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Proposed Changes to Ivy

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
So why are we buffing literally everything on a not that terrible character? D2 buff in theory is like "Yea totally make her AAs better, this makes sense, her AAs are ass" but she is supposed to control the ground heavily so just giving her an 11f gigantic D2 seems...a bit much? I would buff her A2A game if anything, more commitment on her part but still solid.

Why are we giving her a completely new move that...just does the same thing as command grab? You want her to have a restanding move with the hitbox and startup of her super that restands? AND give her an 11f D2 on top of that? You see the issue here? She is clearly, VERY clearly, supposed to have lower quality AA options and while I agree theyre a bit too low quality you're turning her into a "you can never jump in on me ever" kind of character and when you have that+an actualy solid ground game you are creating an extremely unfun "I do everything" kind of character.

D1 speed is eh, she's a defensive/footsies character so a faster D1 could be in order.

The bed of thorns stopping jumps and dashes makes me want to vomit considering youre just asking for a better version of Swamp Thing's trait while also actually having good grounded buttons which essentially means, for not resource investment from you, you create a terrifying prison for a lot of characters.

Trait doesn't need any buffs it's literally the best thing she has lol.

All these changes by themselves is like whatever (except adding that new move, stop just stop on that one youre insane) but you smash them all at once on her you're going to be making a character everyone is going to fucking hate. She's not even that bad atm just up her A2A game, give her a better D1, tbh give her the ability to Datura off D1 or Drill off D1 and be done with it.
Just so we’re clear, don’t include me in this nonsense lol because I didn’t ask for any of that.

I’ve ALWAYS said if they made her d2 faster, then they would need to shave off the length of it, or make it super punishable on block. It doesn’t need to be that fast, that active, have that reach and only be -10. That’s ridiculous. But she does need an AA tho.

Bitey bash is pretty ass tho man. It’s worse than her already mediocre wakeup (kiss). There’s absolutely no reason to use it in combos, like ever. There’s no reason to wake up with it when you can avoid it the same way you can avoid kiss, while kiss does much more on hit. It being +2 is nice, but too bad there’s pushback and she can’t really follow up with anything except for a d1 that can be backdashed or armored. And on top of all that, it’s unsafe. The only good thing about it is it’s 9f, so she has an option after d1, but even then, the risk reward is totally not in her favor due to it being meh on hit and punishable on block.

She needs a 6f d1. I’m glad you agree with that. If not that, give it more hit advantage that way she can link a drill and actually have a good d1 punish option.

Them asking for bed of thorns to stop jumps and stuff is ridiculous lol. I always said she doesn’t need that because she’ll basically have swamps trait for free and that isn’t fair at all. I proposed for the regular version to be as quick and as damaging as the MB version, and for the MB version to be revamped into a captive move, similar to Colds MB ice puddle. Either way, something needs to be done about thorns because it’s ass.

Trait ruins our advantages on block and hit and leaves us punishable on moves that should never be punished, or gives us gaps that are actually non existent. I’ve had my 213 punished because of trait. 213 is +1. It wouldn’t be a buff, it’s a fix.
 
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CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
Just so we’re clear, don’t include me in this nonsense lol because I didn’t ask for any of that.

I’ve ALWAYS said if they made her d2 faster, then they would need to shave off the length of it, or make it super punishable on block. It doesn’t need to be that fast, that active, have that reach and only be -10. That’s ridiculous. But she does need an AA tho.

Bitey bash is pretty ass tho man. It’s worse than her already mediocre wakeup (kiss). There’s absolutely no reason to use it in combos, like ever. There’s no reason to wake up with it when you can avoid it the same way you can avoid kiss, while kiss does much more on hit. It being +2 is nice, but too bad there’s pushback and she can’t really follow up with anything except for a d1 that can be backdashed or armored. And on top of all that, it’s unsafe. The only good thing about it is it’s 9f, so she has an option after d1, but even then, the risk reward is totally not in her favor due to it being meh on hit and punishable on block.

She needs a 6f d1. I’m glad you agree with that. If not that, give it more hit advantage that way she can link a drill and actually have a good d1 punish option.

Them asking for bed of thorns to stop jumps and stuff is ridiculous lol. I always said she doesn’t need that because she’ll basically have swamps trait for free and that isn’t fair at all. I proposed for the regular version to be as quick and as damaging as the MB version, and for the MB version to be revamped into a captive move, similar to Colds MB ice puddle. Either way, something needs to be done about thorns because it’s ass.

Trait ruins our advantages on block and hit and leaves us punishable on moves that should never be punished, or gives us gaps that are actually non existent. I’ve had my 213 punished because of trait. 213 is +1. It wouldn’t be a buff, it’s a fix.
yea I know YOURE sane
 
So why are we buffing literally everything on a not that terrible character? D2 buff in theory is like "Yea totally make her AAs better, this makes sense, her AAs are ass" but she is supposed to control the ground heavily so just giving her an 11f gigantic D2 seems...a bit much? I would buff her A2A game if anything, more commitment on her part but still solid.

Why are we giving her a completely new move that...just does the same thing as command grab? You want her to have a restanding move with the hitbox and startup of her super that restands? AND give her an 11f D2 on top of that? You see the issue here? She is clearly, VERY clearly, supposed to have lower quality AA options and while I agree theyre a bit too low quality you're turning her into a "you can never jump in on me ever" kind of character and when you have that+an actualy solid ground game you are creating an extremely unfun "I do everything" kind of character.

D1 speed is eh, she's a defensive/footsies character so a faster D1 could be in order.

The bed of thorns stopping jumps and dashes makes me want to vomit considering youre just asking for a better version of Swamp Thing's trait while also actually having good grounded buttons which essentially means, for not resource investment from you, you create a terrifying prison for a lot of characters.

Trait doesn't need any buffs it's literally the best thing she has lol.

All these changes by themselves is like whatever (except adding that new move, stop just stop on that one youre insane) but you smash them all at once on her you're going to be making a character everyone is going to fucking hate. She's not even that bad atm just up her A2A game, give her a better D1, tbh give her the ability to Datura off D1 or Drill off D1 and be done with it.
i literally made aWHOLE SERIES on what’s wrong with nightshade clearly you didn’t watch it or play enough ivy to understand... and clearly the only people who complain about ivy are the people who don’t know the matchu
yea I know YOURE sane
yes because giving her a low special like cold which will giver her hard to blockables and way of keeping the opponent from getting near her yes sounds sane... you know what give it to her swampthing is going to have a grand ole time lol
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
i literally made aWHOLE SERIES on what’s wrong with nightshade clearly you didn’t watch it or play enough ivy to understand... and clearly the only people who complain about ivy are the people who don’t know the matchu

yes because giving her a low special like cold which will giver her hard to blockables and way of keeping the opponent from getting near her yes sounds sane... you know what give it to her swampthing is going to have a grand ole time lol
Who said it has to be a low?

And she already has a hard to blockable lol. She’s a zoner so her job is to keep opponents away from her so you don’t make much sense right now.

You guys are asking for her thorns to do the exact same thing as Swamps Trait. That’s dumb lol she doesn’t need that and it would be completely unfair for her to have that available at all times while Swamp has it as a trait.
 
Who said it has to be a low?

And she already has a hard to blockable lol. She’s a zoner so her job is to keep opponents away from her so you don’t make much sense right now.

You guys are asking for her thorns to do the exact same thing as Swamps Trait. That’s dumb lol she doesn’t need that and it would be completely unfair for her to have that available at all times while Swamp has it as a trait.
Yes because seeds the one that takes longer to get out than nightshade is free... even though atom does the same thing all of a sudden it’s a big deal. y’all are sitting here saying ivy should control the ground and she’s not meant to control the air but she shouldn’t have something that will keep them on the ground since she shouldn’t have a anti air... and then it wouldn’t be a trap if it’s a mid... captain cold is a low... molten trap low...doesn’t make sense to be a mid
 

DavesHotnJuicy

jmack_215
Maybe make the tracking on trait a little better. At full screen sometimes it Will whiff completely. Doesn’t happen often but it sucks when it does
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Yes because seeds the one that takes longer to get out than nightshade is free... even though atom does the same thing all of a sudden it’s a big deal. y’all are sitting here saying ivy should control the ground and she’s not meant to control the air but she shouldn’t have something that will keep them on the ground since she shouldn’t have a anti air... and then it wouldn’t be a trap if it’s a mid... captain cold is a low... molten trap low...doesn’t make sense to be a mid
...

You and others are asking for thorns to be sped up, do more damage and stop the opponent from jumping/dashing. That is the equivalent of swamps trait. He has to wait to use his while she’ll be able to do hers whenever she wants. THAT’S NOT FAIR nor does she need that.

I agree that thorns needs a change. I’ve been saying this since before the first patch. Turning it into swamps trait isn’t the change tho.

And if it became a low trap that causes hard to blockables, so be it. She wouldn’t be the first character in the game to have one. She already has one now
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
i literally made aWHOLE SERIES on what’s wrong with nightshade clearly you didn’t watch it or play enough ivy to understand... and clearly the only people who complain about ivy are the people who don’t know the matchu

yes because giving her a low special like cold which will giver her hard to blockables and way of keeping the opponent from getting near her yes sounds sane... you know what give it to her swampthing is going to have a grand ole time lol
I know the matchup, don't have a single issue with it lol the stuff youre asking for is still kind of absurd.
 
...

You and others are asking for thorns to be sped up, do more damage and stop the opponent from jumping/dashing. That is the equivalent of swamps trait. He has to wait to use his while she’ll be able to do hers whenever she wants. THAT’S NOT FAIR nor does she need that.

I agree that thorns needs a change. I’ve been saying this since before the first patch. Turning it into swamps trait isn’t the change tho.

And if it became a low trap that causes hard to blockables, so be it. She wouldn’t be the first character in the game to have one. She already has one now
Lol because burrow is a reliable hard to blockable but it’s whatever I have no Idea what I’m talking about. You clearly do
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Lol because burrow is a reliable hard to blockable but it’s whatever I have no Idea what I’m talking about. You clearly do
Get out your feelings. I never said you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Some of the stuff you’re asking for I agree with, especially the 6f d1. Giving her Abigail’s Garden isn’t one of them tho.

And granted that I hit people with it all the time, and I’ve seen others do it as well, yea, it’s pretty reliable
 

Lokheit

Noob
R you kidding me? "need a serious overhaul and change in philosofy (she was presented by the devs as a zoner LOL)." - she is great designed, her zoning is fine, vine drills are meant to put fear in opponent and outzone zoners, but not to spam, and ~180 chip dmg with yoshi+drills is god damn good, i don't want her zoning to become as brain dead as dr Fate or Starfire. And her move set is decent too. Walk speed - godlike, b2d2 - godlike, f3.... The thing is that Ivy is absolutely neutral based char, so to open some one you need to bait, condition them, overall - just over play your opponent.
Her normals are good, but sure, all Ivy specialists know what she really needs:
Usable AA
Better wake up game (dbf1 is still much better than df2, if it was safe at least....)
EX Yo-yo not only to be unbackdashable, but also not to push back opponents, since they can just punish you because last couple of hit do not connect (especially against CW and SG, don't know why)
And of course, NRS, please, give us a least 1 reason to use bed of thorns :(
When I said she was presented as a zoner I mean that the guy that designed her said it during her presentation design. That speaks volumes about how there is something wrong about her design because as you said she's really a neutral character. I don't want her to be a zoner, just stated the fact that she's supposedy designed trying to make her one.

Vine Drills puts fear on very few characters (and the damage is ridiculously low for such a slow move) and very few people that knows how to play the game stands for the trait chip damage and know how to work around it instead (even an opponent as pathetic as AI on normal difficulty knows how to work around it lol). And the one thing where it could really shine (setups) is completly destroyed with push block.

Also worth noting, her trait is so badly designed that there are a lot of situations where it works against her. 2 necessary changes would be for it to not interrupt grab animations (grab, kiss and B2D3Throw) AND either getting better hit and block advantage OR don't replace the current advantage if it's better (it stops a lot of combos from continuing and makes opponent punish you on safe on block moves). Pushblock only removing half of the bar would be huge too, but the other 2 changes are completly necessary.

B2D2 is very good in neutral (though combined with the rest of the moves results on a lot of unnecessary directional inputs that are there because potato) though there are better moves with better follow ups in the game, but yeah, great for footsies. F3 is a great tool too.

But the rest of her moveset... not a fast enough punisher, a lot of highs that should be mids, really bad anti-airs...

Datura is clunky as f**, learning how to pressure with it is not worth the investment once you realize that a little matchup knowledge and the opponent will totally punish you for trying it, getting bigger rewards than you for trying to use it. The way you input and control the Datura makes a lot of things unnecessarily hard (from the most basic combos to trying to pressure with it).

Datura and Kiss are basically her only decent moves and both have huge flaws (with kiss having the same weakness every high throw has in this game: holding low evades throws and blocks mids unlike MK where you had to guess...). Drill is pretty meh against more than half of the cast, it's decent against a few though.

Bark Skin is used in a couple of matchups but it's really slow and you almost don't notice its effect (it reduced a lot more damage during her presentation stream and was nerfed before release) and Thorns is hands down the worst move in the game and it's not even close. Both should be faster and add some utility because Ivy's WHOLE GAME is B2 and F3, she's a one trick pony and opponents see her coming from a mile away (and many aren't even bothered by her one trick).

When half of the specials aren't used during whole games, you know there is something wrong. Either remove them if they weren't necessary to make her a good character or make them useful.
 
Just give her the Killer Frost slide (Flow earth ability) :DOGE it's already one of her unlockable ability so there won't be too much work :DOGE:DOGE:DOGE
 
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And please change the input of B2D2 into B22, dear god NRS, you really know how to make the most beautiful girl in Injustice 2 difficult to play as hell, and ruin our DC's fan experience
 

Wigy

There it is...
I keep saying this in balance threads that from a design standpoint that theres no incentive to play certain characters cause they’re just blown out the water by characters with 1% the execution.

Nice to see the ivy community all saying the same thing.

Why do funky ass d2dd1 inputs into an unsafe starter when you can just spank out b12 breath, f23 or f12 trait.

I like niche execution characters but theres charactets that can zone and play footsie better with way less execution and then gets clapped on knockdown. Whats the point.
 
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Vex

Noob
Bed of Thorns

- Increase the Damage by 2x

- Prevent opponents from jumping or dashing

- Decrease the startup to the meterburn version

Rhytidome Skin

- Reduced the recovery from 50 to 38-40

Chompy and Bitey Bash

- Remove

Pheromone Dust

- Same as her ultimate but it’s a restand that doesn’t grab the opponent

- Meter burning allows you to follow up with a combo but not as much hit advantage as her grab

Datura Hammer

- Can no longer Back dash out of Datura Hammer Meter burn

Night Shade

- Increase the Hit and Block Advantage

Up Rooted (D2)

- Decreased the start up from 16 to 11

Snap Trap (D1)

- Decreased the start up from 7 to 6

Mistletoe (U2)

- Fix the hit box to hit ducking opponents
WHO??


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What ivy mopped u, ohh wait I know who, lil o me. Ooooo such a wonderful 10-0
Wasnt using my main kiddo. i only used flash and manta. my manta was ass back then lol i didnt know the ivy flash mu. lol if we take a serious set you would probably just go counter picks cuz u cant take a loss. YOU HAVE PROBLEMS KID. YOU ALMOST 1-0 YOUR OWN LIFE OVER A GAME HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
 
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Jinxx

9 Lives
Wasnt using my main kiddo. i only used flash and manta. my manta was ass back then lol i didnt know the ivy flash mu. lol if we take a serious set you would probably just go counter picks cuz u cant take a loss. YOU HAVE PROBLEMS KID. YOU ALMOST 1-0 YOUR OWN LIFE OVER A GAME HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
???????????either way I would still 10-0 u
 
When I said she was presented as a zoner I mean that the guy that designed her said it during her presentation design. That speaks volumes about how there is something wrong about her design because as you said she's really a neutral character. I don't want her to be a zoner, just stated the fact that she's supposedy designed trying to make her one.
Oh, i probably misunderstood you mate, sorry