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General/Other - Acidic Proposed Acidic Balance Changes

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
Hello, This is my first official thread on TYM and I really wanted to discuss Acidic changes. The best variation in the game most certainly will be hit in the upcoming patch (if there is one) and I think my changes won't kill the character, but will make him less of a juggernaut against the cast.

REMINDER- This is only Universal and Acidic. I haven't played /played against the others to make a fair judgement.

- Overhead flip is now -8 on block.

This is not a big deal but I have found that in some ranges, The supposed "guranteed" Lao spin can't punish the flip. Yeah, shocking. It seems at max range Alien might be -6 or -5. So i think -8 should get rid of that.

- Crawl and EX Crawl have wider punish windows.

For a 9 frame mid that switches sides and is plus on hit, it sounds like an unarmored version of subs slide. But unlike sub's slide it activates quick but feels like it recovers too fast. If you abolutely expect it, you will punish it, but there should be time for reaction. Not like Quan's Trance reaction though :DOGE

- Pounce and EX pounce have wider punish windows

Same thing above, slower than crawl, but still recovers seemingly fast (AT LEAST TO ME)

- Slight Acid Damage Tick Nerf

This is the most requested one, and I do have to agree. At some points with certain ticks, Alien's grab could go up to 27% O_O. That's a little too much and slight toning is much needed.

- B3 does not Jail into specials anymore

The one thing that made me laugh about Alien is that besides the overused f134, b3 and f4, everything else has a gap in it that you can armor. They made all his 50 50s jail, but left the other strings free. I feel that since it has the longest range, b3 should not jail from anywhere in the screen to a special. Its a 50 50 to another 50 50. If you guess right, you should have the gap to punish.

- Hitbox on Low tail Increased

This low profiling low that says -15 but feels -1 is not fun to mess with. Its punish window depends on if you see it coming, and his lowered hitbox makes it harder for people with "meh" mids or just highs to punish him. That should be addressed.

- 1% more damage to alien on his puddles.

He barely hurts himself to put on a puddle that counts as a hit and chips shitloads of life away from you, he should at least dig deeper in to his head for the damage huh?

- D4 slightly less plus on hit

- Range Nerf to Jumping in 2

This move is probably why I realized Alien needs a strong normalization. Its absolutely sickening how far it goes and how deep it hits, with a slightly disjointed hitbox. It looks like it should be tarkatan exclusive, but it would be still too broken. Nerf.

- No armor on Air EX Flip

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Takeda's ex air flip has armor. Why should Alien get a hit of armor on an air move while people try to AA him and get hit for succeeding. Flip should have armor on the one place it needs it, on the ground.

Those are my ideas. Let me know what you think! Hopefully I didn't make him the next Triborg :p
 
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hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
Tag Any Acidic players if you want and if you agree to the list of changes

@SonicFox5000 @ForeverKing @Any Acidic player
 
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the.hamburglar

Alien keeps me up at night
I agree with most but Ive never seen his acid throw go to 27%, 23 at most but i mean, his variation is based off acid dot so lets not kill that.
Also I know with the restand, its plus 1 on hit unless they're higher up so does that jail into anything, or can you armor? Just for research
 

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
Also I know with the restand, its plus 1 on hit unless they're higher up so does that jail into anything, or can you armor? Just for research
Sonic Fox said at highest point it's +18 on hit, in some bnb he does it's around +10
One more nerf I like to add is reduce the range of his jump 3 or don't allow him to use his tail when jumping with that shit. Seriously, like safe air tail flip and fullscreen air acid isn't enough, he needs fullscreen jump 3 to play footsie game
 

myri

Time Warrior
The tick damage needs to be seriously reduced in a huge way. When characters like Bo have ways of doing tick damage that scales the way it does I can't see why acidic should just be free from that.

Also the tail should have a hitbox, weapon hitboxes are kinda understandable because they aren't the actual body of a character but Alien's tail is part of him, it should get hit/frozen.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
I suggest we replace the moves that use acid and replace them up with moves that stuff its tail up its keister.
 

the.hamburglar

Alien keeps me up at night
i think that a viable option is to not let the acid stack but refresh instead of stack because if you reduce the overall damage, it just kind if kills the DOT potential and reason youd choose the variation
 

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
Oh man I forgot his jumping in 2. That definitely needs a range nerf also. It's the new and improved Lao JI2

- Also no armor on the Air version of EX Flip

EDIT- Explanations Added Above
 
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hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
Also the tail should have a hitbox, weapon hitboxes are kinda understandable because they aren't the actual body of a character but Alien's tail is part of him, it should get hit/frozen.
I agree with this, but I didnt want to propose this since it would be a huge change for the game. Dvorah and Alien mainly would be completely changed. Sub Zero would dominate the matchups. But it does makes total sense. Body extensions should have hitboxes.
 

the.hamburglar

Alien keeps me up at night
Oh man I forgot his jumping in 2. That definitely needs a range nerf also. It's the new and improved Lao JI2

- Also no armor on the Air version of EX Flip

EDIT- Explanations Added Above
So reduce acid damage, make overhead, low be a lot more unsafe, take his only good armor and throw that away as a wake up, takedas flip does have armor and dont compare the two when they are different moves, you dont use takedas flip as a pressure tool in the neutral that often. Also lower his damage? It really sounds like you want to kill Acidic rather than "Normalize"
E: disregard the takeda air flip, I read regular ex flip not air flip, my fault but im not sure if ex air flip from takeda is armored.
 

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
So reduce acid damage, make overhead, low be a lot more unsafe, take his only good armor and throw that away as a wake up, takedas flip does have armor and dont compare the two when they are different moves, you dont use takedas flip as a pressure tool in the neutral that often. Also lower his damage? It really sounds like you want to kill Acidic rather than "Normalize"
E: disregard the takeda air flip, I read regular ex flip not air flip, my fault but im not sure if ex air flip from takeda is armored.
1- I never said lower his damage, only slightly reduce his acid ticks
2- I guess EX Air flip having armor can be justified if takeda's has armor in the air which I'm not sure it does.
3- I never made the overhead "a lot more unsafe". -8 is barely any different only now, six frame reversals are consistent.
4- Low tail low profiles and its a tight punish window unless you have a johnny f3 or a lao f2 on reaction to it. For a move that's meant to be unsafe I think it should be properly punishable by the fastest jabs characters have that are mostly highs.

I don't think my list of changes are killing the character at all, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
i don't agree with making meterless tailflip more unsafe, and i don't like the b3 jailing into specials being removed. Other than that im okay with it. tho he doesnt need his crawl or pounce made even more unsafe....just stop sleeping! lol.
 

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
i don't agree with making meterless tailflip more unsafe, and i don't like the b3 jailing into specials being removed. Other than that im okay with it. tho he doesnt need his crawl or pounce made even more unsafe....just stop sleeping! lol.
The reason for it being -8 is that these proposed "guranteed" Lao spin punished dont work at max range. I have labbed them and I have successfully blocked them. And where in the world is -8 from -7 considered more unsafe? I don't think it would be any different.

IMO b3 should not jail as it is a 3/4 screen low that is comboable and jails off a jump in as well. His f4 would still jail but all his 50 50s shouldn't stay gapless. As b3 is the farthest reaching one (and might I add, its a chance for 2 50 50s) then you should get to armor.

i don't know. Crawl and Pounce seem to recover way too fast for my taste, especially crawl. I feel like they should be more punishable, but that's just me I guess lol
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
The reason for it being -8 is that these proposed "guranteed" Lao spin punished dont work at max range. I have labbed them and I have successfully blocked them. And where in the world is -8 from -7 considered more unsafe? I don't think it would be any different.

IMO b3 should not jail as it is a 3/4 screen low that is comboable and jails off a jump in as well. His f4 would still jail but all his 50 50s shouldn't stay gapless. As b3 is the farthest reaching one (and might I add, its a chance for 2 50 50s) then you should get to armor.

i don't know. Crawl and Pounce seem to recover way too fast for my taste, especially crawl. I feel like they should be more punishable, but that's just me I guess lol
and im saying it shouldnt be full combo punishable by most things, thats why it should stay -7, its a special that doesnt launch and only grants a knockdown, similar to reptiles meterless claw or flip. And i still say his b3 should jail because then armor would just nullify it way to hard, it has range but it also has pretty bad recovery if it whiffs, so making it not jail anything at all on top of that would be a bit too much.
 

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
and im saying it shouldnt be full combo punishable by most things, thats why it should stay -7, its a special that doesnt launch and only grants a knockdown, similar to reptiles meterless claw or flip. And i still say his b3 should jail because then armor would just nullify it way to hard, it has range but it also has pretty bad recovery if it whiffs, so making it not jail anything at all on top of that would be a bit too much.
what "most things"? Most seven frame specials should punish a -7 move on reversal, but don't if alien spaces it correctly. Even sometimes its tough to get the six frame d1 check mid match on the flip. That's unfair to Lao players who guess right but not get a punish because he was "a bit farther back". It should be consistent. At least make the move the same - frames from anywhere on the screen.

And no one will consistently one frame punish alien with seven frame jabs.
 

DDutchguy

Raiden enthusiast
tho he doesnt need his crawl or pounce made even more unsafe....just stop sleeping! lol.
Both moves have practically no blockstun so you really have to expect them in order to succesfully punish them. It has nothing to do with someone 'sleeping', it has to do with the like 1 frame of blockstun not allowing you to react fast enough.
 

Shade667

#StrongisthenewCute
Actually, Id be fine with bumping up acid blood to 2, or even 3% if it didnt kill alien.
K thnx.



Thematically i dont like it. It doesnt even look like aliens affected, not like when ferra tears into torrs shoulders or when kotal roars when he slices his chest. I dont think it should kill him.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
Both moves have practically no blockstun so you really have to expect them in order to succesfully punish them. It has nothing to do with someone 'sleeping', it has to do with the like 1 frame of blockstun not allowing you to react fast enough.
then give them a bit more block stun while still keeping the same negative frames so people have a bit more time to react :)
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
what "most things"? Most seven frame specials should punish a -7 move on reversal, but don't if alien spaces it correctly. Even sometimes its tough to get the six frame d1 check mid match on the flip. That's unfair to Lao players who guess right but not get a punish because he was "a bit farther back". It should be consistent. At least make the move the same - frames from anywhere on the screen.

And no one will consistently one frame punish alien with seven frame jabs.
What im trying to say is that EX tail flip is full combo punishable for a reason, its an armored launcher, normal tail flip on the other hand doesnt have that going for it, so i don't see an issue with it being not punishable.
 
Overhead flip should be something like -12 to -15. It's one of those moves like Takeda's flip or Liu Kang's Bruce Lee impression where it being safe doesn't make sense, like, look at the animation.

If D'Vorah does piss all tick damage in Venomous then I really don't see how or why Acidic gets to do the amount of damage it does.

And one thing you didn't mention that I think should be nerfed, acid shouldn't restand. I don't get why some moves that are basically projectiles do.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
Overhead flip should be something like -12 to -15. It's one of those moves like Takeda's flip or Liu Kang's Bruce Lee impression where it being safe doesn't make sense, like, look at the animation.

If D'Vorah does piss all tick damage in Venomous then I really don't see how or why Acidic gets to do the amount of damage it does.

And one thing you didn't mention that I think should be nerfed, acid shouldn't restand. I don't get why some moves that are basically projectiles do.
so much nope, to all of what you just said, except for the tick damage, but probably even that since im sure what your thinking of would make it extremely impotent.