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Strategy Punishing Kabal's 'safe' moves

Relaxedstate

PTH|RM Relaxedstate
Premium Supporter
I thought this video deserved it's own thread before it was lost as it is a very good display on how to punish Kabals' buzz saw.

http://testyourmight.com/media/mk9-punishing-kabal-s-buzzsaw.1009/

Thanks and credit to Kakashi and @ Ariel mk for making and uploading it.

It appears that the saw blades may actually be -13 on block letting charecters like ermac punish with lift.


On another note: I want to bring up some discussion on Kabals f4. Quite possibly one of the best normals in the game and a 9 frame move that can keep most people in check from mashing buttons after a blocked move.

I think most people know that after a f4ndc, Kabals pressure game is effectively over since he is at negative 5 frames afterwards.

What most people do not know however is that there is a 6 frame gap between F4 knee, and the Nomad Dash. What this means is that anyone with a 6 frame poke, or say Kung Laos spin. Can blow this up if you can pull of a just frame punish. Being able to interrupt this fantastic normal can really damage his ability to check you with f4 in certain scenarios.

It is not that game altering, but will definitely help certain characters deal with this obnoxious bv. stop RESPECTING him!

Edit: ill try and get some video of interrupting his nomad dash shenanigans.
 
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Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
i Can F4 punish with Skarlet which is a 13f move, so its possible that is -14 or realy -13 exactly
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
they are probably canceling f4ndc into d3
No, i've tried tried from the same exact setup on this vid this mourning (with a partner), and i could F4 punish, 12f punish and (10f punish with some effort) all of them with a full combo.

I will try to make a video.

however, if kabal use a buzzsaw without the string it has a longer pushback that Skarlet can't punish with any move besides the 10f if she blocks from really up close.
 

Ariel MK

Noob
No, i've tried tried from the same exact setup on this vid this mourning (with a partner), and i could F4 punish, 12f punish and (10f punish with some effort) all of them with a full combo.

I will try to make a video.

however, if kabal use a buzzsaw without the string it has a longer pushback that Skarlet can't punish with any move besides the 10f if she blocks from really up close.
It would be nice to contribute, get the video friend, the more things will be better met.:D
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Calculation of advantage for NDC should use 17 for minimum duration of the ND as you cant do another normal or block until after the 17th frame.

Going for a D1 between F4 and ND is not something i'd recommend unless they have something like kenshi's D1 shoulder. If the kabal does F4NDC and you do your D1, you'll get punished by a F4. Not to mention the reward for hitting a D1 is not worth the risk at all in this situation. You are guessing he is going to do ND and also let it rip, if so you are better off holding block and punishing. It's not a good way to cover multiple options so you might as well just take the guess and go for something that is more rewarding. Also, D1-ing between F4 and ND would only work on P1 side. If I was a kabal player i'd be hoping to god that people would start D1-ing after I F4.
 

Relaxedstate

PTH|RM Relaxedstate
Premium Supporter
Oh you mean when you don't cancel nomad dash?
Yeah. But the gap exists whether they cancel the ND or let it go ( I think) can be interrupted. I think this is important to know in say the kunglao kabal match up, because spin become ever more threatening. d1 are a bit more risky though because if you fuck up your dead lol. Dat high level shit

@ lulzlou thanks for updating your thread to include the gap. We need to get the word out there!
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
I honestly don't get why so many players get so worked up about their character not being able to punish the buzzsaw, it's a 12% techable knockdown, why should it be universally full combo punishable? Seems everyone wants everything Kabal has nerfed into the ground just because the Kabal matchup isn't handed to them on a silver platter.

Sometimes you have to put your own fundamental initiative before frame data, I remember when everyone thought Kenshi's F22B1 was -17 on block, got blown up trying to punish it and it didn't occur to anyone Somberness may have made a mistake, he's just as human as the rest of us.
 

Lulzlou

Noob
I honestly don't get why so many players get so worked up about their character not being able to punish the buzzsaw, it's a 12% techable knockdown, why should it be universally full combo punishable? Seems everyone wants everything Kabal has nerfed into the ground just because the Kabal matchup isn't handed to them on a silver platter.

Sometimes you have to put your own fundamental initiative before frame data, I remember when everyone thought Kenshi's F22B1 was -17, got blown up trying to punish it and it didn't occur to anyone Somberness may have made a mistake, he's just as human as the rest of us.
 
I honestly don't get why so many players get so worked up about their character not being able to punish the buzzsaw, it's a 12% techable knockdown, why should it be universally full combo punishable? Seems everyone wants everything Kabal has nerfed into the ground just because the Kabal matchup isn't handed to them on a silver platter.

Sometimes you have to put your own fundamental initiative before frame data, I remember when everyone thought Kenshi's F22B1 was -17 on block, got blown up trying to punish it and it didn't occur to anyone Somberness may have made a mistake, he's just as human as the rest of us.
to me saw is what puts him over the top. It's not Ndc or iagb it s all that WITH ground saw. A low projectile With that much push back on block and hit is stupid given all his other tools. I feel it should be combo punishable.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
to me saw is what puts him over the top. It's not Ndc or iagb it s all that WITH ground saw. A low projectile With that much push back on block and hit is stupid given all his other tools. I feel it should be combo punishable.
Fair opinion. I was more directing my comment at the idea that Kabal has zero holes whatsoever and making buzzsaw hit high would nullify his rushdown. I agree he doesn't need it but his rushdown should be addressed first and foremost if he ever were to be patched.
 

Axel_Redd

Vampire Jesus....he wants YOUR blood now!!
wait what??? im confused if Kabal is at -5 after a f4NDC how the hell can lao punish inbetween with a 6 frame spin ??


also,how could buzzsaw hitting mid nullify his rushdown? he can still NDC you to death. However i would say that if it were made to mid it should be safer on block then.
 

Skitzo

Noob
wait what??? im confused if Kabal is at -5 after a f4NDC how the hell can lao punish inbetween with a 6 frame spin ??
It's a gap

-5 on block, 6f gap. like his b1*21 string

Please read the thread, the posts with answers are literally above yours
 

Lulzlou

Noob
wait what??? im confused if Kabal is at -5 after a f4NDC how the hell can lao punish inbetween with a 6 frame spin ??
>_> F4 has a cancel advantage of +12. Nomad Dash has a start up of 18 making it a 6frame gap.

If you don't really understand frame data well then this is the simple version. If the kabal player commits to the dash Lao can spin out of it. The spin can be block if the kabal player decides to cancel it instead.
 

Axel_Redd

Vampire Jesus....he wants YOUR blood now!!
>_> F4 has a cancel advantage of +12. Nomad Dash has a start up of 18 making it a 6frame gap.

If you don't really understand frame data well then this is the simple version. If the kabal player commits to the dash Lao can spin out of it. The spin can be block if the kabal player decides to cancel it instead.
thats what i was saying, i thought he meant that if u actually perform the NDC after f4 and block you could still be spinned. But ur still only -5, so seeing has how spin is 6 frames it still couldn't just frame punish. thats what i got from the post that was made o-o
 

coolwhip

Noob
thats what i was saying, i thought he meant that if u actually perform the NDC after f4 and block ur still only -5, so seeing has how spin is 6 frames it still couldn't just frame punish. thats what i got from the post that was made o-o
You're still not getting it.

Yes, if he performs the NDC after F4 on block he's only -5, meaning you can't spin it. However, you can spin IN BETWEEN (in other words, you spin before he can fully complete his ND, because there's a 6 frame gap between F4 and ND).
 

Axel_Redd

Vampire Jesus....he wants YOUR blood now!!
You're still not getting it.

Yes, if he performs the NDC after F4 on block he's only -5, meaning you can't spin it. However, you can spin IN BETWEEN the F4 and NDC (in other words, you spin before he can fully complete his NDC, before he's -5 on block), because there's a 6 frame gap between F4 and NDC .
your saying if he doesn't cancel the Nomad Dash into block?
 

Skitzo

Noob
your saying if he doesn't cancel the Nomad Dash into block?
lol really? That was the most perfect explanation/answer you can get.

No, the gap is there no matter what

a 6fd1 can interupt it

the whole thing looks like:
f4-6f gap-INPUT ND
 

Axel_Redd

Vampire Jesus....he wants YOUR blood now!!
you guys sayin the moment kung lao sees that f4 on block he can spin you if he reacts and theres nothing you can do? (besides ex nomad dash)