

its not a walk away... watch the vid. I don't really move away... i'm right there.. just not getting hit.
In any case... there is no way this helps smoke at all...
I haven't really used it in matches because... well most are online. I can easily see players stepping and just scouting what you do, because I'm fairly sure you can hit smoke out of the smoke away. If it turns out you can (I don't know, thats what I hoped you guys would start testing right after I posted) then again... you really want me to do this?

 

[Faded Dreams V]

Temjiin showed me this several weeks ago. It's cool, but as mentioned, if I use a B2 3, it's very easy for me to see whether or not the opponent is blocking. If he is, then I can hitconfirm into something else. That, or nothing at all. Very rarely do I use B2 3~SB while my opponent is on guard.

I will say one thing: if people master this, they won't have to respect the SB at all, which makes punishing other specials after B2 3 (i.e. Smoke Towards) a lot easier.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Why people always gotta be hating on new stuff?

if he's wrong, then just tell him and show him why. No reason to be all... "this is worthless", "this is stupid", etc Come on now.

 

[Faded Dreams V]

Why people always gotta be hating on new stuff?

if he's wrong, then just tell him and show him why. No reason to be all... "this is worthless", "this is stupid", etc Come on now.

Kinda why I keep everything to myself. If it works, it works. If not, I go back to the lab. lol.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Why people always gotta be hating on new stuff?

if he's wrong, then just tell him and show him why. No reason to be all... "this is worthless", "this is stupid", etc Come on now.

change is rather scary.

 

[xSMoKEx]

I don't get all the hate. It's quite useful depending on which character you use. Sure it's nothing major, but it's another solid peice of info you should keep in the back of your mind vs. Smoke.

If for some reason Smoke does to B23~SB you can full combo punish it much easier, negate some of Smoke's meter building, and not to mention punish harder than usual. (By doing this, the SB has more than 9 frames to punish, Shang's F4 worked, which is a 10 frame attack. That is all i have tested so far)

Sure B23~SB doesn't come out so often, as there's better alternatives but still, the info is useful. Also, for anyone who says, "This isn't practical" or, "Good luck doing this in a match" it is very easy to do especially because of B23's duration when thrown out, you have plenty of time to react.

 

[HD Smoke]

This is a really cool find sub crash. Smoke players though havent we always known that b2,3 SB on block is a no no? i prfer b2, d1 over b2,3 only problem is i connect with b2 a lot but am not good enough confirming it into smokebomb when i am trying to pressure.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

This is a really cool find sub crash. Smoke players though havent we always known that b2,3 SB on block is a no no? i prfer b2, d1 over b2,3 only problem is i connect with b2 a lot but am not good enough confirming it into smokebomb when i am trying to pressure.

yeah but in matches I see TOP LEVEL smokes throw this out there because they thought it was relatively safe. Not a single one of you can tell me other wise. You've never been punished for doing it... because only a poke normally will hit...
Now I blow it up, and if you smoke away.. I blow that up too (I have slide). Certain characters gain a huge advantage from this in the overall footsie game.
You thought Johnny Cage was bad before....

 

[cgerrr]

Someone said it before:

CROSSJUMP (jump forward) after blocked b32: why complicate?

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Someone said it before:

CROSSJUMP (jump forward) after blocked b32: why complicate?

if i'm not mistaken... it isn't safe if the Smoke player reads it. i'm completely safe taking a step after b2,3.
btw... this isn't complicated... this is easier than jumping really... I don't have to read anything... just step back and react.

 

[smokey]

Nice tech, can you test now that if im not point blank, this whole -8 business from b2,3 is really not that punishable. People jumping out of it on reaction to b2,3 have never punished me unless they have a divekick or instant teleport, and like sektor and quan chi will get pulled out of the ground by the smokebomb sometimes so its still kinda unreliable.

If im not mistaken though, smokebomb on block can be punished by alot of the cast, to the point where throwing it out on block even once will get you blown up and scared to do it again.

Im pretty sure that from point blank, b2,3 smokebomb has been punished by sektor and cyrax and even nightwolf.

Somberness can you give a figure for a blocked smokebomb please, it would clear my head of a few things EDIT: Nevermind i checked the later posts in the frame data thread, been updated this weekend, you are our hero!


Btw smoke players, how often do people even block b2? This far in the game and people still hate those 1% pokes so much that a 100% combo is favourable.

 

[Temjiin]

Temjiin showed me this several weeks ago. It's cool, but as mentioned, if I use a B2 3, it's very easy for me to see whether or not the opponent is blocking. If he is, then I can hitconfirm into something else. That, or nothing at all. Very rarely do I use B2 3~SB while my opponent is on guard.

I will say one thing: if people master this, they won't have to respect the SB at all, which makes punishing other specials after B2 3 (i.e. Smoke Towards) a lot easier.

Just to say I gave you the credit Charlie! Also, y u no post this earlier?